How to make TBN feel on par with other tank Mit.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

It needs low level skills that rank up into the lv 80/90 ones like the other tanks have.

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Let's check the low level skills then.

Heavy Swing - Fast Blade - Hard Slash - Keen Edge
Maim - Riot Blade - Syphon Strike - Brutal Shell
Berserk - Fight or Flight - Blood Weapon - No Mercy
Overpower - Total Eclipse - Unleash - Demon Slice
Defiance - Iron Will - Grit - Royal Guard
Tomahawk - Shield Lob - Unmend - Lightning Shot
Storm's Path/Eye - Rage of Halone - Souleater - Solid Barrel
Thrill of Battle - Sheltron - Dark Mind - Camouflage
Inner Beast - Spirits Within - Edge of Darkness - Danger Zone
Vengeance - Sentinel - Shadow Wall - Nebula
Mythril Tempest - Prominence - Stalwart Soul - Demon Slaughter
Holmgang - Hallowed Ground - Living Dead - Superbolide
Steel Cyclone - Circle of Scorn - Flood of Darkness - Burst Strike
Fell Cleave/Decimate - Goring Blade/Royal Authority - Salted Earth/Plunge/Carve and Spit - Sonic Break/Rough Divide/Gnashing Fang combo
Raw Intuition - Divine Veil - ? - ?
Equilibrium - Clemency - Abyssal Drain - Aurora
Upheaval - Holy Spirit - Bloodspiller/Quietus - Bow Shock
Shake It Off - Intervention - The Blackest Night - Heart of Stone
Inner Release - Requiescat - Delirium - Continuation

It's not perfectly the same, but they are getting the same sort of things within 10 levels of eachother, with slight differences such as WAR getting Raw Intuition later and DRK/GNB getting their one all the way near 70.

The only reason PLD gets Sheltron so early is because Bulwark was merged into it, which was their version of Thrill of Battle/Dark Mind/Camouflage.

I don't think you understand what I mean.

WAR has Raw Intution in the lv 50s and it becomes Bloodwhetting.
PLD Sheltron and it becomes Holy Sheltron.

Likewise Steel Cyclone becomes Fell Cleave, but DRK doesnt even get its gauge until it gets its own fell cleave.

I honestly dont think DRK even feels like a job before lv 70 as a result Its such a terrible level sync expedience.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

WAR has Raw Intution in the lv 50s and it becomes Bloodwhetting.
PLD Sheltron and it becomes Holy Sheltron.

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Right, but Bloodwhetting mostly just replaced our use of Nascent Flash in Shadowbringers, which replaced our use of Bloodbath before Stormblood. I don't see it as much of an upgrade to what we had before.

Holy Sheltron really just brought Sheltron up to TBN's level, because the earlier version of Sheltron leaves you with a giant dent in your HP bar compared to TBN, at least in a dungeon like The Burn. The issue is really just that the regen and raw mitigation makes it more versatile compared to TBN, such as for combating dots, but in a lot of cases they are pretty equal now.

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Likewise Steel Cyclone becomes Fell Cleave, but DRK doesnt even get its gauge until it gets its own fell cleave.

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Just like Flood/Edge of Darkness become Flood/Edge of Shadow. Since DRK is an off-GCD tank its version of these abilities is partially off the GCD.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's not perfectly the same, but they are getting the same sort of things within 10 levels of eachother, with slight differences such as WAR getting Raw Intuition later and DRK/GNB getting their one all the way near 70.

The only reason PLD gets Sheltron so early is because Bulwark was merged into it, which was their version of Thrill of Battle/Dark Mind/Camouflage.

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To be fair, what DRK and GNB get early on isn't half bad either.

At Lv50:
DRK has access to Dark Mind, which is miniscule in dungeons, but for those who consider the Coil raids it is fairly good. Living Dead's buff is alsoo immeasureably powerful and with no Blood skills, you have a steady stream of Souleater heals.
GNB has access to Camouflage AND Aurora, acting as a 2nd Rampart and some nice utility.
Arguably the one tank who actually suffers in that level bracket is Warrior, who lost Inner Beast healing AND mitigation and has no Equilibrium in that level bracket either. I'm saying this as someone who tried Sync Min iLV coil raids and Warrior's lack of a short CD is felt heavily there.

At Lv60:
PLD gains nothing new other than Clemency for emergencies, rest is damage and Veil.
WAR gains Raw Intuition, instantly bumping him from borderline trash to actually good for all content onwards.
DRK gains Abyssal Drain for AOE purposes. 60s is hefty for the heal potency, but it is something if you also abuse Living Dead. Also dash.
GNB gets... primarily damage, but with Camouflage and Aurora they were already comfy. Also dashes.

At Lv70:
PLD gets Intervention and Passage of Arms, along with a ranged phase and MP from AOE combo. Arguably amazing upgrades.
WAR gets Shake it Off as a counterpart to Veil, a dash and various damage tools (Upheaval, Inner Release). Good stuff.
DRK gets Blood skills and Delirium, along with TBN as a counter part to Sheltron and Raw Int, helping them with physical damage in dungeons and raids.
GNB gets... basically everything. Continuation, Heart of Stone & Light, Bow Shock.

If I were to pick for dungeons or raids, I'd avoid WAR at Lv50 (Holmgang isn't that grand this early), after Lv60 everything is fair game to me.

I can't say I'm a fan of TBN, other tank CD's are always safe and powerful, TBN Is situationally more powerful but also weaker in a lot of situations.

I understand some people enjoy the "punishing" nature of it, I personally don't, thing is TBN is actually pretty good on autos, I've had it work on autos a lot before. (Ironically it might be harder to break with better gear because TBN scales with your hp which can be a blessing or curse) I think its not good that you lose damage for messing up a "defensive", lets say the boss wants to cast then enjoy losing around a GCD's worth of damage for using a defensive.

Personally I think TBN should Reward the DRK instead for proper usage with something such as a regen (As dark already lacks sustain).

(Ironically it might be harder to break with better gear because TBN scales with your hp which can be a blessing or curse)

This ! It's really boring to see that you have better gear and so you now can't break TBN on something that break it before ! it feel like an unfair punishment !

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Valid. But it doesn't mean we cannot criticise its skills.

If comparing it to other tanks isn't valid, then sure: Is Dark Mind truly necessary? And could DRK do with a bit more durability, defensive cooldowns or sustain? Both in AoE and\or in Single Target.

If it's going to be different than the other four, it needs to feel good to play. And to a lot of people, it doesn't, either due to its damaging kit or its defensive kit. And that should be considered.

Unfortunately, this is an MMORPG and there is a role. So comparisons to other classes of that role will be innevitable.

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Fair enough. Just keep in mind that SE has been tending towards making jobs "balanced." So many jobs play similarly and if criticizing DRK makes it just WAR with a greatsword, it will be a loss.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Personally I think TBN should Reward the DRK instead for proper usage with something such as a regen (As dark already lacks sustain).

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Rewarding it is a good idea, although I still prefer ideas that make it different to other tanks such as giving a second shield.

The problem is that if you stop TBN from costing MP, then you remove the MP management. I know that the MP management becomes braindead once you get used to it, but it's still MP management and removing TBN from it is like removing Kaiten from SAM. You would just mindlessly spam Edge or Flood.

If it refunded the MP of what wasn't absorbed into the shield, then you get a sudden burst of MP which could exceed the MP cap suddenly and make it hard to play for some people.

If the shield really needs to not punish for not breaking, then the solution with the least impact would be to make it still give Dark Arts when it expires without breaking. That way you still have the MP management aspect, even if you no longer have the challenge of judging when it will or won't break.