Ultimate Representation: Good, Bad, or Indifferent?

God this is stupidly long...you said so much. Liberal HB tags here to try and cut this somewhat down to size.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

You're using the FPS again, and it's still not making sense to me.

Then instead of telling me what I'm thinking, ask me questions. Ask me how I see it, let me explain, and if it doesn't make sense, ask questions. Don't tell me what I'm thinking, ask me targeted questions that you think would help you actually understand. Because clearly me saying what I'm thinking and telling you when you're wrong about what I'm thinking isn't working...

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

'Keep one of them really simple and boring to play for anyone with a modicum of skill at the game, with no room for skill expression because that might scare the 'real healer' players, the 'fake healer' dps wannabes have three other healers to pick from'.

The thing is, you know this is false. You say so here, and I've posted so before:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Many words, many quotes, to say:

YES, that is my position, and I've said it many times before. It's also why I've never accused anyone of not being a "real healer" and why I'm always confused when you level that accusation - not only have I not ever said it, I don't believe it, and what I have said is in opposition to the notion.

Cure and Medica WHMs in ARR were Healers. DoT refreshing, Ruin spamming, Lustrate cheese support healing through Cleric dancing SCHs were Healers. They were BOTH Healers in a game design that allowed both playstyles and had a great synergy dynamic between them. That's what I think is the ideal to shoot for. A recognition of all the Healer groups and at least one Healer Job that is focused on each so everyone has at least one they can enjoy playing.

Some people straddle lines - for example, I like Pure Healing and Buff Healing/Support - so no one would necessarily be limited if they enjoyed more than one. But every group should have at least one, and then we can all work together to kill pixels that the game tells us are bad pixels. Together. As friends and allies. As fellow Warriors of Light.

So clearly your interpretation is wrong, and you recognize that. So, ask me the questions that would help you actually understand what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I don't know if you refer to aesthetics, complexity, curry or what at this point.

Clearly not curry, since I wanted to talk about wings and have never had curry. In fact, you were the one that kept bringing up curry. I'm talking about complexity. I've been talking about complexity the entire time. I've been pointing out you want to keep talking about aesthetics, but I have not been. I'm talking about mechanical complexity and always have been. My stated position (as again presented above) is that I want Jobs within roles to have varying complexity, so all types of gamers can find at least one they enjoy. I even said once that I would sacrifice my own preferred aethetics to this end since it would make other people happy. If every Healer being a complex DPS focused Job except AST with AST playing like present day WHM with Cards (which...is basically how it plays, just if Cards were GCDs to make the weaving less carpel-tunnel inducing) is what made everyone happy, I'd be all for it and would swap to AST - the Healer I don't simply not like, but I actively DISlike aesthetically (never been into Tarot or occult or any of that) - so that everyone can at least have one Healer they enjoy playing on and we can all be happy together.

I even have outright said multiple times I don't even care which is which. If we make WHM the non-complicated one, that makes the most SENSE, but I've said before I'd be open to it being SGE or AST, or even SCH, as each one could have some argument for it (SGE starts later for people who leveled something else - even WHM - to swap to and get into healing; AST already has a simple DPS kit, it would just need to have its direct heals and oGCDs streamlined and made more straightforward AND you could even introduce the two stances so players could toggle between the "easy" Diurnal or the "hard" Nocturnal if they wanted the harder, "classic" AST experience; and SCH makes the least sense as it's always been the "big brain Healer", but DOES make some sense in the way it starts at level 1 with ACN and that it shares its class with another "easy" Job, SMN, meaning players wanting the "easy" experience could get a two-fer with SCH/SMN, they'd just need to allow ACN to que for a Healer in low level content if the player wished to and maybe give ACN a weaker Medica 1 equivalent that upgrades to Succor for SCH while being as "not worthy of being on your hotbar" weakness for SMN as Physic is)

I've made this clear so many times, I'm confused how you're still confused about it. But again, ask me the question. Instead of saying it with snark "I don't know if you're talking about aesthetics or complexity or curry or what" is KIND of snarky; ask me "Ren, I'm still not understanding this, so I'll just ask: Are you talking about aesthetics or complexity?" That would still be frustrating, because I've said this - and quite clearly, and I believe to you directly before, but at least then I could answer it, as I did just now:

Complexity.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

You've gone round in circles so much about it all I feel like I'm reading Uzumaki.

More snark. For the sake of congeniality, I'll disregard.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Every time you try to explain your design, it doesn't come off to me as 'better' or 'more inclusive', because it doesn't even come off as 'functional'.

Okay, now see, this is something we can talk about. I mean, I've explained how it's absolutely more inclusive, so you not seeing that at this point is because you don't want to. I don't think I used the term better, but I was saying your plan was worse since it was less inclusive. Indeed, all the times I've said how your plan would exclude people from content, you've either not addressed it or given the counter of "git good", so I suspect even you can see it at this point, you just don't want to admit it. But again, if you DON'T think so, ask me questions. Specific questions like "how is it more inclusive?" or "in what way is it more inclusive?" and actually listen to the answers.

As far as "functional" - again, this is literally how ARR worked, and it worked. So it's clearly functional. Not to mention most functional arguments are based on balance number tuning, meaning almost anything would be functional in this game. They could make a Healer that has only a single AOE healing button that does sufficient damage to always keep the party alive, has a low MP cost so they'd never go OOM spamming it, and did AOE damage equivalent to a Glare on the first target. This Job would be boring as all hell, mind you, but it would be entirely functional in the game space. So you're going to have to define that a LOT more narrowly. Clearly what I proposed is functional in a general sense. How do you mean?

It wouldn't be fair to people who mastered the complex Job? That's not an argument of functionality.

It would be too god in low level content? How is that not functional? Not to mention casual content is made for a dipping bird on a keyboard to clear it, and we all know that; just in case your argument was going to be the complex Jobs being played by lower skilled players would somehow not be able to clear it.

So what do you mean by "functional", EXACTLY? Please be specific.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I'm sure you can say the same about mine, but that doesn't make either of us 'more right' or 'less right' about which direction would increase healer engagement, until one or the other is put into practice.

I think the difference here, and why I think my model is better, is that my model allows people to play the way you want to play and allows people to play the way Healers in the game are right now. There's zero possibility that would make Healer engagement LOWER (if by Healer engagement here we mean number of people playing the Role) since all the people that like it now would presumably still play it, and those who do not like it now and want more complexity (and maybe are playing a DPS or Tank right now because they don't like current Healer design) would have those complex Healer Jobs to jump on and play. And I've said (as noted above) I don't even care which one it is that goes into which camp.

The only people who wouldn't play Healer under my model would be the ones that were dead set on a specific aesthetic but didn't like what happened to it (e.g. loved simple SCH but don't want to play complex SCH) and those high skill players who want to be doing oodles more damage than the low skilled ones on the "baby healer" Job. But as Misshapen Chair said "Shut up about a whole 2% dps differential"; those people would still probably be playing on the newly complex Healers, and if they weren't, they're probably largely not playing Healer NOW, so that wouldn't be a reduction in the numbers.

Conversely, your model would mean that all current low and mid-skilled Healers would no longer be able to clear content, meaning many would likely leave the Role. As many players DO enjoy current healing (or at least tolerate it), unlike with my system, we have no guarantees those people would continue healing under yours. I likely would not, and would transition to DPS or Tanking. With your method, we have two unknowns - how many would leave the role and how many would join it. And we don't at all know which would likely be the larger number. With my system, while we know some people would leave, it would very likely be far less as there would still be at least one Job accommodating their play, and the ones upset about the aesthetics goes double for your system, the players upset they aren't vastly outperforminng others likely aren't playing Healers now (and those that are are likely at least vaguely content ENOUGH with it, so we'd expect them to keep playing), and we can expect your system to post similar losses in the one area mine might post some, from the people upset that the Job they like no longer has the playstyle they like.

But yours doesn't encourage people to stick around who enjoy it today like mine does. Where yours shines by appealing to people wanting complex Healers, so does mine, so we'd still net those new players (unless they wanted a complex Healer and ONLY WHM and were unwilling to accept ANYTHING else...but if so, they clearly aren't playing Healer today, so that, again, isn't a loss in Healer numbers). And where mine would lose people that want simple SCH, AST, and SGE, yours would lose them, too. So the net losses would LIKELY be higher under yours, and the net gains that yours might provide be just as high with mine. Literally the only people not liking mine who like yours would be elitists who want to look down their noses at people not "working as hard" as them, and people who want complex WHMs. And note, mine is still the mid-point solution between what we have now vs what you want. It's not the extreme position opposing yours - that's "what we have now".

That is, in the cases my idea would lose players, so would yours.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

All I can do is base my assertions on the evidence of what I've seen in the past 6 years or however long I've been doing Savage content. And what I've seen is that people actually did keep up with the DPS skillset of healers back in HW and SB. Especially SB, once Cleric was 'fixed'.

The problem is, far fewer people played both the game and higher end content at the time. It was a much higher caliber of average skill that raided in HW, and I think you know that as well. Many people playing Healers now started in ShB or EW. There are a LOT of new players in FFXIV, probably 1/3rd of our playerbase started since ShB. To them, ShB is "the good old days". They don't remember and didn't play SB or HW era. And I'll note again that WHM was not significantly different during that time, either, especially when it came to non-Savage content. You can't use that to indicate what would happen now with the whole playerbase. That's only indicative of how the roughly 1/2 to 2/3rds of players would react.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

My point is, if you're in a Mythic Raid and the fight is tuned to expect you to deal damage as a Holy Paladin, don't go being surprised when it turns out you hit the enrage because you're missing the damage.

Right, but FFXIV is NOT currently designed for Healers to play complex rotations to beat Enrages. You know that. So that's a change. You're arguing in favor of a change, so you can't appeal to the status quo to support your proposal. WoW is designed to expect Holy Paladins to melee. Great. Good for them. (a) not every Healer in WoW is designed to melee, and (b) FFXIV encounters are designed to beat enrage with WHM spamming Glare.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Evoker is the best example of a class with low skill floor, high skill ceiling.

And again, that's fine. I'm advocating FOR FFXIV to have some Healer Jobs that have low skill floors and high skill ceilings. So why are you arguing this point? I've already agreed with it. I just don't agree that EVERY Healer Job should be designed that way. If one has a low skill floor and high skill ceiling, another has a low skill floor and low skill ceiling, and another has a high skill floor and high skill ceiling; that's perfectly fine. Who are you arguing against?

And one having a complex healing kit is fine. I...again, who are you arguing against here? It's clearly not me.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I have only played Halo 1, once. I'm pretty sure that, while the 'map and mission' was the same, the layout of enemies, the number of them, and how tough they were, all increased based on difficulty,

Not really on most of that. Generally the enemies are mostly the same, they're just the higher ranked/upgraded versions (e.g. more of the red Elites than the lower difficulty Blue ones) and have lower health. The game is the same and you can do all the missions and all the content. But this is all somewhat beside the point - as you said, talking about curry is confusing more than it is useful (note that was a Ty original, not mine; Ty likes to come up with examples to try to give a different way of thinking about the topic, which I find is great, but the problem is when you don't understand the allegory we're going for, it just becomes confusing.)

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

What's the difference between P8S Phase 1 on Normal, and on Savage?

Different mechanics, different encounter phases, an entire second phase that is unlocked, different gear on completion, different rewards in general, and in the case of the 4/8/12 of each tier, additional story and music.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Strong assertion, but the only way to know for sure 'how hard it would flop' is to put it into practice.

So why not use what I propose instead as a medium point?

Implement it, see how it works. If everyone quit the "easy" Job and was playing the complex one, that would indicate you were right, and we could push for all of them to be made complex at that time. The only reason to do it all at once is to remove that metric.

Say we did what I want and everyone picked the easy Jobs. That would provide evidence you're wrong. If we do what you want and it doesn't work, not only do we not know if Healers want simple or complex (because we didn't give them the option, we gave them complex or nothing), if it DIDN'T work, there'd be a crash in the Healer population, which would be very bad for the game and force a mid-expansion reversion, which would be HORRIBLE for the game.

The worst case scenario for your proposal is extremely bad, while if your idea is right (that people want complex Healer Jobs) is true, doing my proposal would provide us the evidence to support that.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

But at the same time, the absolute majority of this game's playerbase doesn't even do the content where 'you need to play your class at least kind of correctly to beat the DPS check' is a thing. Most of the playerbase's endgame is Limsa Lominsa.

According to all we can tell, the majority of players in the game play Extremes now (which have Enrages), and at least 20-25% are clearing the FINAL BOSS of each tier, meaning a lot more are trying but not completing it. Estimates range from 30% to over 50% of players clearing P1S, P5S, etc. Meaning the majority of players do content with DPS checks, including the first Savage bosses of each tier, and there's no evidence that "most of the playerbase's endgame is Limsa Lominsa". It seems, in fact, to be the opposite.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

You get the story from Normal mode.

There is no second phase of the 4th fight in normal.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

You get bragging rights from Savage, and absolutely sod all else.

Mounts, dyable gear, titles...

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Want the mount, or the gear?

Oh, so you see that they ARE different. At least we're clear on them being different. Now we get to you being an elitist. Great...that I'm not going to try to defeat, since I learned a long time ago it's impossible to get Elitists to not want to be Elitist.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Yoshida said recently, in light of the third party tool debacle regarding the World First for TOP:

Yes, he DID say that.

About ULTIMATE content. Not Savage. Not Extremes. ULTIMATES only.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Or if we jiggle it ever so slightly, so it has the same sentiment,

No, it doesn't. Because the Ultimate content IS ALREADY DESIGNED for Healers as they are today. If anything, it wouldn't be designed for the complex Healers you want to add. Now you're not just putting words in my mouth, you're putting them in Yoshi P's as well.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Like, I don't get it. I do the hard content because I want to challenge myself. I can only find that challenge IN that hard content, because the classes themselves don't have it.

...and that's great.

I also do hard content because I like the challenge. Of the boss encounters. I don't consider or like complex rotations as "challenge", which is why I don't do most hard content on DPSers. I do them on Healers or Tanks. So do a lot of other people. Who all don't like DPS rotations and don't consider them challenging or fun. I consider most of them to be tedious, uninteresting, clunky, and BORING. I find the join the the encounter mechanics, not the DPS rotation. I can do a flawless DPS rotation in normal modes. I don't need to be in an Extreme or Savage to do a DPS rotation.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If the classes had more skill ceiling to partake in, maybe I wouldn't feel apathetic after getting BIS. I enjoyed progging the tier. I did not enjoy doing reclears of the tier once I had BIS. Contrast that to something like SB, in Alphascape I farmed EVERY O12S weapon. And enough books to also have enough to immediately buy the GNB and DNC ones. I never got tired of the fight, but if it were released now, with me being a healer main, with the healers as they currently are? It'd be another 'farm until BIS on all four healers, burn out and stop doing reclears'.

How much of that was how "exciting" having 3 more DPS buttons was vs the encounters just being better and less same-y?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I'm gonna assume people do read your posts, and mine, and have understood them, agreed/disagreed with them.

Given as I've noted that people constantly tell me I'm saying the opposite of what I'm saying, as you've even done here - and even things that I outright have said I'm not - that's a bad assumption. You opened this post with the "real healer" nonsense, a position I've outright said I don't hold, and in a threat you even replied to me having said to rebut my positions there. And that's not even the only time I've said that!

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

There's a like button to show approval of posts. Mine seem to get more than yours on average.

As I said to IDontPetLalas above, all that proves is that some people support your position. And come now, you get 5-7. That's not exactly a stampede of approval. And you do so in posts where you, as I said above, attack positions I'm not even holding.

Like I literally have condemned "real healer" talk and said I believe we're all Healers, yet you keep trotting that out.

I've outright said I support the game having complex Healer Jobs and ones with a low skill floor and high skill ceiling (as long as they aren't ALL that way), and yet you argue the point as if it's in contention and as if I'm saying "NO! No Healer Job may have a high skill ceiling!!!", a position I not only don't hold, my position is outright INCOMPATIBLE WITH and I've spoke directly against AND have even outright said that I support and agree with you that at least some Healer Job should have.

...and when I do, you never admit you were wrong or apologize for it. Not ONCE. At best, you deflect, generally to "Well, okay, so why some and not all?" never admitting that you YET AGAIN made a false attack line and not apologizing for misrepresenting me or beating a dead horse I already joined you in beating to death. It's highly frustrating.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

So I assume that it's fair to say, those likes are from people who have read the full post, and agree to it enough to bother clicking the like button.

I don't think that's fair at all, as we don't see people supporting those individual arguments. We often see a "I agree with everything she just said", which is very much like this, the "Presidential Debate" scene from Futurama: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3iyvbsRDM

And there are about 9-10 people who openly contest me on these forums. Ever notice how none of your posts (or any of the ones contesting me) ever get above about 9 likes? Usually 4-7? Because it's the same people who just agree with what you want (all Healer Jobs being made complex), some of whom, like you, are still somehow under the illusion that I want NO Healers to be made complex, and just liking each other's posts, not because they're great posts, but because they agree with the position of the person saying them and/or disagree with the other person's (or what they THINK the other person's) position is?

It's like those people who mindlessly like posts and Tweets and stuff from politicians and ideologues that they agree with and dislike those from ones they oppose, never bothering to watch the videos/read the actual comments if they're over a certain length. "Oh, this is a known Trump supporter - dislike". "Oh, this person is a Biden apologist - dislike". "Oh, this person supports my views on climate change - like". "Oh, this person disagrees with me on climate change - dislike, and I think I'll like the people attacking him, because yeah, f--- him!"

Moreover, likes are heavily influenced by the mindsets of people and the venue. Go over to the Tank forums. There are several threads about the PLD changes. Across them all, there are something like a dozen people that like the change, a dozen who do not, and twice that who are tepid but don't feel strongly. The ones attacking New PLD often get tons of likes and those saying it's cool get less, even though objectively, they're often better arguments based on actual metrics and come from people who are being less knee jerk and talking about the topic more reasonably.

Likes are probably the least reliable metric in all of the internet for judging positions or arguments.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If people aren't liking your posts, it's not just 'cos they didn't read',

I wasn't talking about people liking my posts or not. I was talking about people saying that I was saying things that I outright said I was not saying. Yes, that DOES indicate they didn't even read the post, or didn't bother to try to understand what they were reading.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Your arguments are flawed,

So are yours.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

your wording is antagonistic at times,

And yours isn't? Yours absolutely is.

Even you have to realize a lot of your replies to me are filled with snark and smugness. You're not even the only one. I'm not even sure you're the most egregious.

CLEARLY the likes aren't based on if someone's words are antagonistic or by people supporting a person opposing antagonism; if they were, or your posts would have none.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

they think your solution to the problem is not the best one for the game,

And that's fine. None of what ANY of us says here will have an impact on the game anyway. Come 7.0, Healers will most likely be exactly as they are today. I just feel personally that it's important to represent other perspectives. God forbid a Dev ever actually read this and decided everyone holds your position and that there are no others...

On the off chance the Devs DO read any of this, they need to see that your position isn't universal. That's all I really represent here. I can see why you might not like that - since it might lead to any Devs reading this seeing your position ISN'T universal - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to post my position or advocate for it and this forum is only for you and people like you to post in.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I am not clapping back with 'you want every job to be easy'. I am clapping back with 'why does one job get forced to stay in the current format, with no skill ceiling to aim for?'

Okay, another useful point in your post.

I'm going to avoid doing the thing I chastise others for and take you telling me what you think at face value. So, from your perspective, you aren't saying that I want every Job to be easy. That's a start. Let's unpack the second piece. "Why does one job get forced to stay"

I've talked to you about this before. (Again, more support for the "don't read posts" camp...) From my perspective, it's not "forced to stay", it's "privleged to stay".

To my way of thinking, what you want is what is unappealing. Complex DPS rotation Healers aren't fun. They've never been fun. They aren't the good ones. But despite this, like how there's always that person that likes the worst gun in an FPS or the most nerfed unicorn of a class no one else plays in an MMO or the "joke fighter" or "handicap fighter" like Dan from Street Fighter or Jigglypuff (so people thought...) in the original Smash; there are some people that DO find it fun.

And I want them to be able to have some of those so they can have fun!

Thus they're a needed addition to satisfy more people and draw more people to the role. One I'm more than willing to entertain because while I personally find the design as unappealing, I recognize that other people like things I don't like, and I want them to be able to enjoy them - a position you clearly do not share (hence me saying my position is inclusive while yours is not; you don't want me to be able to enjoy the game while I DO want you to be able to - something else I've pointed out before).

So it's not a negative or a bad thing. To me, the simple Healer will be the fun one. That's a positive thing, not a negative thing. It's not "why does one job get forced to say", it's "One Job gets to keep being awesome, but we'll nerf the other ones for players that genuinely want to play a nerfed Job".

Moreover, the Job would still have a skill ceiling, it would just be lower and would likely be more inclined to things like mastering encounters (you can argue every Job does this, but to some people, like me, they find "the dance" fun, not DPS rotations) and perhaps mastering a healing or buffing kit for personal satisfaction, not for more DPS rotation.

So what I'm saying is "Why do you want to rob people of having one Healer Job that isn't nerfed and made for masochists only? I'm willing to give you multiple nerfed, sadistic Jobs so you can enjoy them, why must you demand them all?"

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If we are moving three of the healers away from the current format because 'current format not good', then it is completely illogical to leave one of them IN that flawed format.

Another good one, because this is again something I can explain to you:

That's not the reason we're moving them from the current format.

We're moving them from the current format - in my proposal - because "some people would enjoy something else". Note the SOME people, meaning some OTHER group of people would not, and enjoy the current model. The reason for the shift, here, is to make the Healer role more inclusive and allow more people to enjoy the game, not because the current design itself is horribly bad and no one likes it, nor that the more complex design is good and everyone wants it. Hence the logic is in keeping at least one as it is now, since there are people that enjoy Healers as they currently exist, and in making the role more inclusive, we don't want to actively EXclude the people who enjoy it as it is today.

That's the actual logic being used here.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I suggested raising the skill ceiling precisely because it would mean that people can still play this current format, provided they accept that if they do so, they are not going to be able to do 'content that the game itself asks them to strive for the ceiling to clear'.

There are two problems with this argument:

1) THE GAME ITSELF is not asking them to have a higher skill ceiling to clear it. You WANT the game itself to do so, but it currently IS NOT doing so. This is again why I don't think you read my posts: I've told you this AT LEAST TWICE before now.
2) You're also openly saying that people would not be able to clear content THAT THEY CURRENTLY ARE CLEARING. This means your idea is less inclusive/more exclusive than my own. To answer the above point on that.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If they can do savage now, they can improve at their class,

Not everyone is good AT DPS ROTATIONS. Some people have mental or physical handicaps preventing it. Some people can overcome those, others cannot. It is not true that anyone who is good at CURRENT Savage content on Healer (which, so we're clear, requires being able to execute boss mechanics while mostly pressing one damage button, and allows for clears with both players using GCD heals and oGCD heals) is not necessarily good at DPS rotations. It's like when a game development studio has artists and is ahead of schedule in art assets but behind schedule in coding, and people say "Stop having those people work on art and get them to code!" The skill sets are not transferable. While SOME artists may also be coders, many will not be. And while SOME artists can code or learn to code, many cannot.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

if they can't improve at their class, they shouldn't have been in Savage in the first place.

Clearly, the game itself disagrees with you.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

This is not me being 'elitist'

I mean, it is. Kinda by definition. The encounters themselves clearly don't require it, and they're contributing to the clears. So very clearly, they are entitled to and deserving of them, they aren't "being carried". That's a very elitist attitude to have, kind of by definition. They're executing the mechanics correctly, they're performing their Job's rotation, they're using their Job's utility abilities, and so on. They're doing all the things that are required to clear, so they are not "being carried".

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

'I can ignore Samantha, she is wrong because <elitist>'.

There are many things I think when replying to your posts. Not once have I thought "ignore". If I did, I wouldn't ever hit "Reply With Quote".

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If someone can work out...

So, if someone can draw a fantastic painting, they can be a master sculptor or pianist? If someone has a PhD in physics, that's kinda the same as them having a PhD in biology, right? If someone is a heart surgeon, they can be a brain surgeon, too, right? It's the same thing, right?

...maybe now you see that they aren't, in fact, the same thing or realm of thing.

In one case, you're looking at a map, looking at buffs/debufs, and walking.

In the other case, you're looking at ability interactions and rotation, generally while ALSO doing the buff/debuff and walking thing. Also while healing.

Different skillsets. I'm genuinely confused why you don't understand that. I mean, you've even acknowledged it before when talking about how you want encounters that require you to do the dance while ALSO doing a rotation, as the two are distinct. So why see them as distinct but then say they're not distinct?

You can refuse to believe it, but that's you being stubborn, not me being disingenuous.

It's also not the reason I've given for keeping one Healer the same. You're being disingenuous by continually insisting it is...

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

And Arcane Mages of today would tell you that the Cata version of the spec was braindead, boring, and had no direction or cohesion.

And they would be wrong.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

and take talents that make it 'less complex' to play.

When FFXIV introduces talent trees (a position it's utterly moved away from), then we can discuss talents.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

wouldn't have the same output as someone who was playing with the 'optimal talents',

The thing is, not using optimal talents doesn't mean not beating enrage. So this also isn't a good parallel for what you're proposing.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Which brings us back to the crux of the matter:

No, THAT isn't the crux of the matter. The crux of the matter is this:

"Why should people be forced to change what they're doing to clear content they already enjoy, when there's another option that allows both for other players to do so if they wish while not forcing it on those who wish not to?"

The main reason I can think of, offhand, is the elitist one - that you don't believe those people deserve the content the game itself presently says they do deserve, and you wish to take that away from them unless they meet your standards. Another could be selfishness - that you aren't trying to be an elitist, you just want every Healer to play the way you like so YOU can enjoy them all, and unlike me, you don't care if this means other players aren't able to have fun anymore and don't want them to have any Jobs that they can have fun on; you know as well as I do being limited in what content you an do isn't "fun".

And you'd hate it if we added complex Healers, but they weren't allowed in Extremes, Savages, or Ultimates. Basically Limited Jobs. You wouldn't be arguing "Well, I'd still love it because I could play them......in content that doesn't matter." Yet, this is what you're arguing here: "People can still play Healers simple, they just will be limited and be unable to play Extremes, Savages, or Ultimates". If we flipped that, you obviously wouldn't consider having complex Healers that couldn't do Extremes, Savages, or Ultimates to be fair to you or to meet your needs and let you enjoy playing them and be happy. So it's clearly bad to assume that people would be if the simple playstyle were likewise limited.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Misery is now a 30s CD, I assume to mirror Xenoglossy. Okay, so now you have no damage-recoup mechanism for the Lilies.

Basically yes on the Xenoglossy. I wasn't proposing this as a solution, just using it as an example of how a kit can be non-complex while still being engaging.

As for Assize, it does more potency of damage than Glare and is AOE and does so with a heal and is instant cast so makes for a movement tool if it has a 2 charge system. At its worst, it's basically Thundercloud here, and I don't see you attacking that as a horrible mechanic on BLM, so I'd assume it wouldn't be here. Even as a GCD, it'd always be worth pressing it over Glare.

Do agree on the MP thing, though. Piety needs the Tenacity treatment of increasing damage and healing. It would still be garbage, but it wouldn't be AS garbage.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Also, you've changed WHM. Isn't the whole point of what you're asking for, that WHM doesn't get changed?

I wasn't advocating for the change. I was just using it as an easy example. We could do this same thing with SGE just as easily.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Or is it 'WHM can change, but only if it remains roughly equal in complexity to how it currently is',

This would HIGHLY depend on what the change is. But roughly equal complexity wouldn't be terrible. Note for the record what I outlined there is not roughly equal, it's a higher level of complexity, closer to RDM or at least SMN.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

But every time I've tried to say the same for this game, I'm yelled at that I'm gatekeeping or elitist or something

The only time I have or will ever attack you for being elitist is when you want to remove the ability of players to continue having content they currently have. (Though I may note when you say "don't deserve", that's also elitist thinking. But that isn't what I'm contesting you over, here.)

Ever read the Sword of Truth series? Specifically Wizards First Rule? (Not the rule, but I think that was the name of the first book)

Zeddicus explains magic and how it works in that fictional world. Additive magic and Subtractive magic.

He explains he's a practitioner of Additive Magic. He sweeps his hand down his chin and his beard grows. He then pulls out a razor to cut it, and Richard asks why he doesn't just magic it away, to which Zed replies that he's an Additive magic user. Taking away a thing would require Subtractive magic, which he does not possess. Later in the series, you learn that, once upon a time, before they were mostly hunted to extinction and a bunch of other stuff, all Wizards had Additive and Subtractive powers. It was extremely rare for one to have only one or the other, and they were considered somewhat handicapped by the rest of the Wizards. There's also a teleportation system that relies on its users having both, and only those with both sides can use it. Magic now being very rare as it is, people with both powers are rarer, still. The magic used for the Confessor creation (because they, or rather their powers, were created by both) allows her to use it, and Richard himself can (as he possesses both), but though the Sword of Truth was made using both, the process means it cannot be taken through the network itself.

Point is: I'm in favor of Additive solutions.

If you wanted to add some new Hyper-Ultimate, I wouldn't complain. That's Additive. No one is having anything taken away from them (asterisk-except in reduced Dev time/resources to other things, but let's ignore that for simplicity here) to implement it. Thus it isn't Subtractive.

But what you're advocating for is a Subtractive policy. Taking something away from people who have it now to give other people something they want instead. Unless they "git good" - or one might say "get elite" - like you perceive your self to be, in order to "deserve" it.

Indeed, one could argue the "deserve" (this is a video game, not a job, anyway) is what makes one an elitist. But I've been consistent in only attacking the desire and wish that things be taken away from people as being what I'm opposing here. I do not buy the argument of "they still have it, they just have to change to deserve it" or "they aren't losing anything, they just can't do this content, but can still do OTHER content" as valid. You're still taking things away from - excluding - people. I know you don't want to see it that way, but if people have access to a thing now, if the game says they have access to it now, and you want to take it away from them:

Yours is a Subtractive policy, is taking something away from people, and excluding people from content they presently enjoy.

The entire point of my idea is to EXPAND what people can enjoy - by offering complex Healer options where presently they do not exist - while yours is to SUBTRACT from what players can enjoy (unless they change to playing in ways they don't enjoy, in which case they aren't going to enjoy the content since they've been forced to move away from a playstyle they enjoy).

That is why we're bumping heads here.

I want Additive solutions since I want to make MORE people happy, you propose a Subtractive solution that you THINK will make more people happy which relies on unknowns like there being more people like you than like me and that people who like simple don't REALLY like simple and will adapt to and enjoy complex, despite them not picking it now, if they're just FORCED to do it long enough (which is...kinda.......well, I won't say it...), such that forcing them to would also make them happy, leading to no one being unhpapy or harmed by the change. And if some are? Well, you think they "deserve" to be unhappy anyway, since they're just lazy people who want carries and don't deserve happiness in life. Because, apparently, to deserve to enjoy and be happy, one must be a complex DPS rotation master. That's right, Heffner, Kennedy, Steve Jobs; the one thing they all had in common was obviously that they were good at DPS rotations - the key to deserving happiness and success.

I want MORE people to be happy, and my solution will satisfy even most of the people your solution would satisfy (possibly all of them) while unlike yours, mine minimizes how many are made unhappy to achieve it - that is, my solution doesn't sacrifice people, yours does.

Your solution will make lots of people unhappy, and so even if there is a net gain (a) most of that gain would be realized with my solution as well (if not all of it) and (b) you're still hurting a bunch of people to get it, no matter how net positive it could be (and we don't even have proof it WOULD be net positive...)

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I suggested interactions between parts of the kit on healers.

The problem with damage rewarding healing is if you don't do that damage, you don't get the healing, which is bad. There can be exceptions to this - I've repeatedly pitched SGE working more this way, but having GCD backup heals in case it falls through - but they must be exceptions, not the standard rule. A playstyle people can choose, not one forced on them against their will.

.

Yeah, that's as short as I can really get it. Bleh.

I'm trying more to explain my reasoning, HB that, and then present the summary/conclusion. That, and if I define a new term (Additive vs Subtractive solutions), to explain them. But maybe that'll help. "Here's the summary, if you want to see the reasoning going into it, click the hidden stuff". That and to take all the unimportant side stuff and address it, but in HB where it doesn't detract from the rest, as they're more side issues that don't help the discussion directly, but are there if needed.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Okay, anyway, I really must address the other. Hm, but how to do so with at least some brevity...

Could always just not bother, since apparently we 'don't actually read the reply' before commenting

Have they not done anything about the buff cap issue?

Talk about gimping jobs for no reason.

I think part of the issue AST suffers from is not being able to track their buffs/timers when it should be relied back via job gauge instead of the tiny buff bar. It's the same issue with BRD, why aren't their dots timers on their job gauge?

Everything in AST's kit is so disconnected from each other, it's easy to forget that it's back up while doing mechanics. There's no flow like there was in SB and ShB.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Have they not done anything about the buff cap issue?

Talk about gimping jobs for no reason.

I think part of the issue AST suffers from is not being able to track their buffs/timers when it should be relied back via job gauge instead of the tiny buff bar. It's the same issue with BRD, why aren't their dots timers on their job gauge?

Everything in AST's kit is so disconnected from each other, it's easy to forget that it's back up while doing mechanics. There's no flow like there was in SB and ShB.

Bard’s DoTs kind of are on the job gauge; each song is set to exactly 45 seconds which just so happens to be the same duration as it’s DoTs. Basically the song timer is also the DoT timer. Not that you can tell just from looking at it lol.

For Astrologian honestly I don’t think the devs expected anyone to care what the duration on cards was. Especially now it can’t be interacted with. They seem to want cards to be thought about as little as humanly possible, so Astrologians can focus on…hitting Malefic more? Lol

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Could always just not bother, since apparently we 'don't actually read the reply' before commenting

While obviously true, I actually feel when someone puts effort into saying something, it's worth taking the time to reply to. That's the respectful thing to do.

...I'll also note you got 3 likes for that comment, clearly proving what I said: "Likes are probably the least reliable metric in all of the internet for judging positions or arguments."

Quote:

Originally Posted by elioaiko

I think part of the issue AST suffers from is not being able to track their buffs/timers when it should be relied back via job gauge instead of the tiny buff bar. It's the same issue with BRD, why aren't their dots timers on their job gauge?

I kind of agree. There are TONS of things that should on Job Gauges, not buff bars. Like why are WAR and DRG self-buffs on those tiny little icons while NIN gets theirs on a clear and unambiguous gauge display, where it even acts as a clock kind of counting down how much time is left? They seriously need to look at those designs and get them sorted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renathras

While obviously true, I actually feel when someone puts effort into saying something, it's worth taking the time to reply to. That's the respectful thing to do.

...I'll also note you got 3 likes for that comment, clearly proving what I said: "Likes are probably the least reliable metric in all of the internet for judging positions or arguments."

Or maybe it means people agree with what I said in that post, that 'there's not much point in typing a massive reply, if whatever WE reply with is dismissed immediately as 'you didn't read again''.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elioaiko

Have they not done anything about the buff cap issue?

Talk about gimping jobs for no reason.

I think part of the issue AST suffers from is not being able to track their buffs/timers when it should be relied back via job gauge instead of the tiny buff bar. It's the same issue with BRD, why aren't their dots timers on their job gauge?

Everything in AST's kit is so disconnected from each other, it's easy to forget that it's back up while doing mechanics. There's no flow like there was in SB and ShB.

SE dumb as hell on this stuff, they already had the solution for the TOP-HW buffcap issue IN THE GAME. In Intermediate Relativity, you got Return IV, which placed a return position upon expiration, and gave Return I. That ALSO dropped a return position, and then gave a new debuff that would Return you to return I, then return IV. So back to TOP, why did they have to give Local Regression, Remote Regression, Local Code Smell, Remote Code Smell, Critical Overflow Smell whatever yadda yadda, when they could save debuff slots by having Local/Remote Regression II, that becomes Local/Remote I upon resolving?

As for AST, another casualty of the 2min meta. You throw out literally everything in a hectic window of 15-20s, then go back to mashing one button (mostly) for the next 100. With the old system, you'd be playing a card (or burning it) every 30s, and thinking ahead about things a lot more. Do you save that Spear with Spread in case you can't find a Balance, or reroll it to try and get the Balance, or a EwerSpire to burn up? Do you play a raidwide Arrow knowing it's 'kinda not great', or risk the reroll knowing that Bole Ewer and Spire would all be 'a hell of a lot crappier'?

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Originally Posted by Connor

They seem to want cards to be thought about as little as humanly possible, so Astrologians can focus on…hitting Malefic more? Lol

If the healer can't do their job's mechanics without thinking at all, then they might get analysis-paralysis, freeze up, and cause a wipe. And the thought that they might 'fail' at something is just too much for the precious, delicate healer playerbase, so of course SE has to protect us, from ourselves. I've said it before, but I'll repeat it again, we're plants that SE has put plastic bottle-tops over to protect us from the birds. But if a plant gets too big for it's bottle-top protection, outgrows it, that 'protection' actually strangles the plant. After a certain point, we end up like those novelty shaped watermelons.

I've also said before, I don't care if someone wipes in a raid. My motto is, if you do make a mistake, own up to it, understand HOW the mistake occured, try your damndest not to repeat it. Because, if you die in new, unique way every time, eventually you run out of ways to fail. And once that happens, you succeed by default. Every time I've screwed up in a raid and I can tell that it was me that caused the wipe, I have immediately said 'my bad'. So my question is, if we keep applying safety helmets to the role so it's not possible to make any mistakes, or if a mistake IS made, it's so inconsequential you cannot even get the feedback that tells you that a mistake WAS made, how is the player meant to improve?

It's bad enough that DPS players can potentially go months at max level not knowing their damage is awful, because the game doesn't tell you. Stone Sky Sea is an absolute joke, wildly varying between 'lmao you were 15 seconds off' and 'wow you beat it with over 20 seconds to spare' depending on the patch, job and fight combo. No matter how many times I tried, how much I practiced, I could never beat the P4S dummy as most of the DPS classes. But the healer ones fell over. 'Oh but healers aren't meant to focus on DPS so the requirement is lower', I could beat the AST one in my crafted gear, without using cards, how does that make sense? Then in the actual fight, as AST, we had multiple 50% enrages, because a RPR was meant to do approx 7.2k DPS, and was instead doing 6.2k. I don't know if SSS would have even helped them. At most it'd have told him 'you need to do your rotation different, this one doesn't work'. But it can't tell the poor sod WHY their rotation isn't good. Can SE update SSS to, idk, at least have some basic stats stuff? Like, DOT uptime, cooldown drift, resource overcap, etc?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Or maybe it means people agree with what I said in that post, that 'there's not much point in typing a massive reply, if whatever WE reply with is dismissed immediately as 'you didn't read again''.

Yeah, but unlikely.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If the healer can't do their job's mechanics without thinking at all, then they might get analysis-paralysis, freeze up, and cause a wipe. And the thought that they might 'fail' at something is just too much for the precious, delicate healer playerbase, so of course SE has to protect us, from ourselves. I've said it before, but I'll repeat it again, we're plants that SE has put plastic bottle-tops over to protect us from the birds. But if a plant gets too big for it's bottle-top protection, outgrows it, that 'protection' actually strangles the plant. After a certain point, we end up like those novelty shaped watermelons.

I've also said before, I don't care if someone wipes in a raid. My motto is, if you do make a mistake, own up to it, understand HOW the mistake occured, try your damndest not to repeat it. Because, if you die in new, unique way every time, eventually you run out of ways to fail. And once that happens, you succeed by default. Every time I've screwed up in a raid and I can tell that it was me that caused the wipe, I have immediately said 'my bad'. So my question is, if we keep applying safety helmets to the role so it's not possible to make any mistakes, or if a mistake IS made, it's so inconsequential you cannot even get the feedback that tells you that a mistake WAS made, how is the player meant to improve?

A bit unrelated, but SE does seems hell bent on doubling down with changes that potentially eliminates sour interactions between players. Healers currently felt the largest impact but I’m seeing couple of signs on neighboring role as well: tanks.

Worries that people might flame the tank for not keeping aggro? Alright let’s remove aggro management and make everything they hit generates 2000% aggro!
Worries that people might flame the tank for not knowing certain niche boss positioning? Alright let’s prevent that by making bosses resets their on their own to the middle of arena!
Worries that people might flame the tank for not making the targeted boss comfortable for melees? Alright let’s take away some positionals & make bosses hitbox humongous!

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

A bit unrelated, but SE does seems hell bent on doubling down with changes that potentially eliminates sour interactions between players. Healers currently felt the largest impact but I’m seeing couple of signs on neighboring role as well: tanks.

Worries that people might flame the tank for not keeping aggro? Alright let’s remove aggro management and make everything they hit generates 2000% aggro!
Worries that people might flame the tank for not knowing certain niche boss positioning? Alright let’s prevent that by making bosses resets their on their own to the middle of arena!
Worries that people might flame the tank for not making the targeted boss comfortable for melees? Alright let’s take away some positionals & make bosses hitbox humongous!

It's no surprise that my favorite boss in the current raid in WOW is Kurog, who is entirely about 'his position in the arena dictates which of the four movesets he will use' and my least favourites are Sennarth, Terros and Dathea, all three of whom the tank has zero agency over their positioning.

Oh yeh, also you forgot:

'Worries that people might flame the tank for keeping tankstance on for safety? Alright let’s remove the damage penalty of tankstance so they can just use it without thinking'
'Worries that people might flame the tank for dying after removing tankstance to push more damage? Alright let's make the 20% mitigation a flat bonus for picking the role, so they can press absolutely no mitigations and still survive everything outside of savage, because an actual difficulty curve where EX trials start to demand a little bit of player skill would be too much. Just go from 'everything tickles' to 'everything oneshots you' with no inbetween'

and for healers, 'Worries that people might flame the healer for running out of healing tools? Alright remove MP management, bloat healer toolkits with like 4 OGCDs too many so they always have something they can heal with. Unless they're WHM, in which case, lol, lmao, make sure to keep their healing design locked in a filing cabinet labelled 'garbo from the year 2015'
or even 'Worries that the tank might flame the healer, because they dropped low (but didn't die)? Alright let’s make it so that tanks can selfheal so hard, they dont even NEED a healer in EX roulette'

not tried it yet but I imagine that PLD is pretty up there on 'doesnt need a healer' EX runs now that you can Holy Spirit every 3 AOE GCDs

Decide to lvl up ast to 90 today out of being bored. Forgive me for saying this but its so god damn awful with the card playing, feels so much stressing and less awarding for such lil buffs that tbh am finding myself half the time forgetting to play them(then again being sage 100% so far this since ew may have caused some lazyness in me ). The nerf to redraw from 3 charges to only 1 was one of the dumbest thing ever, yes even with 3 charges you still could get unlucky rng for getting all the seals, but it still felt the changes was higher imo. This astrodyne foolishness please get rid of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

A bit unrelated, but SE does seems hell bent on doubling down with changes that potentially eliminates sour interactions between players. Healers currently felt the largest impact but I’m seeing couple of signs on neighboring role as well: tanks.

Basically yeah.

I think it's easy for people to get lost in thinking this is a Healer problem, but this is honestly a game-wide problem. And it's detrimental to each role it's applied to. Healers almost don't heal anymore, leaving them as a simple support DPS much of the time, and Tanks likewise don't do most of the things players who WANT to Tank think of, like agro management or poss positioning - two of the three legs of tanking (the other being mitigation, the only one they still somewhat interact with, but even there, because of self-sustain and even some shielding like GNB's -2 of its main 1-2-3 combo, even part of this is automatic). Much to the distaste of people that prefer the Trinity in their traditional roles.

One could also say this for the DPS roles. Melee now have almost no positionals, and boss hitboxes are the size of planets - that's not just making Tank more fail-proof, it's also making Melee fail-proof. Somewhat ironically, Ranged (though they already had the easiest rotations) and Casters (with 1.5 out of three of them being pretty easy to play) have the more challenging aspects of their roles still. BLM and 50% of the time RDM having to worry about cast times (though less than they used to), and Ranged are expected to be the "flex" party member with things like the P5S swap on Intemperance.