FF14 needs WvW or RvR

Can we stay on topic and not complain about open world pvp? OP did not even ask for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnOhMeYxhRM
^that is WvW

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Ahhh you were a selfish griefer.....I see.

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Murdering all the guards and NPCs in places like Ogrimaar makes me a selfish griefer? I didn't bother with those little outpost areas. Go big or go home if you're going to raid an enemy settlement :P

The Booty Bay thing was more an issue with boredom when things were too slow.

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When was this? Cause when I played back in 2018 AoE would not flag you, and on classic servers you also did not get flagged for AoE'ing someone that was flagged.

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It happened during MoP , was the cause of a gigantic thread on the matter, plus massive GM complaints. There was this toy called the Censer, and pvpers used it to FORCEFLAG people "I want my coins"...again, the selfish pvp mentality, they cant be bothered with what others want, its all about MEEEEEEEEEEE.

War Mode was the response to this idiocy...what was the devs attitude? Dangling carrots like increased xp for PVE players of they turned War Mode on. I dont know if the devs are pigheaded, singleminded or just plain STUPID..but the basic concept that it doesnt matter WHAT you offer, if players dont want to do an activity THEY DONT WANT TO DO IT , so no amount of "incentive" will change their minds.

When a player says they dont like a specific activity, grabbing them by the neck and forcibly shoving their faces in it ISNT going to accomplish a damned thing, other than that person then hating your guts.

Then again, in light of past events, the fact that Blizzard staff couldnt or wouldnt accept the words "no means no" became pretty much self evident.

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Murdering all the guards and NPCs in places like Ogrimaar makes me a selfish griefer?

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When it means you are interfering with others gameplay, yes it does. Thats why the "dog in the manger" parallel applies: you dont need it, you dont want it, but no one else can have it or use it. Did you ever stop to think of OTHER players? The fact that what you were doing was stopping them from finishing their quests??

No?

Didnt think so.

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Can we stay on topic and not complain about open world pvp? OP did not even ask for it.

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We are on topic "I want to pvp at hunts"

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

It happened during MoP , was the cause of a gigantic thread on the matter, plus massive GM complaints. There was this toy called the Censer, and pvpers used it to FORCEFLAG people "I want my coins"...again, the selfish pvp mentality, they cant be bothered with what others want, its all about MEEEEEEEEEEE.

War Mode was the response to this idiocy...what was the devs attitude? Dangling carrots like increased xp for PVE players of they turned War Mode on. I dont know if the devs are pigheaded, singleminded or just plain STUPID..but the basic concept that it doesnt matter WHAT you offer, if players dont want to do an activity THEY DONT WANT TO DO IT , so no amount of "incentive" will change their minds.

When a player says they dont like a specific activity, grabbing them by the neck and forcibly shoving their faces in it ISNT going to accomplish a damned thing, other than that person then hating your guts.

Then again, in light of past events, the fact that Blizzard staff couldnt or wouldnt accept the words "no means no" became pretty much self evident.



When it means you are interfering with others gameplay, yes it does. Thats why the "dog in the manger" parallel applies: you dont need it, you dont want it, but no one else can have it or use it. Did you ever stop to think of OTHER players? The fact that what you were doing was stopping them from finishing their quests??

No?

Didnt think so.



We are on topic "I want to pvp at hunts"

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Or perhaps it's more of an issue of their fellow high level horde players who most definitely were in the area as well but did nothing to stop me? At least the NPCs fought back. I remember camping in one of them for a couple hours waiting on ppl to group up to pick a fight with one of the faction leader NPCs. Hell all those low levels working together probably could have done it too. I mean the Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40K proved diddly can accomplish anything if you use enough of it.

Ultimately whether open world PvP is good or bad in a title boils down to the individual title's player base.

I played a number of F2P MMORPGs that had open world PvP that wasn't a crap show of annoying gankers. I've played others as well where the player base had turned it into a shit festival.

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Or perhaps it's more of an issue of their fellow high level horde players who most definitely were in the area as well but did nothing to stop me?

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So you admit it then. It never, of course, occurred to you that maybe you should just leave questgivers alone..or didnt the fact that you were seriously screwing up others gameplay ever occur to you?

Of course it didnt.

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Hell all those low levels working together probably could have done it too

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Ever stop to consider they didnt give a toss for pvp and maybe it would have been a better idea to leave them alone.???

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A Dog asleep in a manger filled with hay, was awakened by the Cattle, which came in tired and hungry from working in the field. But the Dog would not let them get near the manger, and snarled and snapped as if it were filled with the best of meat and bones, all for himself. The Cattle looked at the Dog in disgust. “How selfish he is!” said one. “He cannot eat the hay and yet he will not let us eat it who are so hungry for it!”

Do not grudge others what you cannot enjoy yourself.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

If you used an AoE attack and a player flagged for PvP walked into it, they'd get hit and you'd get flagged. Griefers love to do it so they can pick a fight whether you wanted it or not, and a number of classes had AoE skills as part of their single target rotations.

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Or they would pull a mob onto you that if you hit it would turn your PvP flag on like a city NPC or vendor. There were ways to get around that restriction.

To the larger topic, I think one of the bigger issues with something like world PvP is that they become the issue of someone whether they want to participate or not. Like someone going and killing all the NPCs at The Crossroads in WoW when newbies are there trying to do their quests. Battlegrounds in WoW was fun. Dueling someone in the world who agreed was fun. Being forced to participate or have your day ruined because you were too low was not.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Murdering all the guards and NPCs in places like Ogrimaar makes me a selfish griefer? I didn't bother with those little outpost areas. Go big or go home if you're going to raid an enemy settlement :P

The Booty Bay thing was more an issue with boredom when things were too slow.

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Griefer? No. You were doing what the game allowed. But it was pretty sucky just having to sit around and wait or just log on my server because Horde at that time was vastly outnumbered by Alliance so our cities were constantly being raided by high levels and we couldn't get anything done.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

So you admit it then. It never, of course, occurred to you that maybe you should just leave questgivers alone..or didnt the fact that you were seriously screwing up others gameplay ever occur to you?

Of course it didnt.

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Which sounds good except as an enemy player, you usually couldn't tell which flagged NPC is a questgiver or just random NPC(guards were of course obvious because they were on the way to attack as soon as you got in range even if you hadn't attacked them, and most of the vendors had a job title).

The real mistake was on Blizzard's side by flagging the quest NPCs in the first place. But then Blizzard always wanted world PvP to be a standard part of the game. They only added the Normal servers (which weren't even true PvE servers) because they knew they'd miss out on a lot of money from those who wanted a RPG but weren't interested in PvP. Their expectation had been that players killing enemy quest givers would bring out players from the other faction to defend the NPCs and attack the enemy players. It seemed to work fairly well in Vanilla. Then the high level players moved to Outland in Burning Crusade and couldn't be bothered to go back to defending the low level cities when they had their world PvP in Hellfire Peninsula, Zangarmarsh and at Halaa.

Regardless, the OP has made it clear that world PvP is not what they're asking for. They're asking for large scale PvP in zones designed specifically for such PvP that wouldn't fear with PvE acitivity.

GW2's WvW are kind of fun, though they also feel like you're just going with the herd half the time xD

I do wonder, though, wouldn't they just be "more elaborate Frontlines?"

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

GW2's WvW are kind of fun, though they also feel like you're just going with the herd half the time xD

I do wonder, though, wouldn't they just be "more elaborate Frontlines?"

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The 2 games I've played that had notable large scale faction vs faction pvp events that come to mind are RF Online and Pandora Saga. Both of these featured 3 factions. RF Online had a Craig War event every 8 RL hours amounting to 3 per day. I think it supported up to 200 players per side. Initial objectives here to defend your base node while trying to break someone else's. Once a faction managed to break another's node someone from the attacking faction then had to run an item do the central area and give it to the halostone keeper. If they succeeded that faction was free to mine in the central area for various resources for a few hours because the keeper would attempt to kill anyone from another faction that entered. (I say try because the game had some bad balance issues with stat scaling at high levels resulting in what can easily be called the most broken tank class in any MMO. When my Accretian Mercenary can tank hundreds of players + supporting NPCs without breaking a sweat it's far beyond OP at that point. I could even tank the halostone keeper while others ran around killing the ppl AFK with their mining rigs up or march right into other factions bases because the base defenses couldn't dent my HP bar. Though I did get some funny reactions from Bellato and Cora players that screenshotted me just chilling in their own base areas lol.)

I Pandora Saga was a bit different with each faction having a main base along with multiple outposts. I don't immediately recall rewards for winning those battles or the schedule and frequency tho. I think there were just various static bonuses depending on end ranks after the events. I think this was limited to 100 per side.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Murdering all the guards and NPCs in places like Ogrimaar makes me a selfish griefer? I didn't bother with those little outpost areas. Go big or go home if you're going to raid an enemy settlement :P

The Booty Bay thing was more an issue with boredom when things were too slow.

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Yeah, it's not griefing. Creating conflict via PvP is a feature of WoW. Can it be annoying being on the receiving end? Absolutely, but the entire point of that being a thing is to incite conflict between players, sometimes even forcing them to group up to deal with a threat.

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The real mistake was on Blizzard's side by flagging the quest NPCs in the first place.

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A stupid mistake that every other MMO corrected over a decade ago. Blizzard claims they "listen". They dont.

They never have.

They never will.

They are STILL stuck in a 2004 mindset . its past time they woke up and smelled what they are shovelling.

2004 audiences and gameplay paradigms vs 2023 MODERN gaming are diametric opposites.

Most, if not all, MODERN MMO's have been cognizant of one specific factor: the BIG money is in PVE. Very few, IF ANY, MMOs these days allow questgivers and vendors to be pvp flagged, as they are well aware that one or two selfish dolts have the capacity to drive customers away.

Blizzard doesnt even HAVE PVP servers anymore, they have war mode instead..the pvp servers werent..because of the massive faction imbalances they never addressed or cared about.

if Blizzard was, tomorrow, to abandon this garbage design, focus pvp in instances alone, do some serious work on the open world, theyd be surprised at the results..

TBH what WOW needs is its own Calamity and a hard reset. What they have now is NOT working. If they had an ounce of sense, they'd close it down, restart with a new game engine , modern gameplay elements, a new and improved story taken from the boatload of content they obliterated.

I wont go into detail as to how I know, but I am aware of one "test drive" MMO that experimented with the WOW systems..the massive backlash they received "We will NOT pay for a game that allows this" was reason enough to abandon this outdated, outmoded, primitive game design.

The average gamer these days is in their 30's, as a consequence their BS tolerance is VERY short , they will not hesitate in slamming their wallets shut. MMOs cost a mint to make, bad word of mouth can kill it faster than Dalamud's fall.

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But then Blizzard always wanted world PvP to be a standard part of the game. They only added the Normal servers (which weren't even true PvE servers) because they knew they'd miss out on a lot of money from those who wanted a RPG but weren't interested in PvP.

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And yet , decades later, the fact that most PVE gamers dont give a rats hind leg for "wurld pee vee pee" STILL hasnt penetrated their thick skulls.

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Their expectation had been that players killing enemy quest givers would bring out players from the other faction to defend the NPCs and attack the enemy players. It seemed to work fairly well in Vanilla..

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Again, this is the 2004 mindset and approach. Out of date. Archaic. Backwards. This follows on with that idiotic "faction war" that they refuse to let go of "It was the basis of the original game" yeah and the Model T Ford was the basis of modern automobiles..............how many Model T Fords do we see on the roads now?

Twenty years is a long time where the gaming industry is concerned. Time for the WOW devs to get their act together.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

GW2's WvW are kind of fun, though they also feel like you're just going with the herd half the time xD

I do wonder, though, wouldn't they just be "more elaborate Frontlines?"

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Yup, they're quite literally server-wide Frontlines, and Frontlines as we know them are an unbalanceable zergfest dumpster fire that everyone only does because it's worth half a bar of XP even if you lose soooooo.....

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Yup, they're quite literally server-wide Frontlines, and Frontlines as we know them are an unbalanceable zergfest dumpster fire that everyone only does because it's worth half a bar of XP even if you lose soooooo.....

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I was actually talking about this a couple days ago to some friends. Frontlines are literally miniature WvWvW, for better or for worse, and it'd be really nice if they'd add different styles of frontlines to the game, such as capture the flag, ACTUAL defend the point (unlike what we have now), king of the hill, etc. Some of WoW's battlegrounds and Guild Wars 1's (ONE, not TWO) Jade Quarry, Fort Aspendwood, and Alliance Battles were so much fun and I wish we had access to those styles of modes here.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I was actually talking about this a couple days ago to some friends. Frontlines are literally miniature WvWvW, for better or for worse, and it'd be really nice if they'd add different styles of frontlines to the game, such as capture the flag, ACTUAL defend the point (unlike what we have now), king of the hill, etc. Some of WoW's battlegrounds and Guild Wars 1's (ONE, not TWO) Jade Quarry, Fort Aspendwood, and Alliance Battles were so much fun and I wish we had access to those styles of modes here.

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Yeah they just need to copy WoWs Battlegrounds. Frontlines is severely lacking and considering how its a very popular mode to queue for due to exp, I hope they can address this soon.

I think CC is a pretty neat style, I like the payload-push thing and spammed it after it released but when it comes to BGs in general, FF is unfortunately really lacking.
There's a ton of ideas out there, not just in WoW but also Rift or SW:TOR. I don't remember a lot from other games but there's definitely a lot of potential. Even Ragnarok Online PvP (WoE) would work: you have a team that defends a castle with a few different levels and a team that tries to take it and if they kill the crystam in the heart of the castle, they switch. In RO multiple teams could attack the same castle which was actually fair (mostly) since defending was A LOT easier than attacking and once the Emp was taken, every non-taking team got yeeted out of the castle and the taker team could now set up a defense.
There's a lot of fun stuff you can with BG styles with a wide spectrum of being fairly "non-confrontational" to "carnage everywhere", from straightforward "kill people, lots of people" to strategic approaches, from small to large scale, from only using the player to using a wide array of things like siege machines and special buffs/ skillsets.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I was actually talking about this a couple days ago to some friends. Frontlines are literally miniature WvWvW, for better or for worse, and it'd be really nice if they'd add different styles of frontlines to the game, such as capture the flag, ACTUAL defend the point (unlike what we have now), king of the hill, etc. Some of WoW's battlegrounds and Guild Wars 1's (ONE, not TWO) Jade Quarry, Fort Aspendwood, and Alliance Battles were so much fun and I wish we had access to those styles of modes here.

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Decline of objective based PvP IMO started with FPS games. Back in the days of stuff like Unreal Tournament PvP FPS games regularly had multiple objective based game modes to play on and those objectives added depth to the match. Now pretty much all you see is shoot ppl till you die or win.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I was actually talking about this a couple days ago to some friends. Frontlines are literally miniature WvWvW, for better or for worse, and it'd be really nice if they'd add different styles of frontlines to the game, such as capture the flag, ACTUAL defend the point (unlike what we have now), king of the hill, etc. Some of WoW's battlegrounds and Guild Wars 1's (ONE, not TWO) Jade Quarry, Fort Aspendwood, and Alliance Battles were so much fun and I wish we had access to those styles of modes here.

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Crystalline Conflict has proven to be a HUGE success...probably much more than the devs expected... so Id definitely get behind this idea....with one specific condition. The chat system as it is has to stay, toxic players wont have the opportunity to vent their spleens, which in a way is as it should be.

Provided it is instanced, provided it is kept OUT of the open world, Im all for it.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

TBH what WOW needs is its own Calamity and a hard reset. What they have now is NOT working. If they had an ounce of sense, they'd close it down, restart with a new game engine , modern gameplay elements, a new and improved story taken from the boatload of content they obliterated.

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"WoW should hard reset like FF14 did with 2.0"

And people really think that the devs should listen to GDs regardless of the game? Taking a twenty year old game and essentially rebooting would be a final nail in the coffin for a lot of players who have a lot of history to their characters.

It would be like deciding to have another Calamity after Endwalker and resetting FF14.

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Taking a twenty year old game and essentially rebooting would be a final nail in the coffin for a lot of players who have a lot of history to their characters.

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I dont remember saying anything about characters. I said the world needs fixing. it does. The engine they use is old and wheezing, for gods sake they cant even manage a universal day night cycle. The game needs a hard reset with a new engine and a load of QoL systems they havent bothered with up until now.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I dont remember saying anything about characters. I said the world needs fixing. it does. The engine they use is old and wheezing, for gods sake they cant even manage a universal day night cycle. The game needs a hard reset with a new engine and a load of QoL systems they havent bothered with up until now.

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I dont disagree but the problem is always going to be time developed vs. profit. Especially with dev time, testing, bug fixing, implementation.

Do remember FF14's 2.0 engine took two years straight of development alongside Crystal Tools mashing it together.

"Not even a universal day night cycle"? If that is your big issue with it, you have some first world problems.
I find the mailbox system with 20 items stored max, 5 items per letter, cap of 1mil gil per letter and only to people on friend list and no alt mailing far more annoying and restricting than not having a universal day night cycle. If you want to complain about lack of QoL, don't pretend that FFXIV is bursting with QoL everywhere.

WvW from Fail Wars 2 is crap (even more nowadays from what I’ve read). Years with the same maps, same overpowered classes and most awful balance patches I have ever seen in gaming.

Zergs vs Zergs is already a thing in Frontlines. It’s honestly the most dull and messy pvp mode.

I wouldn’t be against it if it was carefully done with good twists. Considering current PvP, I don’t think we’ll have ressources ever put into that since many players don’t like FF PvP in the first place.

The game netcode and snapshotting system is horrible for any sort of pvp without leading to a lot of frustration

As someone who plays GW2 and knows current state of WvW, I say no. Also, what about fresh worlds? Naaah. It would be useless and give nothing to this game.

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"Not even a universal day night cycle"? If that is your big issue with it, you have some first world problems.

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Thats a nice way to dismiss one of a long list of things everyone else can do but Blizzard "can't do it ™

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Thats a nice way to dismiss one of a long list of things everyone else can do but Blizzard "can't do it ™

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Conveniently ignoring that SE can't do things that everyone else can do.
So who's dismissing what now?

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

"Not even a universal day night cycle"? If that is your big issue with it, you have some first world problems.
I find the mailbox system with 20 items stored max, 5 items per letter, cap of 1mil gil per letter and only to people on friend list and no alt mailing far more annoying and restricting than not having a universal day night cycle. If you want to complain about lack of QoL, don't pretend that FFXIV is bursting with QoL everywhere.

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One thing I can hugely commend WoW even though so many people like to meme how old and janky the engine is....it STILL manages to pull off a lot of the basic features that stump FFXIV's engine really hard and still has yet to properly do and its kinda embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

One thing I can hugely commend WoW even though so many people like to meme how old and janky the engine is....it STILL manages to pull off a lot of the basic features that stump FFXIV's engine really hard and still has yet to properly do and its kinda embarrassing.

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That's because they make upgrades to the engine with each expansion, which helps a ton. That is why everything from armor sets and weapons to open world objects and mounts all look better as the years go on. I don't think FF XIV has ever really had a substantial engine upgrade since ARR, and I would argue that even the rebuilt version of FF XIV started off with an outdated engine.