Fight Designs & Class Balancement - Why everything is wrong and favors Melee Fantasy

huh. those posts got removed. i guess that means that mods do exist on this subforum.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

You still do about 10% more DPS than RDM, I think you can take this one L on that and still do 10% more DPS because Melee is easy.

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I wished this hyperbole would stop as it does nothing but make other ranged dps that dont know better angry.
First off all, not every melee is as strong as MNK and not every ranged dps is as bad as MCH and even those two are "only" 8.5% apart currently.
If you compare the averages of all Melees and all ranged dps you get to an actual difference of 6.5%.

Not saying that number is ok either but this 10% nonsense needs to stop.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

I wished this hyperbole would stop as it does nothing but make other ranged dps that dont know better angry.
First off all, not every melee is as strong as MNK and not every ranged dps is as bad as MCH and even those two are "only" 8.5% apart currently.
If you compare the averages of all Melees and all ranged dps you get to an actual difference of 6.5%.

Not saying that number is ok either but this 10% nonsense needs to stop.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

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Pretty sure the this entire topic is arising from the p8s dps check, so maybe you should look at that fflog instead.
Those are also the people closest to current BiS so it would make a better estimate of how things will turn out for the casual raiders down the line.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=86

Then look at the logs of people who actually finished p8s

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=87

The gap gets even wider and those are probably among the best players at each of their jobs.

P8s is skewed because groups will have funneled weapons into melees, which will shrink once all ranged get their weapons. The average of all abyssos fights is a more fair comparison imho.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

P8s is skewed because groups will have funneled weapons into melees, which will shrink once all ranged get their weapons. The average of all abyssos fights is a more fair comparison imho.

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People funnel savage weapon drops to melees, not tome weapon drops.

Weapon drops all, I might remind, still get factored into aggregates across all the fights.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

P8s is skewed because groups will have funneled weapons into melees, which will shrink once all ranged get their weapons. The average of all abyssos fights is a more fair comparison imho.

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I mean, if im going to bring you stats and you're gonna bring me guesses, I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion.
How many of the clear groups do you personally know is funneling gears for melees first? Theres 5000+ clears on dancers alone, this isn't week 1.

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Originally Posted by Housinginneed

I mean, if im going to bring you stats and you're gonna bring me guesses, I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion.
How many of the clear groups do you personally know is funneling gears for melees first? Theres 5000+ clears on dancers alone, this isn't week 1.

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Well its safe to assume that every serious group will do so, as melees are superior right now.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

as melees are superior right now.

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at least we can agree on something.

Ofc they are, its obvious and they almost always have been. I was just arguing that making a blanket statement about melee to ranged balance being 10% by comparing MCH to MNK is about as honest of an argument as someone claimig the balance is fine by comparing RPR to BLM.

The truth lies in between those two extremes.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

People funnel savage weapon drops to melees, not tome weapon drops.

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People definitely funnel tome weapon drops to melees.

I’ve chosen to ignore this issue as it doesn’t effect me, as I don’t do savage nor care about meta or so-so is better than so-so because of a 1.52% difference in DPS. And apparently so has the devs. But people need to calm down and stop saying so-so is useless because someone told me so and now ima exile it away from my PF runs for Unreal or EX.

Compared to FF other issues I’m just not passionate or invested enough to care about a couple of trial fights

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Well its safe to assume that every serious group will do so, as melees are superior right now.

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I can say mine wasn't one of these groups.
Our NIN couldn't raid anymore and they had the tome weapon.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I’ve chosen to ignore this issue as it doesn’t effect me, as I don’t do savage nor care about meta or so-so is better than so-so because of a 1.52% difference in DPS. And apparently so has the devs. But people need to calm down and stop saying so-so is useless because someone told me so and now ima exile it away from my PF runs for Unreal or EX.

Compared to FF other issues I’m just not passionate or invested enough to care about a couple of trial fights

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You care enough to come here, remind us that you apparently do not care and still tell people what they should and should not do.

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Originally Posted by rewd

You care enough to come here, remind us that you apparently do not care and still tell people what they should and should not do.

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I came here to comment, what else do you want from me. I’m sorry I’m not well versed in the balance issues as most here but it’s not consequential to me unless your doing maybe 1-2 savage trials

Balancement? Balance or balancing.

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

People definitely funnel tome weapon drops to melees.

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Depends on when that group wants to clear. World race? Maybe. Week 1? No. Week 2? No. In that window you're banking on the early clear meaning the melee's tomes can go to pieces that will be their actual BiS, not a weapon they're just going to throw away.

Actually this is the first tier any of our dps bought any tome weapons in any serious manner.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I came here to comment, what else do you want from me. I’m sorry I’m not well versed in the balance issues as most here but it’s not consequential to me unless your doing maybe 1-2 savage trials

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Then why care about what others care about so much that you have to tell them what they should care about or not?
If it's inconsequential and doesn't affect you, great. It does affect others.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Depends on when that group wants to clear. World race? Maybe. Week 1? No. Week 2? No. In that window you're banking on the early clear meaning the melee's tomes can go to pieces that will be their actual BiS, not a weapon they're just going to throw away.

Actually this is the first tier any of our dps bought any tome weapons in any serious manner.

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Oh yes, we weren't aiming for W1 during the first savage tier.
So the weapon went to PLD, we still cleared W2.

Once again my group was the exception, this time it was an actual decision.

Don't think gear funneling will matter at all. Because once people starting getting BiS, you'll be sure the clear time won't be 8:20 for the second boss of P8S so Summoners will have to delay their Phoenix and they're gonna lose and get behind pretty much everybody because Summoner is just toxic like that. Of course unless Spell Speed BiS is actually the answer o3o

But even that, melee don't really care about those details so while Summoner is effectivement a braindead job, they are so toxic to optimize.

But that sorta goes exactly to what I'm saying. Car 2 the boss goes invlunerable because melees can't keep uptime so they designed the mechanic to not single out melee DPS. They didn't design the second boss to make it comfy on Summoner. Even that, there is no positional on the last boss. There is 0 downtime on melee. All the mechanics always resolve to the boss hitbox.

It is what it is. Melee deal superior damage by a large margin which they used to have that because they'd deal with downtime. They no longer deal with downtime but keep the DPS superiority. That's awfully similar to Ranged physical who lost a ton of damage from losing Piercing Debuff and they were never compensated :)

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I came here to comment, what else do you want from me. I’m sorry I’m not well versed in the balance issues as most here but it’s not consequential to me unless your doing maybe 1-2 savage trials

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If you aren't knowledgeable on a subject, you shouldn't speak on it