The issue with new jobs is they just reimplement scrapped content when they could just append that scrapped content back on the job it was scrapped from. If it's not scrapped content, it's a duplicated skill from another class or job. I'd rather fix what we have then going forward with a new job.
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05-01-2023, 09:58 PMKatish
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05-01-2023, 09:59 PMForteNightshadeThere's a reason for this though. Melee are far and away the most popular jobs. Not to mention, the dev team has all but forcefully shoehorned double Melee as the standard comp. They nerfed Casters outright just to reinforce that standard. Sure, you can still bring a second Range or Caster but its at a pretty sizeable DPS loss. Black Mage may be the exception but only if played at a very optimal level. There isn't a chance in hell they go what would be six years without release another Melee. It also doesn't make sense with their aforementioned comp standard to equalize the representation as you'll now have five Range or Casters competing for a single spot compared to five Melee competing for two. So long as there exists a "Range Tax," expect to see another Melee if not in 7.0 then 8.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
As for Tanks and Healers, I sincerely believe they're done adding any new ones. They pretty much admitted to having no idea what to even make for a fourth healer; ultimately borrowing heavily from Scholar. There just isn't a niche to be filled here, especially given how rigidly designed both roles have become. They won't go down having a split Regen/Shield after decoupling Astro from that archetype considering they couldn't balance it to save their lives. And they've openly said to always expect at least one DPS per expansion due to their overwhelming popularity. That statement adds credence to the belief we've seen the last new tank and healer as I suspect they'll shift to only one job per expansion soon enough.
Of course, this is all speculation on my part. -
05-01-2023, 10:23 PMUkcsAliasMy votes for a caster would be: geomancer, necromancer, and chronomancerQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I rather see green mage as a healer. For a caster themed around nature geomancer already sounds a lot more 'aggressive' and by that suits better even if they effectively are the same. And maybe they could both still originate from the same starting class and by that just be made quite similar (for example biologist splitting to geomancer and green mage? ofcourse with entirely diffirent ability sets, but this way at least some aspects can be kept the same as a reference to actualy just being the same but for a diffirent purpose). -
05-01-2023, 11:09 PMRemish
I doubt Green Mage would happen even though I think it could easily fit within this game. I say this because Green Mage has sort of been shoehorned into the game already through other jobs. Most of the skills that classify as Green Magic or Arcane Magic for that matter were skills that have already been removed from the game or already exist on another job. The real problem with Green Mage is that it's never really had a true identity in the series. We all know what it is supposed to be but it has inconsistencies in each game it shows up in. It also just seems to be a job that get's all buffs and debuffs within the game under a single roof... but it has no real offensive properties of it's own. It's true to it's job as a support role. I think Green Mage probably fits best as a Healer or else it'd be competing with RDM as a support caster. The other problem with Green Mage is that it would be getting spells that were already stripped away from both WHM and SCH, especially if it were a healer. So we wouldn't be getting a real new job. Then again they are all copy and pasted anyway so it wouldn't really matter. Regardless, Green Mage's spell pool is so minimistically small that it would basically be a brand new job in FFXIV since they'd have to create an abundance of brand new spells that it otherwise never had. Green Mage is a jack of all trades, but as a supporter. Which in this game, would be super busted.
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05-02-2023, 01:39 AMRyuDragnierThey could also use Geomancer as a Scouting class if they wanted. In FFT they were actually pretty powerful physical attackers in addition to their Geomancy magic. Something like that would work well as a second scouting job so they should desire. Either way, I want those bells used.Quote:
Originally Posted by UkcsAlias
If used for Scouting, I want the bell attached to a bo staff or something like that. Beat the crap out of the enemy and then ring thy bell for magic.
If just pure caster, RING YOUR BELL. -
05-02-2023, 10:46 AMShurrikhanA slightly more informed (especially in regard to early XIV) and detailed version:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
1.0 - Initial Vision (Pre-Yoshida)- 2 Plate (1 Turtle, 1 Skirmisher), 1 Mail, 2 Leather, 2 Cloth (Casters with some healing tools), 1 Mail, and 2 Leather (1 ranged, 1 melee, operating in a sort of triangle of functionality alongside the Mail class).
Only Gladiator was a fairly discrete tank, since so much of its throughput required being attacked, and there were no discrete Healers nor magical ranged DPS.
There were no "Healers" as recognized now; rather, Casters had healing tools atop an otherwise more variably purposable kit. CNJ was a 6-element elementalist who simply had some healing atop that, while THM was an Oracle who used Blood, Poison, Astral, and Umbral Magic and was as much a debuffer/nuker as healer / HP-transferrer.
The Physical Melee were referred to not as Melee DPS so much as "Fighters". Lancer, Pugilist, and Archer acted in a sort of triangle of capacities. Lancer acted as a strike-leader capable of granting TP (allowing allies to more rapidly ramp up to finishers) or Leech (healing on physical hit) to allies and longer-term sabotage via draining enemy TP (which slowed the frequency of their special attacks) and longer duration snares, and had passive eHP near to that of a tank; Pugilist had technically greater sustain via stance and CDs, though at opportunity cost to damage, and had greater immediate sabotage capacities via stuns, silencing, and pacification, and also had one of only two taunts in the game for quickly weaving in as a snap-tank; Archer had the largest range of kiting tools --snares, binds, a near-taunt, and a enmity purge tied into their invuln via Decoy-- and debuff purges, and because Mind and Piety both gave it decent overall value even for damage output, it tended to take on a spot-support role via discrete tools, rather than via embedded tools like Lancer or by changing stance like Pugilist.
Gladiator was your trick/counter tank and Maurauder your zug-zug tank. Every class could use the actions of others, though synergy obviously varied. Marauder, getting little benefit from Mind or Piety and having zero magic of its own, usually carried the least support, with Thaumaturge typically having the most healing throughput in practice and every class having its own variety of supportive tools.
1.8 - Yoshida's Simplifications- 2 Tanks, 1 Healer (down from ~2), 2 Ranged DPS (down from ~3, 1 Magical with no support, 1 Physical with significant support), 2 Melee DPS (1 purely Physical, 1 with some Magical damage).
~80% of support tools/functionality removed; tanks buffed; 'cross-role' agency gutted; hybrids cut in two.
2.0 - A Realm Reborn- 2 Tanks (Fending), 2 Healers (Healing), 3 Ranged DPS (2 Casting, 1 Aiming), 2 Melee DPS (1 Maiming, 1 Striking).
Armor Classes (wherein all jobs used all stats to varying effect and for varying capacities to allow for further customization) replaced with Class-locked Gear Types (in which Strength, Dexterity, Mind, and Intelligence were all just redundant names for Power and classes were each locked to their own set).
Casting receives an extra job per an experiment in split-jobbing (ACN -> SCH + SMN) as a consequence of bringing the number of classe/jobs capable of healing back to where pre-Yoshida. Otherwise, all DPS have 1 job per Gear Type.
2.4 - Ninja's Release- 2 Tanks (Fending), 2 Healers (Healing), 3 Ranged DPS (2 Casting, 1 Aiming), 3 Melee DPS (1 Maiming, 1 Striking, 1 Scouting).
Having otherwise 1 DPS job per Gear Type outside of the lone job pair they were already explicitly regretting (SCH/SMN), the devs decide to continue that route by adding a further gear type (Scouting).
3.0 - Heavensward- 3 Tanks (Fending), 3 Healers (Healing), 4 Ranged DPS (2 Casting, 2 Aiming), 3 Melee DPS (1 Maiming, 1 Striking, 1 Scouting).
Except, of course... because of that earlier split-job, they already have a Gear Type with two jobs (Casting), but with its mirror only having 1 job. So they add another Aiming job.
Though now you have an oddity: Now there are fewer Melee than Ranged dps... and now Melee's gear types are the only ones with a single job each.
4.0 - Stormblood- 3 Tanks (Fending), 3 Healers (Healing), 5 Ranged DPS (3 Casting, 2 Aiming), 4 Melee DPS (1 Maiming, 2 Striking, 1 Scouting).
They address the above concern from HW (that Melee have fewer options than their mirror and are the sole role to have only a single job per gear type), but still prioritize attractive jobs above all, thereby re-introducing that imbalance in adding RDM.
But! But! Now there are more Magical Ranged than Physical Ranged! The sub-roles are imbalanced! ...Not to mention the actual roles (5 Ranged to 4 Melee).
5.0 - Shadowbringers- 4 Tanks (Fending), 3 Healers (Healing), 6 Ranged DPS (3 Casting, 3 Aiming), 4 Melee DPS (1 Maiming, 2 Striking, 1 Scouting).
One alleged issue addressed (+DNC), and another job added for maximum cool factor (+GNB).
But, but! Now there are more tanks than healers! ...And, yes, 50% more ranged DPS than melee DPS.
6.0 - Endwalker- 4 Tanks (Fending), 4 Healers (Healing), 6 Ranged DPS (3 Casting, 3 Aiming), 5 Melee DPS (2 Maiming, 2 Striking, 1 Scouting).
And with that, all was finally balanced save for there being 1 fewer Melee than Ranged and 1 fewer Scouting than Maiming or Striking.
6 Ranged, 5 Melee. 2 Maiming, 2 Striking, 1 Scouting.
If we're likely to just keep adding an adding jobs, then this doesn't likely matter and they should honestly just follow player demand, whatever best helps flesh out the expansion's cultural exploration and the 'rule of cool'...
...but otherwise... there's only 1 gear type to add to that would actually balance things out: Scouting. - 2 Plate (1 Turtle, 1 Skirmisher), 1 Mail, 2 Leather, 2 Cloth (Casters with some healing tools), 1 Mail, and 2 Leather (1 ranged, 1 melee, operating in a sort of triangle of functionality alongside the Mail class).
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05-02-2023, 10:50 AMhagare
oh I'm sure the whiners will find something to complain about
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05-02-2023, 04:47 PMundull1
By not having 2 jobs.
If we start going down the route of cutting core features out of fear for the Devs competence then where does it end? May as well cancel MSQ entirely so incompetent indie company SE doesn't ruin it..... -
05-02-2023, 07:04 PMRenathrasSource?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Best data I can find are the Lucky Bancho numbers, which don't really suggest that. Moreover, part of that could be just because there are MORE Melee Jobs, so people spread across them more. If there were 5 Caster Jobs, there might be more people playing those, too. Melee already have enough.
While it is true they seem to have no idea what to do with Healers, they haven't had that issue with Tanks. GNB is pretty distinct and filled a different niche and aesthetic. And if you're going to say all the Tanks are the same, that's like saying WAR and NIN are the same because they have a 1-2-3 with a -4 upkeep, a gauge they build up and spend avoiding overcap, and a burst every 1 min. By that token, every DPS in the game is already the same and there's no niche left for THEM, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
I'd like to see the quote for the "they've openly said" a DPS per expansion. Even if that was explicitly true and a correct translation (which is probably not likely), they added Tank/DPS in ShB and Healer/DPS in EW. The last time they added only DPS was two in SB, which was a crapshow. It took them the entire expansion to get SAM balanced right, and RDM they managed to fix just to break again in EW, and the ques were a nightmare for DPS the entire expansion, jus tlike they were in 2.4/2.5 when NIN was added.
Without exception, EVERY time they've added only DPS Jobs to the game, be it in a patch or expansion, it killed roulettes for months.
Is a "chronomancer" a Time Mage?Quote:
Originally Posted by UkcsAlias
Necro will never happen. Yoshi P already said it's too evil and not heroic, so they won't ever add it.
Honestly, I'd rather see Chemist as the next Healer. But I also said that before SGE, so...
While the 1.X history is fine (other than you saying 2 ranged then saying 1 phys ranged...), the latter is off:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It's not "melee vs ranged", it's "melee vs ranged vs caster" and has been since AT LATEST ShB, but honestly as far back as ARR. In HW, you still needed each subrole of Melee, Ranged, AND Caster for the party bonus damage. In ARR, BRD had the Healer LB while BLM and SMN did not.
The game has never treated Ranged Physical and Caster as the same role. It has treated the roles as Tanks, Healers, and DPSers (ALL TOGETHER), or as Tanks, Healers, Melee, Ranged Physical, and Casters. It has NEVER treated the Jobs as Tanks, Healers, Melee, "all Ranged together" during any portion of the game's history.
Insisting that it does so just seems so odd. I know it's because some people desperately want ANOTHER Melee for god only knows what reason and want any excuse to suggest it will happen, but it's just ridiculous at this point.
Arguably, this.Quote:
Originally Posted by undull1
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05-02-2023, 09:22 PMDuskane
it is funny people think the devs will suddenly change design philosophy on jobs if we don't get new ones
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05-02-2023, 10:34 PMDeceptus
Say that in order to "unlock it" you have to spend 100,000 Tomes of Irrelevancy (heavy /s)
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05-03-2023, 12:40 AMUkcsAliasYes, chrono is a diffirent word for time. And <something>mancer is a commonly used combination for someone that manipulates that certain things (aethermancer would manipulate aether, pyromancer manipulates fire, etc). Its a very simple way to make something as basic as time mage sound a bit more excessive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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05-03-2023, 01:25 AMdspguy
Every job they've introduced has been based on previous FF games/lore. Even if it is a job in name only (Sage like Tellah in FF4) or weapon only (Reaper similar to Dark Knight in FFXI). I can't see them coming up with a job that we haven't already heard of in another game. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a scouting-based job if only for what might be an arbitrarily-defined need to round the gear sets.
Can they mess up the reveal? I don't know? Have they done so before? Maybe my memory is hazy on this topic. Did data miners find reaper and sage early on? -
05-03-2023, 01:53 AMYeol
You know what really would piss people off?
Making battle changes nobody asked for. Touching jobs people are happy with while leaving real problems unsolved. -
05-03-2023, 01:57 AMRyuDragnierYou mean like what they've done with DRK since its release?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeol
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05-03-2023, 03:26 AMRitsukoSonodaNah, Chronomancer is a mage that uses magic to animate and control clocks, watches, and other timekeeping implements making them the master of time... >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by UkcsAlias
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05-03-2023, 10:38 AMhagare
yoshi-p not cosplaying
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05-03-2023, 11:02 AMZanarkand-RonsoOr recently Scholar.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
I dont even like scholar, but I miss the Simultaneous Dual Casting with the Fey. -
05-03-2023, 11:40 AMRyuDragnierThe state of SCH angers me. Yes, it's still powerful and can still do massive team carrying. However it still feels like crap, and definitely needs a rework.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso
If the fairy is just going to be glam now, make Seraph the permanent upgrade for the fairy at level 80. Remove Aetherflow and make the Fairy Gauge the healing resource (so things like Excog, Lustrate, and Indom use a certain amount of the fairy gauge to use). Make Energy Drain do some damage, give 20% of the max MP, and fill half of the fairy gauge while on a 1 minute cooldown. Remove Dissipation and have a reworked Fey Union replacing it, fusing you with the fairy for increasing healing potential, but also a quickly regenerating fairy gauge (think 10 gauge every tick) that doesn't lock you out of any heals other than the fairy's. Have fairy actions (Embrace, Fey Illumination, Fey Blessing, Whispering Dawn, Consolation) all fill the gauge in differing amounts when used along with their normal functions. Make the SCH's kit synergize, not fight itself.