Basic Competence

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Backing up the idea that this is actually Crystal Conflict, not just KO the enemy. That checkpoint matters! People make the same misconception in the Frontline modes and that's why they lose. Two teams will get stuck fighting each other while the third picks up the big targets.

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Killing other players is literally how you win Frontlines. It's also how you win Crystalline Conflict. Dead players cannot contest objectives.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Killing other players is literally how you win Frontlines. It's also how you win Crystalline Conflict. Dead players cannot contest objectives.

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Shhh.
Just let people stack on the objectives.
It's just going to be a free win if a hunter sees this and capitalizes on it.

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Originally Posted by Xel

Please, please put at least a basic competence quest in so people understand the complex concepts like focus fire.

Please.

P.S. Remove #ragebaitovertime

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I feel like we derailed the thread..

I agree that a basic competence quest should be implemented.

Thank you!

Thread derailed and trolled out, Time to make a new one.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Backing up the idea that this is actually Crystal Conflict, not just KO the enemy. That checkpoint matters! People make the same misconception in the Frontline modes and that's why they lose. Two teams will get stuck fighting each other while the third picks up the big targets.

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Ignoring objectives and fighting for third place. It is the Frontline way.

In FL I always assume there will be a group of players who are just going for the hand of mercy achievement and nothing else.

For CC I kind of like OP's idea of a tutorial mode like hall of the novice for pvp - I would also add a skirmish mode against NPCs for learning and practicing jobs without ruining games for actual human teammates.

I like how so many people are playing PvP now. I don't think it has ever been this popular in the history of FFXIV. I understand the pain of CC and FL at the moment though, and I have my own nostalgia for pre-6.1 Frontline and especially Hidden Gorge.

But nothing can be as one-sided as Frontline was before they changed to freelancers (days of Maelstrom vs. Immortal Flames on Primal DC.)

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Originally Posted by Avenger

Ignoring objectives and fighting for third place. It is the Frontline way.

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You and they are both wrong, though. Killing the enemy is the core element of all PvP modes.

Killing enemes in Frontline: gives the killer +10 Battle High, and all assists +2 Battle High; reduces enemy tactical points by 8 (except Seal Rock); increases your team's tactical points by 8 (except Seal Rock); and of course removes that enemy player from the field for a time. They will not contribute damage or healing or buffs and they will not generate limit break. They will also have to ride back to wherever the fights are.

Killing enemies in Rival Wings: contributes to stacking your Soaring and Flying High buff; denies that enemy the ability to damage or protect mechs or other objectives; prevents that player from gathering or spending CE on mechs; and as before removes them from the field, and requires them to ride back to the fights after they respawn.

Killing enemies in Crystalline Conflict: increases their death respawn timer by 1 second per death; and removes that player from the game for an extended period of time, during which they cannot participate in fights and do not generate Limit Break. Additionally, several classes' Limit Breaks end immediately on their death, including Scholar, Summoner, Bard (as well as Bard's mundane songs), Astrologian, and Sage, resulting in them being high priority targets if they have activated their Limit Break.

The fact that people do not generate Limit Break while dead, and they stay dead for longer each time they are killed, is an enormous element to winning Crystalline Conflict. Even just 12 seconds is an *eternity* when the maps are so small.

Denying enemy Limit Break gauge while you continue to build yours is literally going to win you tons of games. It's incredibly obvious if you have two of the same class in the game. If I pop Seraph around the same time as the enemy SCH, but we assassinate him while I kite and live, I will have Seraph again *long* before he will, which will give our team an enormous advantage in the next big fight.

https://i.redd.it/dxhs6awl9ge81.jpg

Fixation on objectives over killing the enemy is the biggest noob trap in XIV's PvP systems. If you kill the enemy, you get the objectives for free. Because they can't contest them.

The much bigger problem in frontlines is stopping the team from pathing in a way that’ll get them pinched by both other teams, especially when they’re significantly ahead and likely to start getting focused by the other teams

How about we just fight one other team at a time instead of donating battle highs

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

We're almost a month into this thing, and 95% of players still don't seem to understand that more bodies on a checkpoint will cap it faster.
People still run around in the open with all their abilities on CD slapping their basic combos until they die,
and dogfight in the expressways after winning a team fight while one player from the enemy team pushes the crystal to checkpoint.
Folks will blow their entire burst combos into Guard or Hallowed Ground, waste CC on targets that just broke root with Purify,
split DPS between 5 different targets, and refuse under any circumstances to peel for an ally.
It's common for teams to play FFA Deathmatch for 5 minutes only to suddenly panic and try to "get serious" when the clock goes into OT.
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1. I didn't know about that. I knew more bodies don't move crystal faster.
2n3. No comment
4. I do this sometimes. My brain is mid thought (burst mode) so but time I relies guard is up, its to late.
5. Because 'serious mode' all the time takes energy. And I find it's easier to get salty if you're serious all the time.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Dead players get a stacking penalty to their respawn timer. They spend more time dead, less time fighting and generating LB. You will win more games by causing enemies to be literally incapable of contesting the point - because they are *dead* - than you will by ignoring them and "pushing the crystal."

In the future, please don't be a pedant. It doesn't make you sound smart, it makes you sound like someone picking at nits in lieu of coming up with actual rebuttal.

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Killing helps sure but crystal the name of the game.

As I've said before: they can't contest the crystal if they're dead.

Killing enemy players is by far and away the easiest way to push the crystal, so the argument of whether killing players or pushing the crystal is more important makes no sense to begin with. The former precedes the latter 90% of the time.

The actual argument underneath is whether you should move off the crystal to finish off low runners before they can pot, or let them go to stand on the crystal, which has an obvious most-of-the-time correct answer. Go finish off the runner, secure the kill, and get a numbers advantage, which makes the enemy team back off the crystal. Then you can actually move the objective because the enemy team isn’t cockblocking you by planting themselves on the objective as well. Because you’ve forced them to move off the crystal. By killing enough of them to make them regroup or trickle.

You can stand on the crystal for the next hundred years and not move it an inch if you don’t kill the enemy team so they’re not standing on it with you. Following through to secure the kill as much as possible (without overextending and dying) when enemy players are low is really REALLY REALLY important.

If they did implement a quest to help newer players, what should it include?