Credit the people who made the tools you are looking at, Yoshida

1. Make a mod to improve the accessibility of a game you enjoy but the devs won't improve upon.
   
   
2. "But improving its accessibility is illegal unless the devs do it." (Insert such comments as "Vigilante scum," "Cheating trash," "Elitist filth," or the like.)
   
   
3. "Burn them! Their work is a corruption of the game! (But let's also take it for ourselves....)"

While I get the point of the thread, some of the posts come across as very rude and entitled.

I feel a lot of people take for granted the many ways in which the game is actually great. Regardless of how much room there is to improve, calling the devs lazy or deaf to feedback just seems either ignorant, disingenuous or purposefully malicious at the lack of a response to a specific personal gripe.

They thanked the community when someone found the 1.0 bug crashing the launcher upon EW's release, and they're now acknowledging that some of these mods may be good. I don't know if that's enough, but I know that angrily ranting on a forum isn't really going to achieve anything positive.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I have a feeling at some point in a live letter we're going to get an earful about the UI, so I wanted to get ahead of that and say this in particular:

[B]Credit the people who made the tools you're looking at..

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Credit them with a lawsuit!

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

Then don't? lmfao

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Thank you for the advice!!!

Discussion still going in huh? Personally while I agree my post about "feedback" wasn't exactly worded properly I still feel there is a large portion of weird concept that FFXIV team would "steal from mod creators". Considering it's very unlikely that they would be able to just take the Plug-in's code and copy paste it into the game (since if it was that easy Plug-ins would not need an intermediary tool like Dalamud and wouldn't break with any slight change). Ultimately I wouldn't be surprised if their looking at plugins would just end at seeing the end result and doing the rest in their own. I mean... I I code the game and put in Life and Resource bar should I now be obligated to credit whatever was the first game that did this as my inspiration? Or in case of this game should FFXIV credit Blizzard and whoever else made other MMOs they took inspiration and certain solutions from? Because they openly stated they did this and yet there's not a single spot in credits dedicated to them. Ultimately what's different with this course of action conpared to say a starting novelist that studies works of the past to see what works and what doesn't so he can include that in his own creation?

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

While I get the point of the thread, some of the posts come across as very rude and entitled.

I feel a lot of people take for granted the many ways in which the game is actually great. Regardless of how much room there is to improve, calling the devs lazy or deaf to feedback just seems either ignorant, disingenuous or purposefully malicious at the lack of a response to a specific personal gripe.

They thanked the community when someone found the 1.0 bug crashing the launcher upon EW's release, and they're now acknowledging that some of these mods may be good. I don't know if that's enough, but I know that angrily ranting on a forum isn't really going to achieve anything positive.

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How is it ignorant to call them out when they literally laugh over something that’s making their players understandably upset(hrothgar hairs). Like i’m sorry, but objectively the hrothgar hair situation is an example of pure laziness and lack of transparency. And also lies but the dev team lying isn’t anything new lmao. Instead of yoshi p going into detail figuring out healer woes, he simply tells them to f off and go play ultimate for engagement. There’s numerous examples of this so i think calling people ignorant for pointing these things out is well….ignorant lmao.

Imagine the firestorm that would follow after SE publicly credits mod creators. If you can't imagine it, then you just don't know society well enough and I would encourage one to venture deeper into knowing how people's mind work.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

While I get the point of the thread, some of the posts come across as very rude and entitled.

I feel a lot of people take for granted the many ways in which the game is actually great. Regardless of how much room there is to improve, calling the devs lazy or deaf to feedback just seems either ignorant, disingenuous or purposefully malicious at the lack of a response to a specific personal gripe.

They thanked the community when someone found the 1.0 bug crashing the launcher upon EW's release, and they're now acknowledging that some of these mods may be good. I don't know if that's enough, but I know that angrily ranting on a forum isn't really going to achieve anything positive.

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Don't get me wrong. They've done some great things - and also some not so great things. It's just when you've had years of feedback for certain things and nothing's come of it, it creates the idea that they are tone deaf to the topic and refuse to openly discuss it - which they should acknowledge. This isn't ignorance or malice or being disingenuous; it's criticism. And while I know people are not wont to criticize the developers, that criticism is also what can drive development and tell them to do better if they pride themselves(which I'm sure as hell they do pride themselves in creating this game). Also, if you're taking my opening post as an angry rant, perhaps you should put to blame the people who actually are using inflammatory language on the very first page. It seems to be a kicker to putting down all topics - one person comes in, becomes inflammatory and derails topic with expletives, then leaves. Easy way to kill a topic.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Imagine the firestorm that would follow after SE publicly credits mod creators. If you can't imagine it, then you just don't know society well enough and I would encourage one to venture deeper into knowing how people's mind work.

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I'm not saying put them in the Credits! All they need to do is openly acknowledge them. It can be as simple as doing it in a Live Stream. Acknowledge the teams who worked on said tools, while reminding them of the ToS. It's that simple. It would not be an open endorsement, but rather a reminder. Also them telling them to direct their UI Feedback to the User Interface Subforum would be best - yet if they ignore it for 6 months, then we've a problem.

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Originally Posted by hagare

another one huh
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-conte...lWT1qfkt17.gif

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Damn you called it. This is quite the show.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I'm not saying put them in the Credits! All they need to do is openly acknowledge them. It can be as simple as doing it in a Live Stream. Acknowledge the teams who worked on said tools, while reminding them of the ToS. It's that simple. It would not be an open endorsement, but rather a reminder. Also them telling them to direct their UI Feedback to the User Interface Subforum would be best - yet if they ignore it for 6 months, then we've a problem.

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The end result is unfortunately the same. Please tell me you're optimistically ignoring aftermath of such actions. No one in corporate, in their right of mind would ever open such a can of worms, much less imagine it for fun.

C'mon do I really have to explain how this would realistically go?

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

The end result is unfortunately the same. Please tell me you're optimistically ignoring aftermath of such actions. No one in corporate, in their right of mind would ever open such a can of worms, much less imagine it for fun.

C'mon do I really have to explain how this would realistically go?

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I'm not ignoring the aftermath. I'm aware of what would happen - lawsuits over copyright, IP, arguments...but do you think these people have the time and money to litigate against SE if they're playing here? Let alone, what if it's across the globe? How will you litigate against a company then? And on what basis in that region's law? If for some ungodly reason someone decides they're going after SE for Intellectual Property, they're going to have to make an air-tight case - which is already difficult given how the ToS is written against 3rd Party Add-ons. How would you make your opening argument be compelling while also dealing with what Yoshida has already written in an open letter to address 3rd Party Add-ons? It's a minefield that nobody wants to step in, Patty.

Well I think the thing to remember is it's very unlikely that SE is just going to take the code and implement it. Modders do not have to contend with making their code work with all other areas of the game. So most likely they are going to see the types of things that people are modding and work out ways to do that on their own and in ways that will work with all the moving pieces on both server and client side with the game's code. So I find it unlikely that they will emphasize specific modders since it seems more likely they will focus on the types of things being modded and there could be multiple modders doing that.

There are also concerns about publicly thanking those who broke your ToS and I find that also very unlikely.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How is it ignorant to call them out when they literally laugh over something that’s making their players understandably upset(hrothgar hairs)

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Ignorant as in... Yoshi has stated that they are aware of the backlash towards those hairstyles, and are looking into it.

Here's an excerpt of the full post:

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Originally, I had announced at the outset that we would be unable to add more hairstyles for them. However, we continued to receive comments asking for more Hrothgar hairstyles to be added somehow. In order to address this feedback, we went with a plan where we would maintain the shape of the head and have the ears “hidden” in the hair, which would allow us to implement new hairstyles in due time.

But as we’ve seen, there have indeed been many comments questioning the lack of ears…

This is something I’m currently torn over. If we were to maintain the style we went with in this update, we would still have to adjust hairstyles to match the shape of Hrothgar heads…

But if every hairstyle update is going to be met with large communities of players saying, “That’s not what we want,” then perhaps we can reconsider. Though it would mean new hairstyles would be added far less frequently, perhaps we could somehow create hairstyles dedicated to those head shapes. But I think that would lower the number of hairstyles we can implement…

It’s difficult to address, since Hrothgar was only made possible because we drew a clear line about this point back then. Honestly speaking, it’s very difficult to create hair in-game, as you might expect. As such, I’m torn over how we should proceed.

Having said that, I understand that players are asking for us to do something about it quickly, but it’s something that will take a long time to address. To this end, I’d very much appreciate it if you could share your feedback with us on the official forums. I’ll have the Community teams compile your feedback and provide a report.

But I’d like to reiterate, the current implementation of Hrothgar heads is only possible because we’re using some very unorthodox methods. Hrothgar are the way they are because we’d like for our fans of beast-like characters to enjoy them, but I would also like to emphasize that they are made in a completely unique way compared to the other races.

We’d like to continue doing our best to address your feedback, so please continue to let us know what you think.

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Now: Didn't you know (you were thus ignorant) and just assumed they didn't care? Or did you know and chose to ignore that the issue has been acknowledged by the team for the sake of your argument?

Either way, this is exactly what I meant with my original post.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Ignorant as in... Yoshi has stated that they are aware of the backlash towards those hairstyles, and are looking into it.

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Did you read your own quote? All I see is Yoshi-P not-so-subtly blaming the Hrothgar players for his own mistakes and being generally dismissive about it. There's also the fact that he didn't even care enough to make an offical letter about it like he did about issues that he actually cares about like housing, third party tools or people being angry about queue times.
We have every right to call them out about it.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I'm not ignoring the aftermath. I'm aware of what would happen - lawsuits over copyright, IP, arguments...but do you think these people have the time and money to litigate against SE if they're playing here? Let alone, what if it's across the globe? How will you litigate against a company then? And on what basis in that region's law? If for some ungodly reason someone decides they're going after SE for Intellectual Property, they're going to have to make an air-tight case - which is already difficult given how the ToS is written against 3rd Party Add-ons. How would you make your opening argument be compelling while also dealing with what Yoshida has already written in an open letter to address 3rd Party Add-ons? It's a minefield that nobody wants to step in, Patty.

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And that alone is still only a small piece of the firestorm pie. You want to know which is the biggest piece?

The credited creators themselves. Imagine for a minute, "Bob" has 2 UI mods under his belt: one lets the user see what kind of dmg they'll receive (physical or magical) and the other is a simple party icon changer. In the following year, SE implements only the former, credits Bob (personally or impersonally). You know what's the end result for Bob? He can still be banned for the other mod that wasn't implemented yet. That's the real circus. The credited mod creators would still be at risk of getting banned for a UI mod that could potentially be implemented at another time.

Not only it's patronizing but demoralizing as well. And that's just the big piece. Smaller pieces are basically anyone who was using Bob's first mod but got caught and punished, people who want to use other mods and fight (uselessly) against the ToS but now are even louder than this current fiasco, you also have unsuccessful litigators who've deluded themselves into thinking that being credited should also mean getting payed and at the bottom, the people who are adamantly against mods and now feel like the crediting now opens floodgates to a game being overfilled with addons (because that's how their mental gymnastics work). All this in the glorious social information age where it's plastered even worse and 1 in 4 media outlet will keep referencing DOTA as a thinking piece.

It might seem like the right and noble thing to credit UI mod creators, with or without them being notified that they would be but the ramifications are just not worth it.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Don't get me wrong. They've done some great things - and also some not so great things. It's just when you've had years of feedback for certain things and nothing's come of it, it creates the idea that they are tone deaf to the topic and refuse to openly discuss it - which they should acknowledge. This isn't ignorance or malice or being disingenuous; it's criticism. And while I know people are not wont to criticize the developers, that criticism is also what can drive development and tell them to do better if they pride themselves(which I'm sure as hell they do pride themselves in creating this game). Also, if you're taking my opening post as an angry rant, perhaps you should put to blame the people who actually are using inflammatory language on the very first page. It seems to be a kicker to putting down all topics - one person comes in, becomes inflammatory and derails topic with expletives, then leaves. Easy way to kill a topic.

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Yoshida mentioning they'll be looking into some of the most popular UI mods is already crediting the community for identifying where the UI is lacking, just how they thanked the community for identifying the 1.0 bug that was producing some of the 2002 errors with the launcher when Endwalker released.

Credit by name would only make sense if they were implementing the mods directly into the game, and they're not doing that. I'm not sure if that's what you meant with your post. Someone (not me) could also argue that they should instead permaban the mod creators for breaking TOS and making third party tools, which in theory they're in their right to do but they're not going to do that either. Instead they've recognized said mods as helpful. It's a compromise for both sides.

The more time passes, the more I feel the community is taking the devs and Yoshi for granted. They fixed housing while trying to tackle PvP cheating/toxicity, they're looking into Hrothgar hair, they're using mod ideas for the UI, and some will still act like nothing is being done and that the community is never heard.

Implementing features isn't like flipping a switch, and payed employees don't have the same workflow and the modding community. On a side note... I can't wait for FF XVI to be out, because there's no way developing XVI isn't having an impact on the development of XIV for Creative Business Unit III.

I don't think your original post was rude, and I was referring more to other comments on the thread, and I feel your frustration. I just think it's also fair to recognize where the team is doing right by us. It's a hard act to balance.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Did you read your own quote? All I see is Yoshi-P not-so-subtly blaming the Hrothgar players for his own mistakes and being generally dismissive about it. There's also the fact that he didn't even care enough to make an offical letter about it like he did about issues that he actually cares about like housing, third party tools or people being angry about queue times.
We have every right to call them out about it.

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He could have also ignored the feedback entirely, made no post at all anywhere and leave the hairstyles as they are forever.

I guess if nothing is ever done then I'll eat my words, but that's not the case at this time so I don't know what else to tell you. Keep calling them out if you want, but don't pretend like they're being deaf to the feedback either.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

He could have also ignored the feedback entirely, made no post at all anywhere and leave the hairstyles as they are forever.

I guess if nothing is ever done then I'll eat my words, but that's not the case at this time so I don't know what else to tell you. Keep calling them out if you want, but don't pretend like they're being deaf to the feedback either.

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But the nothing ever being done has already happened. Hrothgar players were promised race exclusive hairstyles. That was never done, they were lied to. The fact they LAUGHED at the pictures of the hairstyles tells people everything they need to know about these devs. They are being dead to feedback. You’ve been given numerous examples. Look at healers and his “go play ultimate if you want them to be engaging.” Please stop trying to defend them because it just makes you look bad when people give you numerous examples and you continue to deflect with “w-well they addressed it kind of in this.” No, they tried to blame the players, the same way they tried to blame players with the login queue errors on launch and it turns out it was their problem.