The new Nomura?

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I mean first of all Nomura also co-created The World Ends With You, which is a good series.
Second of all, neither him nor Yoshida are as hands-on with the games they produce as people think. Yoshida has to approve everything, but the people designing the features and games are the ones who come up with stuff. He's also the main PR, which is a big part of the producer role. Just like Eiji Aonuma will be front and center in PR even though credits to how the latest Zeldas came out is credited to the director Hidemaro Fujibayashi and his team. But being the PR doesn't mean you created the games.



Excuses. PS5 obviously doesn't have PS4 or combined PS4-PC-Xbox numbers, but neither did PS1, 2 or 3 when their first final fantasy games came out and still sold as well or better than the company expected.

Final Fantasy VII, VIII, X, XII and even the oh-so-hated XIII sold systems. Final Fantasy XVI failing to do that is still attesting to how the brand fell from grace.

And before you go "but muh economy crisis/muh lower buying power", even PS5's current price in the current economy doesn't hold a candle to how overpriced PS3 was.

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I mean... Most people are waiting for a PS5 sale. Like, I won't be getting one until winter time as that's when the sales and bundles hit.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

I mean... Most people are waiting for a PS5 sale. Like, I won't be getting one until winter time as that's when the sales and bundles hit.

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Also how are people seriously trying to say that FFXVI didn't sold systems when it theoretically sold around 3 million PS5s outta of 38 million consoles shipped within this year with those sales figures?

Are people being just as mental and delusional as SquareEnix with expected sales?

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Let's keep it down to earth, let's talk that real ish; YoshiP hasn't done anything great since heavensward (maybe stormblood).

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I would say Shadowbringer was mostly great, gameplay did start taking on a downwards trend there but the writing was top tier. Too bad Ishikawa apparently is leaving the writing team...

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Has dawntrail showed you something that which gives you faith in his skill as a producer and director?

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To be fair, Dawntrail has shown nothing. All that seems to be out there at this time is that we're going into the New World. I'm sure the two upcoming fanfests and patches 6.5 and 6.55 will give more to work with and to dread.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

maybe Nier's producer, forget his name.

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the guy who always wears the moon from majora's mask on his head?
yesyesyesyes
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ro_cropped.jpg

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Also, Yoshi is not the new Nomura, he scrapped belts. ;)

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have ur +1 u fiend

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I would say Shadowbringer was mostly great, gameplay did start taking on a downwards trend there but the writing was top tier. Too bad Ishikawa apparently is leaving the writing team...

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To write FFXVII, maybe. Her sudden promotion follows the same pattern as Maehiro, when they started the pre-production of FFXVI.
Seems like they're mostly using XIV to train their future talents.

(Personally I'm hoping XVII won't be CBU3 at all, but the relative success of XVI might have sealed the deal already)

Not that I have a horse in this race because I consider BG3 to be one of the best games of all time and I still haven't played FFXVI because of console exclusive... but there is a lot of people ignoring obvious things.


1. Console exclusive. This objectively makes less sales than just a full release. Full stop. You're an idiot if you think otherwise.
Xbox and PC are massive portions of the market (with some saying PC is the biggest share). PC in particular is growing bigger each year due to lower entry costs and sheer amount of flexibility, so unless you can account for how many people just stopped buying consoles completely because they now have a gaming computer (like me) and then compare Playstation sales with games from 8 years ago it's pointless to do so.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Final Fantasy VII, VIII, X, XII and even the oh-so-hated XIII sold systems. Final Fantasy XVI failing to do that is still attesting to how the brand fell from grace.

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Absolutely. This is also part of the above problem and isn't indicative of XVI's individual quality. Square Enix as a whole has a bad reputation now so of course people aren't going to leap out of their seats to buy a Playstation 5 just for FFXVI after how XIII and XV were received.

2. FFXVI was released smack in the middle of a lot of highly anticipated games like Resident Evil 4, Tears of the Kingdom, Diablo 4, and Baldur's Gate 3. It's not super common to buy every single $60+ game that comes out, and those who do buy multiples still have to make choices.

3. Metacritic ratings are worthless. Multiple super beloved games like Nier and Silent Hill 2 are below 90. Bioshock 3 is rated above Bioshock. Multiple Madden and NFL games above Hades.

4. Just because another game does better doesn't make the "worse" game bad. Hades is better than Okami (imo) and Okami sold poorly, but Okami is not even CLOSE to being bad.

Combine Squeenix's low and deserved reputation following years of flops + console exclusivity + multiple great AAA games released within 3 - 4 months of each other its no wonder that sales are "low". But compared to other Squeenix games that have come out recently, the sales are great.
When CBU3 makes a game as soulless as KH3 then we can talk.

But even without playing FFXVI I can tell Baldur's Gate 3 is better. I would like more RPGs to take note of how much people like RPGs and turn-based. IG Persona wasn't enough to prove that.
I would kill for another turn-based FF that plays more like Baldur's Gate. Including the romance. :)
I will still probably enjoy FFXVI though. It looks decent and even my non-FFXIV friends loved it.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Also how are people seriously trying to say that FFXVI didn't sold systems when it theoretically sold around 3 million PS5s outta of 38 million consoles shipped within this year with those sales figures?

Are people being just as mental and delusional as SquareEnix with expected sales?

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FUD never changes…

I’m enjoying FF16 overall, but the boss fights do seem like knockoff soulslike slogs with a few QuickTime events to break up the monotony. At least there aren’t dodge rolls…

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Final Fantasy VII, VIII, X, XII and even the oh-so-hated XIII sold systems. Final Fantasy XVI failing to do that is still attesting to how the brand fell from grace.

And before you go "but muh economy crisis/muh lower buying power", even PS5's current price in the current economy doesn't hold a candle to how overpriced PS3 was.

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The thing is though, in addition to being mildly overpriced there's very little reason to actually get a PS5 at the moment. There's FF XVI, but aside from that what else is there? Being able to play FF14 better on a console? Sure games can sell systems, but I hardly think a single game is going to sell a console by itself. People didn't buy a PS3 to only play FF XIII, or a PS4 to only play FF XV. And people aren't going to buy a PS5 to only play FF XVI, they'll need a few more reasons to buy the system.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Also how are people seriously trying to say that FFXVI didn't sold systems when it theoretically sold around 3 million PS5s outta of 38 million consoles shipped within this year with those sales figures?

Are people being just as mental and delusional as SquareEnix with expected sales?

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38m is the number of PS5 sold to this day. That said, it did sell 19.1 million on 2022-2023 fiscal year (yeah, about half of its total sales), which ended in march 2023. And it's the year of the end of the lack of semiconductors and GoW: Ragnarok and its 11 millions sales. No infos for Q2 has been released (which is when FFXVI has been released).

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Console exclusive. This objectively makes less sales than just a full release. Full stop.

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Sony's first party titles would like a word. FF even had the whole "console warrior" aspect going for it but didn't seem to move people enough.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

People didn't buy a PS3 to only play FF XIII, or a PS4 to only play FF XV. And people aren't going to buy a PS5 to only play FF XVI

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I did buy a PS1 mostly for FF7 tho. The FF brand doesn't carry that weight anymore sadly.

As for main subject of the thread, with so many criticisms I can level at Nomura, at least I can tell from a mile away he's involved in something.
Can't say the same for Yoshi, beyond "tell Soken to go wild". He seems more of a project management kind of guy rather than a creative with a distinct signature.

I for one enjoyed FFXVI. Not the best FF sure, but for me it was the best since X (If we are not counting XIV).

As for Yoshi himself, I like him, he has done good things and his mindset seem more clear and ethical then a lot of big name people in the gaming industry. That said, I do always think people put him on too high of a pedestal after ARR. No producer, creative etc is gonna be perfect, they are gonna fail and do things one dislikes. Its human, and in the end he is there to make SE money. I see nothing about Dawntrail that would make me think any less of him, but we shall see.

Normra is... I love him and find myself fustrated by him haha. Not sure I would like to se ehim take over XIV. You know who I would? Yoko Taro. Yes, I liked the raids!

Yoship seemed more excited at caressing xbox's spokesperson for 30 minutes than about danwtrail; to me anyway.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

seriously trying to say that FFXVI didn't sold systems when it theoretically sold around 3 million PS5s

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This is about the most delusional take on the forums this week. Congratulations.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

38m is the number of PS5 sold to this day. That said, it did sell 19.1 million on 2022-2023 fiscal year (yeah, about half of its total sales), which ended in march 2023. And it's the year of the end of the lack of semiconductors and GoW: Ragnarok and its 11 millions sales. No infos for Q2 has been released (which is when FFXVI has been released).

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GoW Ragnarok shames FF16. Ragnarok was an actual good game worthy of being called a PS5 exclusive. FF16 is not.

I'm glad that the sales reflect the wide disparity in quality between the two games.

Never liked Nomura. Always hellbent on trying to make villains who aren't really villains. Take Organization 13? Was any of them ACTUALLY a villain after it was all said and done? I vaguely remember they all have some sort of "You should feel sorry for me" arc. Ascians? They are practically a straight rip of Organization 13. As soon as I saw those coats I knew there was going to be "Ok but they have a reason to be jerks and you should pity them". It pretty much ended exactly like that.

Frankly I'm glad the Ascians are done and over with. As much as I disliked Xenos at first...I rather have more like him than more like the Ascians.

At least Nomura games are fun to play and not just there to afk in :)

Nomura is someone with great ideas but can't execute them or he needs someone else to reign him in...similar to Hideo Kojima (love the guy but he needs someone to just tell him no sometimes) 15 took so long cause of his indecisions....KH3 was a mess or just spamming darkness darkness darkness loveless terms everywhere and it lost all meaning. FF7 remake while really good only really got there because his co-director stepped it and reigned it...now that said co-director is main directing part 2 because Nomura is now creative director...the man should of just stuck to drawing characters because at least they stood out the most lol.

Yoshi-P currently really only has 14 to his name he didn't direct 16 he only produced so its hard to compare them completely per say. I prefer Yoshis work so far to Nomura but not by much each talent they have is capable of mass screw up, however Yoshi has shown he will get the work done and his team are efficient under his leadership.....Nomura I think people just didn't want to say no to the guy or Nomura felt untouchable in some way. I just found that Toriyama is co-helping with 7 remake rebirth and that man directed the 13 trilogy...a cold chill down my spine lol.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

the guy who always wears the moon from majora's mask on his head?
yesyesyesyes
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ro_cropped.jpg



have ur +1 u fiend

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Actually... In a recent event he didn't have that mask on. Apparently someone misplaced it or lost it so he did the event with I think it was a creepy looking leprechaun head on lol.

FF16 sold extremely well first week. Something to be expected as the first next gen FF mainline title and all the media hype. Sales basically tanked the week afterwards. Essentially to me this indicates a few things. Trends with AAA title releases in general has resulted in the majority of gamers no longer preordering titles and also no longer paying actual attention to reviews from published "games experts". They're waiting for the titles to get in the hands of actual gamers to see how the game actually is and then deciding if they want to play it or not. In the case of FFXVI you had people that still did decide to purchase it but at the same time a substantial amount of people that chose to skip it because it wasn't the next gen FF title they were waiting for. It wasn't a JRPG, hell it wasn't even an RPG. It was a carbon copied action game attempting to write itself as western fantasy with a FF wrapper on it. Hardly anything FF was kept aside from impressive visuals and music. Final Fantasy as a series is fairly well known with changes/innovations with in game battle systems and it has had it's fair share of hits and misses. However in 16's case it wasn't a matter of innovating and more a matter of just grabbing and using what an entirely different game had. Something that was somewhat familiar with this title as well as the ARR reboot was essentially trying to turn FFXIV into WoW without it looking like WoW. And to many FF16 has simply indicated that SE is willing to throw aside a longtime loyal fanbase of customers in order to chase after the possibility of a quicker buck.

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Originally Posted by TheNight

This is about the most delusional take on the forums this week. Congratulations.

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Unless you're forgetting, the game is only available on one platform. And last time I checked it's a platform that not many people owned.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Actually... In a recent event he didn't have that mask on. Apparently someone misplaced it or lost it so he did the event with I think it was a creepy looking leprechaun head on lol.

FF16 sold extremely well first week. Something to be expected as the first next gen FF mainline title and all the media hype. Sales basically tanked the week afterwards. Essentially to me this indicates a few things. Trends with AAA title releases in general has resulted in the majority of gamers no longer preordering titles and also no longer paying actual attention to reviews from published "games experts". They're waiting for the titles to get in the hands of actual gamers to see how the game actually is and then deciding if they want to play it or not. In the case of FFXVI you had people that still did decide to purchase it but at the same time a substantial amount of people that chose to skip it because it wasn't the next gen FF title they were waiting for. It wasn't a JRPG, hell it wasn't even an RPG. It was a carbon copied action game attempting to write itself as western fantasy with a FF wrapper on it. Hardly anything FF was kept aside from impressive visuals and music. Final Fantasy as a series is fairly well known with changes/innovations with in game battle systems and it has had it's fair share of hits and misses. However in 16's case it wasn't a matter of innovating and more a matter of just grabbing and using what an entirely different game had. Something that was somewhat familiar with this title as well as the ARR reboot was essentially trying to turn FFXIV into WoW without it looking like WoW. And to many FF16 has simply indicated that SE is willing to throw aside a longtime loyal fanbase of customers in order to chase after the possibility of a quicker buck.

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We can criticize its lack of rpg elements but you can't fool anyone with trying to throw that tired old "they threw alongside their old fans".

Same people who said that when FFXV came, same people who said that when FFXIII came, same people who said that when FFXII came and same people said that when they did FFXI.

Can we please stop with the false fan base spokesperson about what FF is about? It's such a weak argument only used to try to validate your own biases.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

We can criticize its lack of rpg elements but you can't fool anyone with trying to throw that tired old "they threw alongside their old fans".

Same people who said that when FFXV came, same people who said that when FFXIII came, same people who said that when FFXII came and same people said that when they did FFXI.

Can we please stop with the false fan base spokesperson about what FF is about? It's such a weak argument only used to try to validate your own biases.

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You should really do something about that bad habit of yours where you resort to attempts and throwing mud at people when you can't articulate a proper counter argument.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

You should really do something about that bad habit of yours where you resort to attempts and throwing mud at people when you can't articulate a proper counter argument.

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For your information, I actually agree with most of your problems with FFXVI. Its only the last few sentences where you felt you had to justify it all that under a false pretense of the dumb "#NotMyFinalFantasy" movement that is permeating around.

Seriously, people are treating this whole thing as if its a political movement. Dont you see how stupid that is? Why cant it just be, "I didnt like this game"

Everything must belt?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Unless you're forgetting, the game is only available on one platform. And last time I checked it's a platform that not many people owned.

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https://gumlet.assettype.com/afkgami...e&enlarge=true

It's always weird to see a game so heavily trying to pander to a non-japanese audience but I can't even say this is new territory for SQ because Mystic Quest exists

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Excuses. PS5 obviously doesn't have PS4 or combined PS4-PC-Xbox numbers, but neither did PS1, 2 or 3 when their first final fantasy games came out and still sold as well or better than the company expected.
...
And before you go "but muh economy crisis/muh lower buying power", even PS5's current price in the current economy doesn't hold a candle to how overpriced PS3 was.

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You were right in your first paragraph, but this is a pretty bad take.

I didn't buy FF7:R. Know why? PS5 exclusivity and I don't have a PS5.
I didn't buy FF16. Know why? PS5 exclusivity and I don't have a PS5.

See a pattern?

I DID eventually get FF7:R when it came to PC, but mostly because I REALLY needed a diversion from irl around that time and I've long loved the series and world and was invested in it. I have no such ties to 16. I watched a Let's Play and will probably never buy it. I got FF15 on X-Box because I had an X-Box at the time. I got FF13 on an X-Box because I had an X-Box at the time.

SE is going to start losing a lot of money with those PS5 exclusives, and fast. But it's not an excuse. It's a valid comparison.

Even going back a ways, the PS1 was super cheap by the time FF8 and especially FF9 came out. The PS2 had done down in price by the time of FF11 and FF12. A lot of sales counts for them also include literal decades and often ports and remakes into the figures as well. A brand new game exclusive to a single console that had supply chain shortages, is around 2-3x as expensive as its competitors, in a world where many gamers have switched over completely to PC gaming and where the home country of the game release has it as the least owned and least played console? Yeah, that's not an excuse, that's entirely relevant.

And...X, sure, but 12 and 13? lol, no. Those weren't selling systems. FF7, 8, and X have that distinction, but the others likely do not. Not to the level you make it out. I got a PS2 for Kingdom Hearts, not FF12 or FF13, rofl. And know what system I played FF13 on? X-Box. For exactly the reason you mentioned - how overpriced PS3 was.

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Originally Posted by TheNight

And Cyberpunk also got 87 despite it being a disaster. Only games over 90 can even be plausibly considered as universally successful.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

As long as we're taking Metacritic seriously for some reason, let's look at the scores...

Heavensward: 86

Stormblood: 87

Shadowbringers: 90

Endwalker: 92

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Let it be known forevermore and throughout the land!
TheNight/Kiros/Titanmen/altarmy has declared that EW (and ShB) are considered universally successful as EW got over 90. ShB he might still wiggle out of since it wasn't "over 90", but EW at 92 is clearly "over 90", and thus "plausibly considered as universally successful".

TheNight has spoken!

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Originally Posted by Cach

I did buy a PS1 mostly for FF7 tho. The FF brand doesn't carry that weight anymore sadly.

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Not to speak for you personally, but keep in mind FF7 wasn't just a game, it was a huge jump in technology, visuals, and presentation. The polygonal characters, CG cinematics, and pre-rendered backgrounds blew people away at the time and were so iconic, they influenced basically every major RPG made for the next 5 or so years after it, and probably at least influenced games for a further decade.

It'd be kind of like comparing how many people watched "Solo: A Star Wars Story" to the amount that watched "A New Hope", or even "Return of the Jedi". Comparing something so groundbreaking (and lacking in direct competition) that it influenced all of pop culture and fans of the genera - and even somewhat related ones - for several generations...to something that was not? No matter how good 16 is, you can't make a jump in modern graphics on par with the jump between FF6 and FF7. For all that we laud graphics, FF14 1.0 was made 13 years ago and had graphics on par with modern releases (the one thing 1.0 is praised for somewhat consistently is its visuals...which were just so good at the time, most hardware couldn't RUN IT). The point being, "modern" graphics aren't really that different than graphics were a decade ago. Even the FF7:R jump from PS4 to PS5 graphics isn't as big as the SNES to PS1 jump of FF6 to FF7. And what's more, FF7:R already did it, so FF16 can't make the "jump" that its older brother already made first a year ago.

There just isn't really room for a technological jump on par with what FF7 had. FF7 and FFX both made similar jumps (in FFX's case, it was voice acting and moving out of pre-rendering and into outright polygonal worlds with fantastic fidelity a leap ahead of Banjo Kazooie or Perfect Dark, both considered pushing the prior generation's art and capabilities [doubly so since it was the N64's])

It's a pretty unfair comparison. If you want THAT comparison, the better take would be FF7:R. It made the huge tech and graphics jump, and also made what is probably a comparable gameplay jump as well, incorporating "autoattacks" (your basic button mashing attacks) vs spells/abilities (using gauge) to make a souped up, semi-live action version of FF7's menu and turn based combat system, and with a stylish flare (the echo and slow-mo when you pull up the menu).

...and FF7:R was a smashing success and probably WOULD have sold a massive amount of PS5s had there been any around to sell.

FF16 is far more like FF9 or FF13. Later arrivals that were more derivatives of what came before and didn't sell consoles so much as were bought by those who already bought them prior. But as noted, FF7:R could only sell so many consoles due to the shortages, so there's a far smaller pool of people.

And as Tsumdere said:

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

1. Console exclusive. This objectively makes less sales than just a full release. Full stop. You're an idiot if you think otherwise.
Xbox and PC are massive portions of the market (with some saying PC is the biggest share). PC in particular is growing bigger each year due to lower entry costs and sheer amount of flexibility, so unless you can account for how many people just stopped buying consoles completely because they now have a gaming computer (like me) and then compare Playstation sales with games from 8 years ago it's pointless to do so.

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I also was a person who had a PS1 and PS2 (and N64 and SNES), but now do all my gaming on PC. I have an X-Box next to my computer and the TV attached to it isn't even plugged in, and the last time I tried powering on the thing (after a year of not using it) it didn't turn on. I've completely left the console market, much less the PS5 market. People like me would have bought FF7 (and 8 and 9) on PS1 and FFX (and XII) on PS2 and FFXIII on PS3 (or X-Box, which I did on X-Box). But I don't even have a (working) X-Box at this point, and won't be buying more games for it anyway even if it did work. I only buy and play games on PC at this point, with RARE exceptions for Switch or Mobile.

So you can't look at PS1/2 sales numbers and say that FF16 should be matching those. The entire gamer landscape has shifted, PS5s are still both expensive and rare, and exclusivity like that is going to hamper sales. It's just not a tenable position to say they won't or don't.

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Originally Posted by Koros

waah waaah woo woo wahh

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/smooch
Love you too, buddy. But you still haven't proposed. I want a rock I can show off to the girls, not something you got out of a CrackerJack box, too! At least 3 months wage is the rule, and I know you're a moneybags with all those alts and RMT, so I'm expecting a big rock.

And glad we've cleared up that you think EW was a "universally successful" game.

Talk to you later, snookums.

You can see the creative bankruptcy in nearly every aspect of this game.
FFXIV needs a new lead designer and direction to move the game forward.

Just copy whatever "Mythic+" does well for Criterion, "Animal Crossing" and/or "Stardew Valley" does well for IS and "Hades" does well for EO.
Didn't play AC and SdV, but I assume that is what IS enjoyers expected.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Let it be known forevermore and throughout the land!
TheNight/Kiros/Titanmen/altarmy has declared that EW (and ShB) are considered universally successful as EW got over 90. ShB he might still wiggle out of since it wasn't "over 90", but EW at 92 is clearly "over 90", and thus "plausibly considered as universally successful".
TheNight has spoken!

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This is gold

As an aside, MMO's are a very different beast to single player games when it comes to reviews. Even if someone likes the base expansion, the subsequent patches could very well leave much to be desired. I've also noticed that there's usually a flood of 'best expansion ever' reviews right at launch and then very little after that period. That goes for both positive and negative reviews.

The other elephant in the room is that Square Enix actively bribe certain content creators (by their own admission) with free merchandise and invites to exclusive events which is rather blatantly a mutually beneficial arrangement between both parties to allow for financial gain. In other industries, such shady arrangements would be seen as inauthentic and very dubious.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

FFXVI being the latest victim of his game design philosophy. We gave him a chance to finally make a good mainline FF game where he didn't "Reborn" someone else's game and he blew it.

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Unless I have heard incorrectly, Yoshi-P was the producer for FF16; he was not the game's director. A producer's job is about scheduling and keeping production efficient and timely. If you didn't like the game and it wasn't because there were rampant production difficulties, it makes no sense to lay the responsibility for that at the feet of a producer.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Let's keep it down to earth, let's talk that real ish; YoshiP hasn't done anything great since heavensward (maybe stormblood).

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but Shadowbringers is overwhelmingly beloved. And Yoshi-P was the director for of that expansion.

The premise of trying to use metacritic to assess MMO expansions is fundamentally flawed, no matter which side of the fence you're on. MMO's are by nature a live-service style game, and expansions have a 2+ year content lifecycle that make it incredibly difficult to really rate them until they've run their course.

Expansions in 14 are particularly difficult to assess rapidly because SE basically never rolls out the new endgame systems/features of the expansion until LONG after the launch. Reviewers never even have a chance to interact with the failed systems, cut content and general patch content issues that end up being at the core of many peoples criticisms about certain expansions.

Where Stormblood was an expansion redeemed by its patches, Endwalker was an expansion undermined by them.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The premise of trying to use metacritic to assess MMO expansions is fundamentally flawed, no matter which side of the fence you're on. MMO's are by nature a live-service style game, and expansions have a 2+ year content lifecycle that make it incredibly difficult to really rate them until they've run their course.

Expansions in 14 are particularly difficult to assess rapidly because SE basically never rolls out the new endgame systems/features of the expansion until LONG after the launch. Reviewers never even have a chance to interact with the failed systems, cut content and general patch content issues that end up being at the core of many peoples criticisms about certain expansions.

Where Stormblood was an expansion redeemed by its patches, Endwalker was an expansion undermined by them.

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I agree you can't really use metacritic scores as way to say an expansion is successful when its only scoring the initial release and none of the post expansion content that comes in an expansions patches. Metacritic scores don't determine if a expansion is successful or not but its ability to maintain player interest throughout the expansion during the post expansion cycle.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The premise of trying to use metacritic to assess MMO expansions is fundamentally flawed, no matter which side of the fence you're on. MMO's are by nature a live-service style game, and expansions have a 2+ year content lifecycle that make it incredibly difficult to really rate them until they've run their course.

Expansions in 14 are particularly difficult to assess rapidly because SE basically never rolls out the new endgame systems/features of the expansion until LONG after the launch. Reviewers never even have a chance to interact with the failed systems, cut content and general patch content issues that end up being at the core of many peoples criticisms about certain expansions.

Where Stormblood was an expansion redeemed by its patches, Endwalker was an expansion undermined by them.

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You're partly correct, but not fully.

"A game producer is responsible for managing all aspects of a game's design, development, and release.1 Their responsibilities include working with creative and quality assurance teams, designing the story arc, public relations, meeting with financiers to get the project funded, working with marketers to advertise the video game, and working with a legal team to get the game licensed" source: https://www.ziprecruiter.com/career/Video-Game-Producer/What-Is-How-to-Become

Producers have as much, if not, more say than the director. When the director is creating a bad story, plots, and bad game design overall the producer can ovewrite him and present him with a better or completely different direction for the game narrative, story, and game design. FFXVI IS yoship's game. As ziprecruiter states, the game's story arc is his design.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As an aside, MMO's are a very different beast to single player games when it comes to reviews. Even if someone likes the base expansion, the subsequent patches could very well leave much to be desired. I've also noticed that there's usually a flood of 'best expansion ever' reviews right at launch and then very little after that period. That goes for both positive and negative reviews.

The other elephant in the room is that Square Enix actively bribe certain content creators (by their own admission) with free merchandise and invites to exclusive events which is rather blatantly a mutually beneficial arrangement between both parties to allow for financial gain. In other industries, such shady arrangements would be seen as inauthentic and very dubious.

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This is true, every expansion release has been "the best expansion ever" sans endwalker. I still remember the incredible praise stormblood got, called better than heavensward, etc. Moreover, as you stated a lot of these game sites are mostly required to give high score to the bigger game makers now; unless the game is a buggy mess that can't be justified like cyberpunk's initial release. Same goes for these "influencers."

shadowbringer's initial release might've been great, but outside of 6.3 and bozja we got less dungeons, less hairstyles (chronically less, a trend that continues in endwalker), and the complete gutting of job classes and their mechanics. So yeah, as much as we want to kiss the toes of shadowbringers, it was average at best, when we go down the list past the msq and past asmongold's drooling/wow's refugee crisis.

Give me a weekend and a fridge full of malt liquor and I guarantee I can write a better, more coherent story than at least half the storytelling in this game.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Excuses. PS5 obviously doesn't have PS4 or combined PS4-PC-Xbox numbers, but neither did PS1, 2 or 3 when their first final fantasy games came out and still sold as well or better than the company expected.

Final Fantasy VII, VIII, X, XII and even the oh-so-hated XIII sold systems. Final Fantasy XVI failing to do that is still attesting to how the brand fell from grace.

And before you go "but muh economy crisis/muh lower buying power", even PS5's current price in the current economy doesn't hold a candle to how overpriced PS3 was.

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No doubt those were system sellers, although XIII benefitted from releasing after the significantly more affordable slim PS3. Could only imagine how differently things would have gone if XIII released in that bizarre 2006-2008 period.

One thing that might be worth mentioning that has been going on with Japanese Devs in recent years is the debate over the term JRPG. Some like the term because they feel it acknowledges the differences in RPG presentation that resulted from Japanese culture, while others dislike it due to viewing it as offensive and racist. Trying to find it atm but I'm pretty sure there was an interview where Yoshi-P identified himself as the latter and gave indication that one of his goals was to avoid the term.

Idk YoshiP release games with no retouch à la nomura style.Look at FF15 and KH series. But def he's quite safety first guy when he makes games. I do love is perfectionist side of how making games, even tho his game turn out to be too much accessible freak in "gameplay". But none the less, he's a better AAA dev than other AAA devs. Like or not he's good but he's flawess human like everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Huh, my understanding was by all accounts FFXVI was being considered an overwhellming success, and that any concerns about sales targets was simply because of PS5 availability issues still lingering and nothing to do with the quality of the game itself.

Also, Yoshi is not the new Nomura, he scrapped belts. ;)

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SE has actually made a statement based on the fact they are very happy with the sales of XVI as a result of all the negative garbage spread to try to prove the opposite. That is all you will find on these forums. They are not here to provide constructive criticism. They are here to complain incessantly about nothing. I am glad they gave them a place to shout into the void. Keep all of them here in one place. Easy to avoid when I feel like it or come troll/bash if I want as well.

The thing is, 16 is literally a carbon copy of 14's RR story just told in a different way.

Rather than Ultima absorbing all the eikons, we do.

Ultima then somehow uses all the eikons at the end of the fight because reasons.

Power of friendship overcomes the big bad whom only moments before literally one shots Ifrit, Bahamut and Phoenix combined.

Ultima is killed by a sword blasting a hole through his chest (Emet Selch death)

Add in all the mind-numbing side-quests other than the last five.

And the hand-holding with the rings (lel). Also the "hardest" difficulty is a cakewalk. Copying from the MSQ instanced trials now being baby mode.

There's entire plot points that are just left to the player's interpretation.

There's a reason why the sales are so low.