Console Players don't need Addons

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

What a disingenuous post, good god. The content is made to not require third party tools. The devs themselves clear them before releasing them. Console players are able to clear it just fine without these addons. Why the hell do you need them? You want to cheat because you don't want to put effort into the game but still want the prestige and rewards from that kind of content. If you could at least be honest about this I would have some semblence of respect for you guys. What I hate is how you gaslight about why you really want addons in the game. You just want to trivialize the content. You KNOW it is not necessary, but you don't want to put the effort into the game. Just fucking admit it and stop this fake victim complex and moral grandstanding.

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You do understand im a console player right?

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

I think you need a break from trying so hard to undermine your peers.

You too, Yukiko.

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You misinterpret my intent. If I smell BS, I will call it out. If two things aren't adding up, I will ask to be enlightened. Those in opposition of my views do very little to remedy either, and basically default to a comment such as this one. I don't need to exert effort to undermine my peers if people so easily contradict themselves.

Console players on massive copium thinking SE will actually stop 3rd party addons.

Here’s reality: it’s going to continue and there’s nothing you can do to stop it.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

So why do you?

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Let us know when you actually do ex, savage, ultimate content. Until then your opinion isn't worth much.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Console players on massive copium thinking SE will actually stop 3rd party addons.

Here’s reality: it’s going to continue and there’s nothing you can do to stop it.

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My copium is thinking SE will make healers a balance tool set unlikely the current press L2+X for 90%+ of the fight. Is there a rehab for that? Or am i stuck like the OP?

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Originally Posted by QooEr

youre being intellecutally dishonest. addons go from things as harmless as "change the bgm" to actual cheating and automation. use some critical thinking for once and stop clumping them together and pretending people are all pining for the cheating ones.

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Remember the first words here. I am going to bring them back around. It is quite ironic, and even a bit humorous that you are telling me to use critical thinking and stop lumping everyone together, when I have yet to accuse anyone of cheating. I, like several other posters have asked why users of third party tools and addons need them. From what I can tell, these are coming from mostly console users who do not have access to these tools. Furthermore it also isn't this group of people who are stating that these tools put them at a disadvantage. How could we possibly know? We are deliberately told that we are placed at a disadvantage, and guess who says this? It's the third party tool users.

So with what you said to me earlier. Who exactly is being intellectually dishonest? It sure in hell isn't me.

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theres plugins that do help and make things "easier" but not by a substantial margin. theres one addon out there that makes battle countdowns show for every second instead of just the last 5. it makes it "easier" in that someone doesnt have to count in their heads to use sharpcast or whatever at -12 seconds, but do you seriously think theyre unable to do that themselves? moreover do you seriously think that being able to use sharpcast at exactly -12 is going to make someone suddenly able to clear savages and ultimates with no practice? youre just arguing in bad faith at that point.

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I agree, that would be arguing in bad faith; if any of this was my argument. You might want to reread this. You quite literally just told me that addons make things easier, how they do so, and then proceed to state that I'm claiming players are clearing savage and ultimate without practice. Not much else to say about that.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Thank you for agreeing with my point, your post could've stopped right here.

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Should've just expected you to be a troll instead of someone looking to have a serious conversation, honestly.

But it's safe to say that without any of these add-ons in the first place, SE probably wouldn't even be looking at improvements to the UI for everyone. Even if people don't use add-ons, I've seen quite a few (including console players) rely on others for things like DPS meters or other features they don't inherently have access to, especially over voice chat. You know, the other third party thing people often use to clear anything.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Let us know when you actually do ex, savage, ultimate content. Until then your opinion isn't worth much.

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uh hi! I have a couple of friends in our savage static who play on console and we managed to clear hard content no problem, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

uh hi! I have a couple of friends in our savage static who play on console and we managed to clear hard content no problem, thank you very much.

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Your friends in your static are fine-- the OP has already admitted that they don't do ex, savage, ultimate, ect content in another thread because it doesn't interest them. :P

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Originally Posted by Padudu

Your friends in your static are fine-- the OP has already admitted that they don't do ex, savage, ultimate, ect content in another thread because it doesn't interest them. :P

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I know, I'm just saying. Lets just not generalize people here in order to better your arguments.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I know, I'm just saying. Lets just not generalize people here in order to better your arguments.

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He's not generalizing. He's calling the OP out for not doing the content and yet criticizing raiders for things they have no experience in.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I agree, that would be arguing in bad faith; if any of this was my argument. You might want to reread this. You quite literally just told me that addons make things easier, how they do so, and then proceed to state that I'm claiming players are clearing savage and ultimate without practice. Not much else to say about that.

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ok then, i apologize. yes those things make things easier. but then we're talking about a different kind of difficulty here. what differentiates QoL from gameplay difficulty?

if you analyze the sliding scale of difficulty in ffxiv encounters, youll find out what entails the intended difficulty vs just fighting bad design choices. you start having to memorize boss attack patterns, pay attention to cast bars, needing to execute rotations properly to meet dps checks, failing mechanics becomes more punishing (vuln up -> oneshot -> insta wipe), etc. there are many things that become harder as a design choice. however none of those are even remotely related to the woes that people who use these addons want to address (except i guess maybe the CD tracking one?? which again, people still can do using vanilla xiv with an excel spreadsheet. is it hypocritical to use excel to plan mitigation too?)

the game doesnt really ask you to pay attention to other people's buff timers. the game is already giving you a battle log that tells you pretty much why you die. the game already has a countdown and someone can make a macro that sends every second in chat. someone who wants a bigger challenge from the game, and thus doing ultimate content, can still without any contradiction on their part want to just not fight the game's ui, because the difficulty of encounters in ffxiv revolves around pattern recognition and execution of mechanics + rotations, not around looking at buffs or counting seconds mentally during a pre-pull countdown. theres nothing ironic in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You misinterpret my intent. If I smell BS, I will call it out. If two things aren't adding up, I will ask to be enlightened. Those in opposition of my views do very little to remedy either, and basically default to a comment such as this one. I don't need to exert effort to undermine my peers if people so easily contradict themselves.

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I apologize for misinterpreting, then, but you do come off in such a way to me. The thing is, I'm not seeing any contradictions present here; you raised issue with the other healers, which was fixated on a very small part of a much larger and much more complicated issue, and you seem to be voluntarily refusing to acknowledge that, at least within these forums, the healer community seems to be coming together behind that one concept with different, smaller concepts as potential things that can be utilized to alleviate the issue. I would argue that they've moved on from focusing on that small facet to what seems to be the real issue and you're refusing to move past it because of seemingly just wanting to put them down for the one small facet potentially not being utilized to a certain standard. I would further argue that you'd be better off spending your time to foster understanding of that broader concept, and grow with it, if you do think there is more to it than the one smaller facet. Continuing to focus so hard on the difficulty when that is no longer the actual issue, when you are making yourself out to not need enlightenment, is what makes me believe that you are actively trying to undermine your peers.

Either way, it's not a contradiction that healers are looking for more engagement, and seek their individually-determined levels of engagement from multiple sources, even if those sources do include add-ons or mods. Difficulty can certainly be a source, but it is not the only source, nor do mods or add-ons necessarily detract from engagement, even from difficulty levels, if they're being used at all.

911 dispatcher, I'd like to report filthy degenerate cheaters in a game called Final Fantasy 14. You won't believe these people, placing furniture in their houses without spending hours lofting it. Some of them even prevent the chat window from autoscrolling when they move the window up to view information that went out of view, the NERVE! Can you imagine, some of them even display their desynth level on the tooltip when looking at a desynthesizable item instead of having to right click on it. Revolting, right? Thank god I would never do anything so depraved. What kind of person would do that? I'm SO much better than anyone who would dare make intelligent design updates to an already perfect game. If Yoshi didn't put it in the game, it's heresy. What sort of disgusting person would want anything like that?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You don't have to agree with a stance, but you can attempt to understand it.

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It's going to be difficult to get through to the OP with that logic. He goes from thread to thread on these forums, trying to stamp out any positive views towards addons.

With the posts you make, you just seem like you're a little puff of anger always mad at something. Makes it hard to take anything you say seriously; you're just mad all the time.
/shrug

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Originally Posted by Vav2021

Console players also hardly ever talk. So why do we need a chat box?

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I’m on a PS5 and I got a keyboard for chatting after an hour or so of play when I first started playing. F typing on a controller. :D

lol the person who made this post has such a bad case of crab mentality.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Not an argument.

They designed the content to be cleared without the need for third party tools. Console players do not have access to these tools so they need to be able to clear without them. And they do. So why do PC players need them?

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It's like you purposely ignoring people's explanation of "want vs need".

If you really want to get technical, console players also doesn't need discord, doesn't need ff logs, doesn't need xivanalysis. PF people can clear content without such things, so if some consoles players depend on one of them, they're cheaters right?

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

So why do you?

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no, they need frame rate XD

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

It's because PC players, are used to using other 3RD party programs, mods and addons in the games they play.

It's a feeling that propels them to act as if, they are some how entitled to their use of them, because of whatever reasons they make use of, to mask their own inability to play a game w/o them.

It's akin to, athletes using synthetic injections and steroids to have an advantage over those who don't, they require these tools to make of for what they're lacking.

Don't know your rotation? Download an Addon.
Don't know where not to stand during any given fight? Download an Addon.
Don't like not know how your DPS stacks up in the instance, while also wanting to know others stats? Download an Addon.

There is an endless cycle of Addons to take pretty much any guess work, out of any part of the game, including crafting, market board selling, economy shifting ect.

If you're not confident enough in yourself to clear certain content w/o the use of Addons, then look at yourself and how to improve, over needing 3rd party help to bridge the gap between player skill and demanding content.

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Have always played on PC. Never installed any mod into game.

Don't know rotation. Learn it by playing game.
Don't know where to stand for mechanics during fight. Learn it by playing game.
Want to know how your DPS compares to other party members. Why does it matter as long as the content is cleared. As a DPS you can generally tell where you stand by your rank on the enmity list. There isn't a need for exact numbers during the fight. I generally see parsers more often used by people trying to e-peen or using it to berate players that are below them on the parse.

Does anyone need chat bubbles to play? No. Does anyone need big numbers in front of their skill to better visualize it? No. Does anyone need to see shields on top of health bars? No. Does anyone living outside of US/Europe needs XIVAlexander to play? No.

But all of these things makes the gameplay more comfortable. Chat bubbles makes talking to people in crowded areas easier, big numbers in front of skills makes visualizing when a skill is about to go off CD easier and has been implemented by games a decade older than FFXIV, shields on top of health bars simply makes the information more comfortable to look at in the middle of a fight and finally XIVAlexander makes the game actually playable on countries that Squenix hasn't bothered to add servers to. I mean, you play any job, especially casters or jobs that requires lot's of double weaving at 250+ms and tell me how good of an experience you're having.

But here's the worst part, all of these could be added, yet from the pattern I am seeing here, Squenix is quite masterful at creating excuses to not implement QoL stuff unless pressured. If independent modders can do that, surely a multi-billion company can as well.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Have always played on PC. Never installed any mod into game.

Don't know rotation. Learn it by playing game.
Don't know where to stand for mechanics during fight. Learn it by playing game.
Want to know how your DPS compares to other party members. Why does it matter as long as the content is cleared. As a DPS you can generally tell where you stand by your rank on the enmity list. There isn't a need for exact numbers during the fight. I generally see parsers more often used by people trying to e-peen or using it to berate players that are below them on the parse.

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If you don't do high-level content just say so fam.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Want to know how your DPS compares to other party members. Why does it matter as long as the content is cleared. As a DPS you can generally tell where you stand by your rank on the enmity list.

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Things like ACT are most often used for self improvement whether folks want to believe it or not. The enmity list doesn't count - that really depends on who starts attacking first compared to others and if you die or not - hard to tell real damage comparable to others using that list. It's....meh for the most part. You can somewhat tell, but I still wouldn't use that to compare if you're doing good damage to others, especially since healing puts you up there on the list as well.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

There isn't a need for exact numbers during the fight.

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How does one say they don't do high end content without saying they don't do high end content.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

How does one say they don't do high end content without saying they don't do high end content.

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The difference between a wipe and a clear can be about 200 DPS in some cases.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

They provide more than QoL elements to the gameplay. They can and do give distinctive advantages over console players.

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Please enlighten me on how GShade, BDTH, or BMP give "distinctive advantages" over console players. Go on, I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

A poster here already admitted to me that healers can see the mitigation and ogcd heal cooldowns of their teammates. That is one hell of an advantage if you ask me.

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No more so than calling out your cooldowns in chat, or raiding in the same room as your co-healer so you can glance over at their screen and see what's on cooldown, or employing a "ninth" to watch cooldowns and do call-outs, or...

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I am trying to understand it myself. My previous question of why would a player seeking more difficult content support and use addon tools not supported by the dev team that makes the content less so got no response.

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Why would a player seeking more difficult content do things like look at guides, or use meta comps, or use Discord instead of text chat, or run with gear above minimum item level, or join a static, when it would be far more difficult to do blind min-ilvl PuG runs with randoms? If you don't intentionally gimp your performance, can you really honestly say you're pursuing difficult content? /s

There are legitimate arguments against add-ons that expose information you could not legitimately get (untelegraphed AoEs), or that automate the game beyond what would be reasonable to compensate for a disability (automatic marker placement during combat). This ain't one of them. In fact, it's just a thinly-veiled Appeal To Motive against people you disagree with.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Seems to me players care more about the credibility than the difficulty. Thoughts?

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I take it back, it's not veiled at all.
I think you need to drop the passive-aggressive act and get more fiber in your diet.

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Originally Posted by Juyira

Even if it's not a need, there's so many things that would benefit literally everyone playing the game. A small QoL update like adding timers to the buffs and such displayed on the party list alone would help tremendously, for example. Things like chat bubbles would be great for RPers and people taking funny screenshots, and wouldn't bother anyone especially if there were an option to toggle them on and off. Being able to change the colors of various markers such as AOE puddles would help a lot on troublesome visual fights like P3S.

A lot of small things can go a long way. And if you don't want them, you don't have to use them. But there's always benefits to more options, accessibility, etc.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Thank you for agreeing with my point, your post could've stopped right here.

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We also don't "need" graphics quality or frame rates above what the PS3 once gave, and yet...

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

The difference between a wipe and a clear can be about 200 DPS in some cases.

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To be fair I generally don't look at my parser anymore and stopped paying attention to my damage. I just know what to do now.

But that's only after a long period of actually improving at the game with the aid of parsers and using tools like xivanalysis to evaluate what I can do better.

So ironically it's the high-end players who need parsers less than the casual players IMHO.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

To be fair I generally don't look at my parser anymore and stopped paying attention to my damage. I just know what to do now.

But that's only after a long period of actually improving at the game with the aid of parsers and using tools like xivanalysis to evaluate what I can do better.

So ironically it's the high-end players who need parsers less than the casual players IMHO.

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They aren’t only about your specific numbers. The most important part of a parser, to me, is the raid damage. If people fear being called out for being a shitter then get better or get out of the way.

Nobody needs addons.

You don't also really need Netflix or Spotify...

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

I generally see parsers more often used by people trying to e-peen or using it to berate players that are below them on the parse.

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Maybe because the vast number of people who are using them are not berating and harassing people? people aren't going to bring up parsing even in a neutral or positive context because they know malding carebears exist who would report them.

For the accessibility options they provide making doing colour based mechanics a less miserable experience. Could I clear without them? Yes. Would it be a less enjoyable experience? Also yes


Do you need a phone? Do you need a computer? Do you need FFXIV? No you don’t just because something is not 100% needed does not mean people shouldn’t have it

I love it when people who don't do that content and are definitely not in a place where they can criticize someone else's gameplay make these statements.

You don't need 3rd party tools on your console? Have you ever actually looked up a rotation for your job? Have you ever looked up what substats you should use, what GCD you need to run on and what gear pieces you should go for?

Where do you think that information comes from?


Ah yes, "learn your rotation by playing the game", because that totally seems to work for all the people repeating that argument. No, freestyling on samurai will certainly not work if you want to do anything higher than maybe extremes.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Have always played on PC. Never installed any mod into game.

Don't know rotation. Learn it by playing game.
Don't know where to stand for mechanics during fight. Learn it by playing game.
Want to know how your DPS compares to other party members. Why does it matter as long as the content is cleared. As a DPS you can generally tell where you stand by your rank on the enmity list. There isn't a need for exact numbers during the fight. I generally see parsers more often used by people trying to e-peen or using it to berate players that are below them on the parse.

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The thing is, this only mostly applies to lower end contents. The gap between low end to high end can be seen as ”Nothing really matters.” then flips abruptly into ”Every little thing matters.”, there is no in-between.

In the latter, there is something inherently wrong when a red job is only contributing 10% higher total damage than me, the green job.

Toxic individuals do not need parsers to berate another players. I have seen—albeit as rare as parsers malding—some funny individual that berates a dps for being consistently lower than a stance-less tank in enmity order. Should we take away enmity order list from the game, too?

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Have always played on PC. Never installed any mod into game.

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Okay, and good for you, I guess? With all due respect, I don’t think anyone really cares what you are doing or not doing on your own PC.

I really don’t understand why some people are so concerned about what other people do on their own computers while they’re playing a video game. Especially these people that criticize raiders for using third-party apps while not touching anything harder than a 24-man themselves. Respectfully, this is affecting content that you are not participating in and/or have zero interest in participating in. So why do you care so much? To the point that some are defending and encouraging witch hunts against streamers. GCBTW, indeed.

Add-ons are not required to clear Savage or Ultimate. The streamers that use them absolutely do not need them, and it’s hilarious that people who have never stepped into an Extreme are questioning their skill levels. Some add-ons are QoL features that should honestly exist in this game—like the ReShade filter that made P3S not a physical assault on one’s eyeballs.

Frankly, I can’t even be bothered to keep up with the names of streamers, much less what and which add-ons they use. The only ones that I agree are pushing it are ones that hack invisible AOE indicators into the game. But others I don’t care enough to sit around and mass report them on some sort of crusade like what is happening now. What they do doesn’t affect me in any way.

It would be nice if this kind of effort could be put into things like PvP hackers/botters, wintraders, and crafting/gathering bots. But I guess since they aren’t toxic elitist raiders, it’s different. I feel like there is a horrible double standard at play here sometimes, and it honestly makes me not even want to take part in this community anymore. I barely talk in-game anymore as it is; this kind of behavior of sanctioning witch-hunts because “third-party programs bad heehee let’s mass report streamers just because we can” just makes me embarrassed to be a part of the FFXIV community. The amount of pettiness involved in this entire thing is just mind-boggling.

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Don't know rotation. Learn it by playing game.

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This game doesn’t teach you your rotation. Never has. You have to look up rotational guides on third-party sites that are formulated via third-party programs.

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Want to know how your DPS compares to other party members. Why does it matter as long as the content is cleared. As a DPS you can generally tell where you stand by your rank on the enmity list. There isn't a need for exact numbers during the fight. I generally see parsers more often used by people trying to e-peen or using it to berate players that are below them on the parse.

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This argument fails to hold up when Extremes, Savages, and Ultimates have hard enrages that bank on doing X amount of damage. Damage absolutely does matter—and no matter how much you want to say “it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter”, it does. Heck, it is the most important aspect of this game at this point when it comes to battle content, since everything else has been removed: healing requirements are laughable in all pieces of content at all levels, enmity management doesn’t exist anymore, resource management is slowly being deleted from the game, crowd control is virtually non-existent in PvE content. Even punishments for failed mechanics are non-existent until you get into Savage and Ultimate. And the former can still be struggle bus’d/limped through with a decent group.

It is funny to still see people insisting the enmity meter on the party list gives you any inkling of your overall contribution to a party, or is any substitute for an actual damage meter that gives you a number. I’m number one in enmity during a 24-man on WHM. Does that mean I’m also top DPS? In the average instance, I would wager not. If I actually am, then there are a lot more issues at play going on. Overhealing and healing in general contributes to enmity—you cannot use enmity as a measure of damage dealt when something like that or having tank stance enabled affects it.

It is an anecdote, but I have played this game for over six years. In all my time playing, I have seen one person “berate” another over damage a handful of times. It is certainly not a common practice; not in the way the anti-parser crowd always makes it out to be. Most of the time when people are berating, it’s not over damage and more so mechanic consistency.

Ironically, I’ve been on the receiving end of someone berating my damage when I was doing double theirs with Brink of Death. I was a BRD and they were a SAM—the content was Tsukuyomi EX when it first released. But I was the one accused of being the reason we hit enrage. Not the two melee DPS that I was massively out-damaging while having a 50% damage penalty.

And this isn’t to say I was even the one logging anything. Another individual in the group was and saw that. Of course, I couldn’t be defended out loud. Because even if that was mentioned in defense of me saying I wasn’t the issue, that would still be someone admitting to using a third-party tool. And this community is nothing if not petty, and would have reported on sight even if the information was delivered purely as a statement of fact and not in a toxic way. Sucks that you can’t even use it “for good” or to defend yourself when someone makes ignorant statements like the individuals in that party. I’ll never forget it due to the sheer irony of it.



People wield their ignorance as a weapon, and this thread is the epitome of this.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

What if

What if

They don't want you to have that information and have designed encounters entirely around you not having said information?

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bruh the combat log.
im dying.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This argument fails to hold up when Extremes, Savages, and Ultimates have hard enrages that bank on doing X amount of damage. Damage absolutely does matter—and no matter how much you want to say “it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter”, it does. Heck, it is the most important aspect of this game at this point, since everything else has been removed: healing requirements are laughable in all pieces of content at all levels, enmity management doesn’t exist anymore, resource management is slowly being deleted from the game, crowd control is virtually non-existent in PvE content.

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The argument doesn't just fall apart in extremes and up.

What if you're playing a tank? You'll always be either 1 or 2 in the enmity list and vastly ahead of everyone else, it doesn't tell you anything since they reworked tank stances.
What if everyone in your party is terrible? Being the 3rd highest in the enmity list doesn't mean your dps is good, it just means it's not quite as terrible as everyone else's.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Nobody needs addons.

You don't also really need Netflix or Spotify...

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How am i supposed to chill without netflix? I'll end up on a murder spree.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

So why do you?

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Its the only way PC can clear content thats why. Its obvious at this point.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Have always played on PC. Never installed any mod into game.

Don't know rotation. Learn it by playing game.

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This requires that the game give sufficient feedback to tell the difference between doing something properly or not.

At present, the only means to that is specifically SSS, because all else is a team environment in which you cannot singularly determine your contribution to any meaningful degree. That's not because Enmity is insufficient to tell what portion you do, mind you, but because casual fights themselves have literally no fail conditions beyond not every player dying, making even a rotation of solely auto-attacks technically sufficient.

Just "playing the game" can only teach you to the degree that not knowing how to play the game would punish you.