If you're unhappy with this game then unsub... forever.

Don't you need a sub to post here?
Man a lot of people seem to hate the game but they sure like paying for it

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Originally Posted by ValkyrieL

Don't you need a sub to post here?
Man a lot of people seem to hate the game but they sure like paying for it

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Please check the bottom of the OP. Thank you!

There are those that have gotten more than enough out of this game and are just bitter that the game doesn't have time wasters and FOMO like WoW does to keep them only playing FF14. Yet they cannot leave despite being unsatisfied with the direction. FF14 isn't going to become WoW, despite their deepest wishes.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Two out of three dungeons that you've cited are from Stormblood or Heavensward. Old dungeons back from when they still cared.

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Those are just some of the dungeons I think about. They kept making dungeons better up through Stormblood's patches but after that, it seemed like they had peaked but they are still just as good as that peak today, visually.

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So we have to bring our complaints to youtubers instead of talking to the developers themselves like we used to do? That would indicate that they no longer consider direct communication with the player valid. We now have to use youtubers as a medium. Also, youtubers are humans and therefore biased. There is no guarantee that their opinions will represent the player's.

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They are Japanese so there are some translation difficulties I suppose. And this forum is full of garbage that is probaby hard for them to sift through and find decent feedback. The videos MrHappy has been doing have been doing a good job articulating it and we know Yoshi-P watches him, possibly with youtube's caption translate feature.

Content creators can be bias but they are also in a position where they should be trying not to be and to take a middleground view, because of how many people look up to them and their focus on this and articulating information for their viewers is conducive to sifting through and presenting the information in a form developers can use.

I would argue that content creators are usually only popular because people agree with them and support them, so that is a good reason for developers to listen to them as well.

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I don't mind the MSQ being good, but they've been increasingly trying to turn this game into a single player game when their loyal customers paid to play an MMORPG.

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True. They have been open that they are trying to make it playable alone even. But they still make raids and content that can be done with others.

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There comes a point when even things that were once fun lose their luster.

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Maybe, but this wasn't an issue for me for years of playing the game so I don't think the formula is a problem as long as there is variety within the content produced. For example, playing football in P9S or being tossed to another platform in P10S is interesting.

They could have completely copy+pasted all the mechanics from the previous tier and just changed the look of the bosses, and some games would probably actually do that if it was all about making money for minimal effort, but they actually put in the effort to make the mechanics different.

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What is the purpose of having a healer at all if a tank can just solo a boss in an Expert roulette? If Ultimates can be cleared without healers?

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SE wanted to create a game where you can play poorly or you can play well, but you'll be able to notice the ones that play well. Despite everything being simplified, you can still notice this... such as the difference between a healer that dies and a healer that doesn't, and the difference between a tank that can pickup the slack and solo and a tank that can't.

Being an FF game it also makes sense for some players to be able to pickup the slack for another, because in a team environment, sometimes there is a weak link for one reason or another (be it injury, skill, tiredness, lag), and it's nice to think you are not helpless in that situation and can find a way to pickup the slack.

But to answer your question, the purpose of having a healer could be, say, to do big pulls. I know tanks can often handle that without one now, but when we had less self-heals we would certainly just stick to one pack without a healer, so the benefit of a healer was efficiency and not having the slow deaths of DPS in a boss fight due to lack of heals where the tank finishes it off.

Even now, if a tank solos a boss it's still inefficient if they can't keep DPS alive because of the lack of outgoing damage.

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Those are single-player games. We pay a subscription

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True, we pay a subscription despite the game DLC being designed like a single player game. But often you have to pay for DLC, so the payment for the DLC can be thought of as the subscription fee and you only have to pay that for the month in which you play it. The expansion can be thought of as the game.

The people who pay the subscription fee endlessly all year round are probably a smaller amount of players and if they are paying it all year round, they are probably getting more out of it due to playing more than a few days and progressing through raids, pvp, RP, housing or collecting things.

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We used to have easy classes but also some which had complexity to them. It seems that is being gutted to implement simplicity across the board.

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Indeed. Yoshi-P used to talk openly about classes needing to be unique and how he wanted there to be complex jobs and simple jobs. He was even asked which ones he would recommend for new players and listed them. Suddenly, he stopped talking about these subjects when Shadowbringers came out and the direction had clearly changed.

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Originally Posted by Koros

The game flourished because WoW had a crisis and HEAVENSWARD and STORMBLOOD gave players enough of a good impression to share the success of this game.

It did NOT flourish because jobs were dumbed down in ShB/EW. Because literally how would a new player know about jobs being dumbed down?

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It wasn't job design that brought the WoW refugees over. It was the opportunity to play a MMORPG that wasn't WoW. It was thumbing their nose at Blizzard by playing a "weeb" game. It was the raids. It was experiencing a game where the story wasn't an afterthought.

It's a pretty substantial portion of the WoW refugees that are still playing the game considering Lucky Bancho numbers now versus pre-exodus. Despite the complaints about job design from long time players, I don't think newer players are terribly unhappy with the job design.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

^my favourite pastime is watching ShB and EW babies recommend improvements to the game that are literally just old SB systems they ripped out in favour of increasing how casual the game is

Bonus points if that person also argues the game is designed to be casual friendly

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Which systems are you referring to? Not trying to say you're wrong. I don't read the role forums to have seen the suggestions.

The game being designed to be casual friendly is a good thing. MMORPGs can't survive if they're not (see Wildstar). If you want a hardcore experience, you're better off in something like Elden Ring.

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Originally Posted by ValkyrieL

Don't you need a sub to post here?
Man a lot of people seem to hate the game but they sure like paying for it

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You can cancel a subscription but you still have normal access until the currently paid game time runs out. Refunds of unused game time don't get issued.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They are Japanese so there are some translation difficulties I suppose. And this forum is full of garbage that is probaby hard for them to sift through and find decent feedback. The videos MrHappy has been doing have been doing a good job articulating it and we know Yoshi-P watches him, possibly with youtube's caption translate feature.

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Many Japanese individuals understand spoken English fairly well but have difficulty trying to speak it in return. If you watch Q&As, interviews, etc. done in English, YoshiP is already reacting to what is being said in English before it's translated. The translation gives him time to prepare a response while allowing Japanese viewers with limited or no English to hear what's being asked.

I know that MrHappy is not popular with many players so that may not carry weight with them. Another EN content creator that the devs watch regularly is Frosty with Mogtalk (this has been true for years, before Frosty was invited to do PvP tournament commentary). Frosty usually guides the conversation for his guests as opposed to adding his own opinions so the devs can see the legitimate reactions of part of the EN player base.

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Originally Posted by Koros

The game flourished because WoW had a crisis and HEAVENSWARD and STORMBLOOD gave players enough of a good impression to share the success of this game.

It did NOT flourish because jobs were dumbed down in ShB/EW. Because literally how would a new player know about jobs being dumbed down?

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Yet Summoner, Dancer, Warrior, and such are some of the most played Jobs.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

That's a wall of text that wasn't needed to just say "If you don't like how things go just unsub" but ok.

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Seems like you don't know about elaborate opinions...

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It wasn't job design that brought the WoW refugees over. It was the opportunity to play a MMORPG that wasn't WoW. It was thumbing their nose at Blizzard by playing a "weeb" game. It was the raids. It was experiencing a game where the story wasn't an afterthought.

It's a pretty substantial portion of the WoW refugees that are still playing the game considering Lucky Bancho numbers now versus pre-exodus. Despite the complaints about job design from long time players, I don't think newer players are terribly unhappy with the job design.

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So why do the jobs have to be gutted beyond their SB designs? If newer players are neutral and veterans are unhappy then the net result is unhappy.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Yet Summoner, Dancer, Warrior, and such are some of the most played Jobs.

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Because they're powerful? DRK is also the most played tank in JP, along with SAM being the most played DPS. DNC is probably the hardest phys ranged right now, and MCH languishes last while being the easiest phys ranged. Very nice cherrypicking though.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Yet Summoner, Dancer, Warrior, and such are some of the most played Jobs.

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It is true that statistically people gravitate to the simple jobs and SE almost certainly will notice this. If they notice this, it's only a matter of time before the question is raised "should we make all jobs simple?" and here we are.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It is true that statistically people gravitate to the simple jobs and SE almost certainly will notice this. If they notice this, it's only a matter of time before the question is raised "should we make all jobs simple?" and here we are.

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No, people gravitate to meta jobs. WAR, DNC, and SMN are all meta for casual prog because of WAR's Holmgang for PF invuln strats, SMN for raise and the high mobility, and DNC+SAM is one of the easiest way to boost your rDPS. DRK is actually the most played tank in JP, along with SAM being the most played DPS. A lot of people don't actually like playing DRK though. These statistics don't show anything other than what's meta.

Nerf WAR's self-sustain and you'll see WAR becoming far less popular.

Also, a lot of people gravitate to jobs because of the visuals. How do you disentangle the % of players picking up a job because of the visuals vs. them picking it up because of the simplicity? A lot of players play DNC, WHM, and SMN purely because of the class fantasy, not because of the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Koros

Also, a lot of people gravitate to jobs because of the visuals. How do you disentangle the % of players picking up a job because of the visuals vs. them picking it up because of the simplicity? A lot of players play DNC, WHM, and SMN purely because of the class fantasy, not because of the mechanics.

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True. DNC is one of those jobs that someone is going to play just because they dance.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

True. DNC is one of those jobs that someone is going to play just because they dance.

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I just like the job myself, after whm its what I am most on. I couldnt give a rats behind if its meta or not, I just like it

The devs are treating the playerbase like a pimp treats a hoe.

People gravitate towards simple jobs because square makes them stupidly overpowered relative to their complexity

Why play yugioh on Astro and get RSI when WHM does 99.9% of the same job and you can macro it’s entire rotation onto 3 buttons

Same as SMN, BLM is the only complex job left in the game and RDM is in the toilet, what incentive have they provided you to not play SMN

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It will be interesting to see how SAM is designed for Dawntrail. I suspect Kaiten will be back along with some additional button bloat since the impression left is that SAM players like a lot of unnecessary buttons to press.

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Not really.
- Right now you use every skill when it's ready (if not paired with a DRG) <-- need some adjustment
- SAM needs situational abilities
- SAM needs the merging of some single/multi target version abilities.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

People gravitate towards simple jobs because square makes them stupidly overpowered relative to their complexity

Why play yugioh on Astro and get RSI when WHM does 99.9% of the same job and you can macro it’s entire rotation onto 3 buttons

Same as SMN, BLM is the only complex job left in the game and RDM is in the toilet, what incentive have they provided you to not play SMN

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I really don’t find blm hard at all. Bard is harder to play iMO.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I really don’t find blm hard at all. Bard is harder to play iMO.

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Bard is easy too. We all know Fisher is the hardest job in the game. Having to go around looking for fishing spots. Going underwater to hunt them with spears. Fighting off random bears and retainers trying to mug you for your catch... >.>

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Originally Posted by Koros

So why do the jobs have to be gutted beyond their SB designs? If newer players are neutral and veterans are unhappy then the net result is unhappy.

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I wasn't trying to pass judgement on the state of job design overall or state that they need to be gutted. I agree some improvement would be good, assuming it doesn't involve button bloat. There's a point where too many different actions is worse than not enough.

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Originally Posted by Koros

No, people gravitate to meta jobs. WAR, DNC, and SMN are all meta for casual prog because of WAR's Holmgang for PF invuln strats, SMN for raise and the high mobility, and DNC+SAM is one of the easiest way to boost your rDPS. DRK is actually the most played tank in JP, along with SAM being the most played DPS. A lot of people don't actually like playing DRK though. These statistics don't show anything other than what's meta.

Nerf WAR's self-sustain and you'll see WAR becoming far less popular.

Also, a lot of people gravitate to jobs because of the visuals. How do you disentangle the % of players picking up a job because of the visuals vs. them picking it up because of the simplicity? A lot of players play DNC, WHM, and SMN purely because of the class fantasy, not because of the mechanics.

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It's raiders who use PF that gravitate toward meta jobs, not casual players in general. Those who don't raid are free to play whatever they want. Those who have a static are also generally free to use what they want as long as the roles needed get filled.

Those who rely on PF feel constricted by what the raiding community has decided is meta because if their job isn't part of the meta, it's harder to get accepted into a group. That could be solved by starting the PF but a lot of players prefer to avoid anything that smacks of responsibility, such as being a party leader.

It will always be a problem in MMOs until such time as player communities decide metas aren't accomplishing anything, and I doubt that will ever happen.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

Not really.
- Right now you use every skill when it's ready (if not paired with a DRG) <-- need some adjustment
- SAM needs situational abilities
- SAM needs the merging of some single/multi target version abilities.

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Oh, I'm not saying that SAM players really do like button bloat, only that the uproar over Kaiten leaves that impression. It's hard to say how the developers will interpret it.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Bard is easy too. We all know Fisher is the hardest job in the game. Having to go around looking for fishing spots. Going underwater to hunt them with spears. Fighting off random bears and retainers trying to mug you for your catch... >.>

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Your roof nails are more in danger from my retainers than your fish.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I really don’t find blm hard at all. Bard is harder to play iMO.

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I mean, all jobs are easy in pre-Extreme content.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Is that why there are several threads of pure negativity about how bad this game is every single day on the forums?

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Because if people take their time to criticise a game they are actively playing, they are doing it because THEY CARE. They like some aspects of it, but think that others could use improvement. Wanting something you enjoy to be the best it possibly can be isn't that outlandish of a concept, surely?

The people who just hate everything aren't taking the time to post their criticism. They just leave.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

People gravitate towards simple jobs because square makes them stupidly overpowered relative to their complexity

Why play yugioh on Astro and get RSI when WHM does 99.9% of the same job and you can macro it’s entire rotation onto 3 buttons

Same as SMN, BLM is the only complex job left in the game and RDM is in the toilet, what incentive have they provided you to not play SMN

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To me AST was easier to play then WHM <.<
So it kinda depends on the player too..

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Because if people take their time to criticise a game they are actively playing, they are doing it because THEY CARE. They like some aspects of it, but think that others could use improvement. Wanting something you enjoy to be the best it possibly can be isn't that outlandish of a concept, surely?

The people who just hate everything aren't taking the time to post their criticism. They just leave.

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My point is that even if you do criticize the game out of care, the devs don't see a reason to change because you keep paying them. At some point, the only way to enact change is to hit them where it counts. Their profit margin. How long have healers had to suffer? Where is the communication? While this once may have been a passion project, they now see they can continue making money by doing the bare minimum for this game while diverting the profits it gives them to other projects, such as FF16. They know they are massively successful to the point they don't have to give it their all and they can still reap profits. It makes more sense from a business standpoint to divert their resources to other projects to add to their profits while running very little risk of losing money on FF14 because while people complain, they still stay.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

To me AST was easier to play then WHM <.<
So it kinda depends on the player too..

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Ah wow, thats a New One.
Neither are really that hard, but I never heard of anyone having a harder time with Whm then Ast

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Originally Posted by TheNight

No, there's one thing that speaks louder than any individual wallet, and that's multiple wallets.

What you should be doing is to use your voice to dissaude those multiple wallets. Let the world know this game is atrocious. Spread the message. We need this game's reputation to nosedive off a cliff.

Make sure to pressure content creators and reviewers and let them know how you feel.

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HAHAHAHAHA good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Because if people take their time to criticise a game they are actively playing, they are doing it because THEY CARE. They like some aspects of it, but think that others could use improvement. Wanting something you enjoy to be the best it possibly can be isn't that outlandish of a concept, surely?

The people who just hate everything aren't taking the time to post their criticism. They just leave.

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SOME people yes.

But no, there are some posters here who legitimately hate the game and/or are trolls about it. They're also the most prolific starters of threads about how they dislike the game. It's false that people who hate everything just leave. Some people have to feel validation from others, so they try to get others to hate the game as much as they do.

The way to spot the difference:

People who care criticize the game but not other players.
People who hate harp on the game but also attack anyone who defends it even partially as not being terrible.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

There's a point where too many different actions is worse than not enough.

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Very much agreed. I posted a thread in the healer forum, but the tl;dr of it is that about 2/5ths of the Jobs have 27, 30, 31, or 32 buttons. The other 3/5ths (more than half) have 33, 34, 35, 36, or 37 (PLD). Some absolutely justify that as the buttons all are useful and interesting enough to justify a hotbar slot...but a lot have fat to trim where they really don't. And it's not always the ones you think. MNK has the fewest buttons of any Melee Job at 31, but pretty much all of them are relevant and its one of the more complex Jobs in the game to optimize, despite that. RPR has 2 more at 33 but is easier. So number of buttons doesn't really guarantee simple or harder gameplay and more speaks to hotbar efficiency (buttons that change on context, like Paradox sharing the Blizzard 1/Fire 1 button) and Jobs that have a lot of random stuff. Some with lots of buttons absolutely justify them, but others less so. Either way, though, 30 is a lot of buttons, and SMN is the only Job in the game that doesn't have that or more (SMN at 27 and MCH at 30 are the only two in the game that have 30 or less)

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's raiders who use PF that gravitate toward meta jobs, not casual players in general.

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Also this.

Casuals play whatever they feel like. Many aren't even aware the forbidden site, the Balance, or other meta stuff even exists, and aren't chasing it. They're playing what feels fun to them and what they think they do well on or simply enjoy. Midcore sometimes feel like they have to chase the meta, but they'll make substitutions based on their own perception of skill. One reason SGE is so popular (aside from the visuals) is that it's a slightly weaker SCH that has so much less jank, players feel they can be more competent playing it. RDM is also wildly popular with both casuals and the midcore since non-hardcore players tend to value Raises and healing spells very highly, far more than the raid community that belittles such utility and often asks for it to be removed so "SMN and RDM can be properly balanced against BLM". The rest of the playerbase likes those spells being there and it's one reason they enjoy the Jobs. (Never mind it's yet another case of the hardcores asking for homogenization they'll later then complain about all the Jobs being too similar if it happens...)

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The idea that everyone behaves like hardcores do, that casuals (especially) and the midcore act the same as what a hardcore thinks they should, or that all these changes are made for the sake of casuals, is just so weird, yet so persistent. It's as persistent as it is wrong; which is very much so.

You say other people are wrong and then say SGE and RDM are popular when the numbers directly prove that wrong.

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Originally Posted by TheNight

You say other people are wrong and then say SGE and RDM are popular when the numbers directly prove that wrong.

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If we are going by anabeisos then he is half right, SGE is second, far behind WHM with SCH nipping at its heels (AST is so far in fourth it’s actually funny)

For RDM it’s the 4th least popular job beating out BRD, MNK and BLM

In TOP SGE slips to third (again AST so far in last it’s actually funny), RDM remains 4th least popular

For DSR SGE returns to second (AST is in the trash again) and RDM remains 4th least popular


So I would say it more proves your point than his, SGE also has the new healer appeal and still barely clears SCH

No? Don't be so complacent.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Ah wow, thats a New One.
Neither are really that hard, but I never heard of anyone having a harder time with Whm then Ast

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I have a harder time with WHM as well. I don't think it's hard per se, it just feels incredibly clunky. Lillies feel like they should be OGCD heals, but they're not. I'm used to AST flowing smoothly and WHM just doesn't. That or I'm doing something horribly wrong.

When people say “I find WHM harder” are you discussing the healing side in dungeons or aiming to Gold parse P12S because that’s two totally different things

I agree WHM healing feels clunky, but it is also infinitely easier to play WHM from a damage perspective to a high orange level than it is dealing with AST playing yugioh in the burst window

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Originally Posted by Koros

No, people gravitate to meta jobs. WAR, DNC, and SMN are all meta for casual prog because of WAR's Holmgang for PF invuln strats, SMN for raise and the high mobility, and DNC+SAM is one of the easiest way to boost your rDPS. DRK is actually the most played tank in JP, along with SAM being the most played DPS. A lot of people don't actually like playing DRK though. These statistics don't show anything other than what's meta.

Nerf WAR's self-sustain and you'll see WAR becoming far less popular.

Also, a lot of people gravitate to jobs because of the visuals. How do you disentangle the % of players picking up a job because of the visuals vs. them picking it up because of the simplicity? A lot of players play DNC, WHM, and SMN purely because of the class fantasy, not because of the mechanics.

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Summoner isn't top of the meta. It's played because it's simple and players want to be able to pick up a role quickly. As a lot of players play multiple jobs rather frequently, so don't want to have to spend a lot of time mastering it if it's not their main role.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Summoner isn't top of the meta. It's played because it's simple and players want to be able to pick up a role quickly. As a lot of players play multiple jobs rather frequently, so don't want to have to spend a lot of time mastering it if it's not their main role.

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what would someone who has cleared zero relevant content know about the meta

Endgame players aren’t most of us…. The vast majority of us aren’t there and most may never be there.

WHM is just the most popular because it is the basic healer job that anyone can pick up from level 1 without any complications or weirdness. You go from a starting character green icon Conjurer to green icon White Mage without having to do any research about it….

Scholar requires 30 levels of Arcanist first, which feels weird for a healer, even though Arcanists get Physik early on.

I can’t even get SGE yet and I in for a few solid weeks of playtime at this point!

Not everyone rushes to “Endgame” most of us are just playing the game…

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Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem

Endgame players aren’t most of us…. The vast majority of us aren’t there and most may never be there.

WHM is just the most popular because it is the basic healer job that anyone can pick up from level 1 without any complications or weirdness. You go from a starting character green icon Conjurer to green icon White Mage without having to do any research about it….

Scholar requires 30 levels of Arcanist first, which feels weird for a healer, even though Arcanists get Physik early on.

I can’t even get SGE yet and I in for a few solid weeks of playtime at this point!

Not everyone rushes to “Endgame” most of us are just playing the game…

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This is why context to these conversations is important. Like you said, only a small percentage of the playerbase really engages with endgame content. Yet most conversations tend to focus only on those that do.

I was actually considering unsubbing for the free-trial, but I have zero desire to get those BLU spells again or sitting through those missions.......

The people that really fall into a game tend to be those who post on the forums, makes sense…

There has been an insular “hardcore” crowd of MMORPG gamers who use a similar playbook. They tend to write off any and all of lower level content as nothing but “the grind” to get to the “real game” of whatever it is that they get up to. Gatekeeping goes hand-in-hand with the grind. I’ve just been playing a bunch of different MMORPGs since Ultima Online (and count the old 90s Neverwinter Nights as at least a proto-MMORPG) and never once made it to “endgame” in one of them. It seems like that same group has been present in all of them…. and I’m not a fan.

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Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem

The people that really fall into a game tend to be those who post on the forums, makes sense…

There has been an insular “hardcore” crowd of MMORPG gamers who use a similar playbook. They tend to write off any and all of lower level content as nothing but “the grind” to get to the “real game” of whatever it is that they get up to. Gatekeeping goes hand-in-hand with the grind. I’ve just been playing a bunch of different MMORPGs since Ultima Online (and count the old 90s Neverwinter Nights as at least a proto-MMORPG) and never once made it to “endgame” in one of them. It seems like that same group has been present in all of them…. and I’m not a fan.

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Literally anybody can do any content in FFXIV in crafted gear, what gatekeeping is there exactly ?

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Ah wow, thats a New One.
Neither are really that hard, but I never heard of anyone having a harder time with Whm then Ast

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The issue i had with WHM was keeping eye on my MP and playing optimal with the lillies ( during dpsing).
With AST you never have to look at your MP bar.. you literally have infinite MP.

There isn’t as much of that in FF14 and the devs have done quite a bit of work to actively thwart that grind-gatekeeper mentality, which is a big part of why I’m still playing this game instead of others.

Ah my people, my peers. People expecting higher standards is refreshing after seeing Reddit gushing praise.

"XVI eikon battles are some of the best boss fights in gaming history."
We didn't do anything! The Phoenix stuff is a scripted light show. The Titan spectacle did bring a smile to my face on first sight but remember it's just a very basic on-rails battle. It's not ground-breaking game design.

In a videogame I'm always going to judge gameplay with much more weight than story and visual effects. In what ways does it move the art of game design forwards? Actually in some ways they regressed the genre. Cinematic clash!