Third party tools are a game design failing in a multi-platform game

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Why did you bring CS into this? To fit what narrative? What does wallhack in CS have anything to do with UI tweaks for QoL in 14?

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Like the ones that actually added AoE markers to enemy attacks that were previously unannounced. It's only UI tweak right?

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Like the ones that actually added AoE markers to enemy attacks that were previously unannounced. It's only UI tweak right?

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But how does it have anything to do with what I said?

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

But how does it have anything to do with what I said?

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If you can't win using rational argument, the next best step is to derail the thread. :-)

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Like the ones that actually added AoE markers to enemy attacks that were previously unannounced. It's only UI tweak right?

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Why are you using a cheat as an example of a QoL? This is just bad faith, and you know it.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

But how does it have anything to do with what I said?

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You asked how is wallhack from CS relevant when it comes to UI mods in FFXIV. I asked if you also include the mods that show up things we weren't supposed to see like certain AoEs of bosses. Because to me both CS wallhack and this fall under the same category.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Why are you using a cheat as an example of a QoL? This is just bad faith, and you know it.

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Why do you only use simple QoL as example of plugins? Seeing other party members cooldowns also falls under the same category and yet posters don't see it as anything other than QoL.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Why do you only use simple QoL as example of plugins? Seeing other party members cooldowns also falls under the same category and yet posters don't see it as anything other than QoL.

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This is ridiculously disingenuous. Nobody is trying to say that cheat plugins don't exist, so stop using that as an argument, it's 100% in bad faith and we already know. You're not contributing anything to the discussion, because we already all agree that cheat plugin users should be banned.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

You asked how is wallhack from CS relevant when it comes to UI mods in FFXIV. I asked if you also include the mods that show up things we weren't supposed to see like certain AoEs of bosses. Because to me both CS wallhack and this fall under the same category.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Why did you bring CS into this? To fit what narrative? What does wallhack in CS have anything to do with UI tweaks for QoL in 14?

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HOW?? Where??
I dun understan

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

A parser isnt QOL at all..its a tool misused and abused to berate, harass and discriminate against players. Personally Id like to see parsers under a blanket ban. You dont need them to run content and people clear content w/out them easily.

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This is such a bad-faith argument, the vast majority of people use it for self-improvement as a individual/group. Is it strictly needed? no, but it saves a lot of time progging when you can find out what you're doing wrong.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Why do you only use simple QoL as example of plugins? Seeing other party members cooldowns also falls under the same category and yet posters don't see it as anything other than QoL.

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Do you only understand things in binary? I'm not advocating for actual cheats to be used, things that deliberately affect others' experiences, things that deliberately alter the fundamental design philosophy of an encounter, automation of a character etc... I am advocating for plug-ins that are, otherwise, completely harmless and offer things like: being able to see your own CD timers/buff timers/have access to better color filter options/being able to choose whatever track you want to listen to/being able to use ACT etc...

Or do you see something as innocuous as choosing a song the same as fundamentally breaking a fight's core design philosophy?

Is nuance truly so dead? Even when it's hardly even that with such a leap?

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Why do you only use simple QoL as example of plugins? Seeing other party members cooldowns also falls under the same category and yet posters don't see it as anything other than QoL.

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There exists a "grey area" in most instances where you have people that could argue and disagree about specific cases. Everyone "for" UI updates don't have to agree on them.

In general, I think that if you "paused" the game and could take as much time as you wanted to view information, making it easier to view that information is not "cheating."

For example, increasing the size of the cooldown numbers isn't cheating because it's not giving you information that you don't already have. Parsers are not cheating because you can technically just add up all of the numbers you see. Being able to see time left on buffs is not cheating because you can see that information if you were to target the person.

Seeing other players' cooldowns IS cheating (IMO) though because you can't generally see that. You could argue that you'd be able to scroll up in the battle log, see when the last time it was used was and "count" time from there, and I'm not even sure I have a valid response for that, but I still think it's cheating. Being able to see untelegraphed AEs IS cheating.


Your wall hack example (that came out of nowhere) is obviously a cheat because it belongs in the "Information you normally wouldn't have" category.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Do you only understand things in binary? I'm not advocating for actual cheats to be used, things that deliberately affect others' experiences, things that deliberately alter the fundamental design philosophy of an encounter, automation of a character etc... I am advocating for plug-ins that are, otherwise, completely harmless and offer things like: being able to see your own CD timers/buff timers/have access to better color filter options/being able to choose whatever track you want to listen to/being able to use ACT etc...

Or do you see something as innocuous as choosing a song the same as fundamentally breaking a fight's core design philosophy?

Is nuance truly so dead? Even when it's hardly even that with such a leap?

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ACT in itself isn't seen as QoL but as a tool. Tool that by high end raiders on PC scene is nowadays seen as mandatory as it gives you insight you'd normally not have without extra work. Tool that ends up speeding progression as it allows to pinpoint issues much more reliably than you'd ever could without it. Same tool that basically eliminated console players from World First Race which frankly prompted YoshiP to once again remind us that plug-ins and add-ons are against ToS.

I won't say I'm against all plug-ins. I'd be a hypocrite if I did. Personally I'd prefer nothing more than just return to the blissful "don't tell, don't show" status quo. Ultimately we're not going to get anything better than that. With plug-ins clocking at close to thousands and the game being cross platform there's no way SE will ever create a curated list of which are good and harmless, and which are basically cheats. Putting aside that it would basically be an official statement that console version is inferior, (yet costs the same and pays same amount for subscription) it would also require to keep all the plug-ins under constant watch as they change. Some of approved could gain undesired functions while some blacklisted might lose ones that made them bad.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Same tool that basically eliminated console players from World First Race

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eh, only if it was a full console team, you just need 1 person on PC.

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Originally Posted by Mosha

eh, only if it was a full console team, you just need 1 person on PC.

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So basically majority of JP as their PC market isn't doing too hot.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

So basically majority of JP as their PC market isn't doing too hot.

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Pretty sure a lot of high-end JP raiders also play on PC.
just because the market as a whole isn't doing good doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of people on PC in JP, it isn't the most challenging game to run after all.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

ACT in itself isn't seen as QoL but as a tool. Tool that by high end raiders on PC scene is nowadays seen as mandatory as it gives you insight you'd normally not have without extra work. Tool that ends up speeding progression as it allows to pinpoint issues much more reliably than you'd ever could without it. Same tool that basically eliminated console players from World First Race which frankly prompted YoshiP to once again remind us that plug-ins and add-ons are against ToS.

I won't say I'm against all plug-ins. I'd be a hypocrite if I did. Personally I'd prefer nothing more than just return to the blissful "don't tell, don't show" status quo. Ultimately we're not going to get anything better than that. With plug-ins clocking at close to thousands and the game being cross platform there's no way SE will ever create a curated list of which are good and harmless, and which are basically cheats. Putting aside that it would basically be an official statement that console version is inferior, (yet costs the same and pays same amount for subscription) it would also require to keep all the plug-ins under constant watch as they change. Some of approved could gain undesired functions while some blacklisted might lose ones that made them bad.

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Console players can participate in the World Race just fine, but generally people who are that competitive and gung-ho about wanting to be in that incredible minority of people would generally make sure they had whatever they could at their disposal to make success as likely as possible (which also means, better hardware). And if a console player is in the race, there will probably be people in their raid who are using ACT who will inform them of any pertinent pieces of information. Since it's a team. And players talk to each other. Console players aren't anymore eliminated from participating in that race than controller players are, which is to say: they can participate (and, if they're a good enough player a part of a solid enough team, win). There just tends to be a thing when it comes to competitions and competitive people with means, where they will purchase higher quality equipment for the express purpose of tilting odds in their favor further.

Even so, is the unofficial world race such a sacred thing that it's worth ruining everyone else's experiences because of the perceived possibility that of the 100~ odd people in that race, a handful of them don't have access to... ACT on their screen?

I play the game in a way I'm more happy with without cheating. I don't give a damn about consoles, there is a reason why so many opts to spend extra on PC

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Even so, is the unofficial world race such a sacred thing that it's worth ruining everyone else's experiences because of the perceived possibility that of the 100~ odd people in that race, a handful of them don't have access to... ACT on their screen?

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I'd say so? MMO community always seemed to keep those that reach those heights in high regard. They're often at the forefront when they reach their goal and seen as an example. It apparently is prestigious enough that they're willing to use technically bannable tool to measure their progress.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

God Kefka (Trine), Gaia Pt2 (Hourglass), Zodiark (Snakes).

Can you provide relevant examples to FFXIV and not CS:GO?

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We played with my color blind friend Kefka and had no issues at all, but I will not go there because I know there are different kinds of color blind and some people may have issues to see the "yellow on yellow" phase, while other color blind depending on their own issue may have no problem with it. The clocks have different picture on them, as far as I am aware how colorblind works, you should be able to see the picture atleast on the red clocks. I would say it is more likely the community is not used to use the color blind hints that really generate issues because while we were aware of our friend in the static, when we played in some random groups, they were pretty unprepared to not use "purple, red, yellow and etc" for feedback.

EDIT: Zodiark was just box, square, circle, if I understand the mechanic you are refering to.

I gave example with CS go because I don't want to write the name of the specific mod used by at least one of the suspended FF players. But lets say that the entire World First group on the last ultimate used UI addons, but only the red mage was banned, who was using addon revealing information invisible for players without addons. Bengal or whatever his name was, who got suspended too, had the same addon, I didn't checked the guy from Japan, but I am 95% sure he was using it too. It was visible visual feedback helping with mobility that is hidden by default and players should train a lot to perfect it.

I can't believe that people genuinely don't want to acknowledge that there is a difference between Quality of Life and cheating.

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Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik

I play the game in a way I'm more happy with without cheating. I don't give a damn about consoles, there is a reason why so many opts to spend extra on PC

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Except that's not the business choice Square Enix have made. I don't think the game is PC-first or console-first but there's a massive player base on both platforms and I'd assume it's probably a 50-50 split between them. There's a duty on SE to ensure they're designing a product that's fit for both audiences and is equal between both audiences. If there wasn't cross-platform multiplayer and it was two separate player bases, this wouldn't be a discussion at all, but because everyone plays together, it has to be equal.

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Originally Posted by Johners

Except that's not the business choice Square Enix have made. I don't think the game is PC-first or console-first but there's a massive player base on both platforms and I'd assume it's probably a 50-50 split between them. There's a duty on SE to ensure they're designing a product that's fit for both audiences and is equal between both audiences. If there wasn't cross-platform multiplayer and it was two separate player bases, this wouldn't be a discussion at all, but because everyone plays together, it has to be equal.

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Don't care. PC allows you to do many things console can't, either spend the money or live with console limitations, it's cold hard fact and what console centric japanese says doesn't affect that.

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Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik

Don't care. PC allows you to do many things console can't, either spend the money or live with console limitations, it's cold hard fact and what console centric japanese says doesn't affect that.

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For cross-platform games, individual platform "advantages" should be superficial; Better graphics, better refresh rate, better resolution? Sure. But playing on PC shouldn't allow for better player performance. "If you want to be able to play better you should spend money on a PC!" is a ridiculous statement.

How can PC and Console even be equal, its not possible the interface itself is already different, the input devices are different. Someone playing on mouse and keyboard vs controller already has a very different game experience.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

How can PC and Console even be equal, its not possible the interface itself is already different, the input devices are different. Someone playing on mouse and keyboard vs controller already has a very different game experience.

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You do realize you can do either methods on both platforms right?

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

How can PC and Console even be equal, its not possible the interface itself is already different, the input devices are different. Someone playing on mouse and keyboard vs controller already has a very different game experience.

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PC can use controllers and consoles can use keyboard/mouse. Those differences are a choice that the player makes, they're not locked out of the other because of the platform they're playing on. Also, both are on a fairly level playing field regardless of what they pick. It's not a shooter where kbm is twice as good.

I'm not sure what you mean by the interface being different, I can assure you that it's functionally the same.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

ACT in itself isn't seen as QoL but as a tool. Tool that by high end raiders on PC scene is nowadays seen as mandatory as it gives you insight you'd normally not have without extra work. Tool that ends up speeding progression as it allows to pinpoint issues much more reliably than you'd ever could without it. Same tool that basically eliminated console players from World First Race which frankly prompted YoshiP to once again remind us that plug-ins and add-ons are against ToS.

I won't say I'm against all plug-ins. I'd be a hypocrite if I did. Personally I'd prefer nothing more than just return to the blissful "don't tell, don't show" status quo. Ultimately we're not going to get anything better than that. With plug-ins clocking at close to thousands and the game being cross platform there's no way SE will ever create a curated list of which are good and harmless, and which are basically cheats. Putting aside that it would basically be an official statement that console version is inferior, (yet costs the same and pays same amount for subscription) it would also require to keep all the plug-ins under constant watch as they change. Some of approved could gain undesired functions while some blacklisted might lose ones that made them bad.

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ACT is more trouble than its worth, honestly. It's been the source of much grief. I've dealt with it firsthand.

I started in '19 and my first current tier EX trial venture was Hades. I was in a learning party and this white mage was being very rude and harassing me, saying it was better just to leave me down. The group lead eventually dropped them for this behavior. They were clearly parsing but obviously didn't want to say so. They could have made a suggestion about my materia melds or something (which ended up being part of the problem). They chose to be an asshole. Following this, I started using Stone Sky Sea to gauge my performance. I adjusted and improved. Perhaps this feature could use a slight tweak to maybe give more info, but it seems a great way to gauge whether or not you know your own rotation and have the right gear.

When getting into BLU Morbol content, you really didn't need DPS meters. Any problems were immediately visible with the one person whose HP didn't line up with everyone else.

Generally speaking, there are sufficient cues in a fight to tell where things need improving. Usually, it's the fact that someone's getting KO'd too much. If I'm tanking a dungeon and I feel like I'm burning through too many cooldowns on pulls, someone's lacking and I need to scale it back. At that level and even in extremes, you really only need to make sure you're in the best possible gear and eat the right food.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

How can PC and Console even be equal, its not possible the interface itself is already different, the input devices are different. Someone playing on mouse and keyboard vs controller already has a very different game experience.

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Both input methods can be used on PC or console. I know people that play controller on PC and people that play KB+M on console. The default game is equal between the two platforms and there's many scenarios in which the lowest end PC experience is worse than what you can do on the base PS4.

This isn't about the default game client experience, the differences are some graphics options and that's it really, but rather it's entirely about already prohibited third0party tools that Square Enix can't correctly screen or moderate.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

For cross-platform games, individual platform "advantages" should be superficial; Better graphics, better refresh rate, better resolution? Sure. But playing on PC shouldn't allow for better player performance. "If you want to be able to play better you should spend money on a PC!" is a ridiculous statement.

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Life isn’t fair, sorry. PlayStation players subjective themselves to a limit experience is the consequence they chose when they picked the platform to play on.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Life isn’t fair, sorry. PlayStation players subjective themselves to a limit experience is the consequence they chose when they picked the platform to play on.

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My dad said the same thing when a certain country invaded another country. :(

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

For cross-platform games, individual platform "advantages" should be superficial; Better graphics, better refresh rate, better resolution? Sure. But playing on PC shouldn't allow for better player performance. "If you want to be able to play better you should spend money on a PC!" is a ridiculous statement.

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Thing is, better graphics and resolution ARE an advantage, in and of themselves. For example, if you do Savage / Ultimate with an ultra-wide screen, you can see the full arena without turning the camera, making mechanics way easier. Especially safe spot type ones.

I hate how we're just devolving this into the typical pc master race vs console peasants. Can everyone please just stop acting like spoiled children for once?

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Originally Posted by Lufir

My dad said the same thing when a certain country invaded another country. :(

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Well that took a turn. Back on the topic though, it makes absolutely no sense for SE to take a moderation and/or game design stance that puts like half the player base at a potential disadvantage in a cross-platform game. That's entirely stupid.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I hate how we're just devolving this into the typical pc master race vs console peasants. Can everyone please just stop acting like spoiled children for once?

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Because the "console omegalul" crowd just doesn't understand the game design of cross-platform games and how it impacts the choices Square Enix are making for everyone. They actually have a duty to ensure it's fair and even for all users on all supported platforms. An Xbox version that's been rumoured since like 2018 may still happen so that's just another piece of the design puzzle as well.

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Originally Posted by Johners

Because the "console omegalul" crowd just doesn't understand the game design of cross-platform games and how it impacts the choices Square Enix are making for everyone. They actually have a duty to ensure it's fair and even for all users on all supported platforms. An Xbox version that's been rumoured since like 2018 may still happen so that's just another piece of the design puzzle as well.

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I dont care. Stop bringing this crap up, its just cringe for both parties.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

You do realize you can do either methods on both platforms right?

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Does PS4 support keyboard macros. toggle keys, 18 mice buttons with macro customization? Which is another thing, many gaming keyboard and mice require their manufactures software to function, and a lot them provide access to macro and toggle key tools that normally aren't available to default windows drivers. They're gonna have to start banning hardware too. Or at the very least since we need to ban all 3rd party tools that will include your gaming keyboard/mice as they provide an unfair advantage. Discord too, another unfair advantage. Can't look up anything in a web browser either, technically that's a 3rd party application. Its a gray area because it has to be. Some things are essential to just using a PC that could be considered a 3rd party tool that provides an 'unfair' advantage.

But more importantly there is literally nothing they can do. You think anti-cheat spyware that boots up when you run the game is going to prevent people from using mods? It will make it more difficult for the average player to access QoL improvements and literally do nothing to stop people who are adamant about cheating. Virtual machines can run software outside the games active environment and are therefor not detectable by anti-cheating software. Or you can go one step further and literally run things that sniff your network packets on another machine entirely. People could have their entire raid callouts happening on their laptop next to the PC they're playing FFXIV on. There's absolutely no way SE could do anything to detect or stop that.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I dont care. Stop bringing this crap up, It's making my points look bad

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Fixed for you

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

Does PS4 support keyboard macros. toggle keys, 18 mice buttons with macro customization? Which is another thing, many gaming keyboard and mice require their manufactures software to function, and a lot them provide access to macro and toggle key tools that normally aren't available to default windows drivers. They're gonna have to start banning hardware too. Or at the very least since we need to ban all 3rd party tools that will include your gaming keyboard/mice as they provide an unfair advantage. Discord too, another unfair advantage. Can't look up anything in a web browser either, technically that's a 3rd party application. Its a gray area because it has to be. Some things are essential to just using a PC that could be considered a 3rd party tool that provides an 'unfair' advantage.

But more importantly there is literally nothing they can do. You think anti-cheat spyware that boots up when you run the game is going to prevent people from using mods? It will make it more difficult for the average player to access QoL improvements and literally do nothing to stop people who are adamant about cheating. Virtual machines can run software outside the games active environment and are therefor not detectable by anti-cheating software. Or you can go one step further and literally run things that sniff your network packets on another machine entirely. People could have their entire raid callouts happening on their laptop next to the PC they're playing FFXIV on. There's absolutely no way SE could do anything to detect or stop that.

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/facepalm Please tell me you're not serious.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

/facepalm Please tell me you're not serious.

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I mean i am sorta playing Devils advocate, but my point was this isn't a simple binary matter with a simple solution. That's why the ToS is probably sorta vague so they can handle incidents on a case by case basis.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

I mean i am sorta playing Devils advocate, but my point was this isn't a simple binary matter with a simple solution. That's why the ToS is probably sorta vague so they can handle incidents on a case by case basis.

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Peripheral software is usually fine but I think some of the macro functionality they have could potentially trigger anti-cheat software if it existed. Not that it's really a problem because the game has it's own macro function anyway.