Request: Expand apartments to be upgradeable in size and amenities

Didn't read it all.

Need the following placeables to stick in an apartment.

1. Mail Slot (wall mounted) - to retrieve your mail, should be usable in houses as well
2. Workshop access
3. Hydroponics Growing Stand - 8-plant bed that goes vertical instead of on the floor, so you can grow plants inside just like the Deluxe Garden Bed.

I agree that we should get bigger apartment access. Just keep in mind this has to function on the Instance server with everything else in the game that is instanced. That includes apartment interiors, house interiors, company workshop and private chamber interiors, dungeons, trials, raids, etc.

Workshop access should never be decoupled from scarcity - honestly, they've done enough inflationary damage as it is.

How is giving everyone access to a workshop causing damage?

Because FCs won't be able to hoard those full exterior walls and make millions off them? Or using the Sub voyages to get all the vendor items to make lots of gil?

Mostly voyage gil generation, yes. It's already wildly unhealthy for the game as it is, and I don't think we really want to exist in a world where you have to have solo FC alts turning over workshops to be able to afford anything of value.

Logged on here just to reply to this thread with a resounding YESSS PLEASE all of this.. being such a huge fan of anything Ishgardian and losing out on a plot only to see them all fill up was such a huge gut punch, so I begrudgingly settled for an apt but honestly wouldn't even WANT a normal plot if I could just upgrade it.

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Originally Posted by Valfreyja

Didn't read it all.

Need the following placeables to stick in an apartment.

1. Mail Slot (wall mounted) - to retrieve your mail, should be usable in houses as well
2. Workshop access
3. Hydroponics Growing Stand - 8-plant bed that goes vertical instead of on the floor, so you can grow plants inside just like the Deluxe Garden Bed.

I agree that we should get bigger apartment access. Just keep in mind this has to function on the Instance server with everything else in the game that is instanced. That includes apartment interiors, house interiors, company workshop and private chamber interiors, dungeons, trials, raids, etc.

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I love your 1st suggestion... I'm unsure about your 2nd since the workshop is just about the only way my FC leader is able to make any sort of gil which all goes back into the FC itself to help us players with whatever we need. Also I mentioned in my post that an option for a greenhouse would be nice with room for deluxe garden plots. I'll definitely add the mail slot thing to my post tho.

YES THIS.

Maybe they'll even listen this time around :3

Yeah, but there are other ways to make gil, clearly. Given the number of houseless players that are just doing fine with making gil.

Instead of having exclusive access to the Exteriors, or Sub loot for vendors, it will return to crafting and selling gear, Primal weapons, glam items, shard or crystal farming, or other methods.

Still plenty of ways to make the gil. There are also mounts and minions that can be farmed to sell to make gil.

Fun idea, fund it

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Originally Posted by Valfreyja

How is giving everyone access to a workshop causing damage?

Because FCs won't be able to hoard those full exterior walls and make millions off them? Or using the Sub voyages to get all the vendor items to make lots of gil?

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THIS. Exterior housing is way too unreasonably expensive.

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Originally Posted by Valfreyja

Yeah, but there are other ways to make gil, clearly. Given the number of houseless players that are just doing fine with making gil.

Instead of having exclusive access to the Exteriors, or Sub loot for vendors, it will return to crafting and selling gear, Primal weapons, glam items, shard or crystal farming, or other methods.

Still plenty of ways to make the gil. There are also mounts and minions that can be farmed to sell to make gil.

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You misunderstand the problem - it's not the products of voyages that will be devalued, because done correctly, the items in question cannot be devalued short of an act of god (ie: nerf). It's the inflationary threat of hundreds of people filling out their alt slots with solo workshops and using them to turn over hundreds of thousands of gil/day/ea. Like I've said, the current profusion of workshop shells and grey-area FC stacking is dangerous enough - removing scarcity and simultaneously making it perfectly legal to roll them 7 deep per account is tantamount to putting a 6 month countdown on the gil economy blowing up.

Though it would be funny to watch the calamitous explosion of submarine material costs followed by voidrake overtaking gil as the primary trade currency, so who's to say if it is really bad.

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Originally Posted by Sindele

You misunderstand the problem - it's not the products of voyages that will be devalued, because done correctly, the items in question cannot be devalued short of an act of god (ie: nerf). It's the inflationary threat of hundreds of people filling out their alt slots with solo workshops and using them to turn over hundreds of thousands of gil/day/ea. Like I've said, the current profusion of workshop shells and grey-area FC stacking is dangerous enough - removing scarcity and simultaneously making it perfectly legal to roll them 7 deep per account is tantamount to putting a 6 month countdown on the gil economy blowing up.

Though it would be funny to watch the calamitous explosion of submarine material costs followed by voidrake overtaking gil as the primary trade currency, so who's to say if it is really bad.

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• products of voyages won't be devalued
• removing scarcity will devalue them

I think you need to learn about supply and demand, friend. If there is an overabundance of supply, then the price will go down, if the demand increases to match the supply, then the price will stabilize. The economy blows up every time a new item is released. Either way it's a non-issue because I haven't mentioned nor entertained the mention of adding workshops to apartments, which is what this thread is about. I think FC workshops are interesting and maybe could be applied to private housing, but I don't think they're a good fit for apartments for the following reasons:

1. Apartment owners have very little use for the products that come from workshops aside from rare cases.

That's it. One reason is all you need. Speculating about the market is useless in FFXIV because the market is already so volatile as it is, not to mention with cross-world market access, if I don't like the prices on my server I can just go somewhere else where it's cheaper, ezpz.

So, with that said, let's get back to topic: Expand apartments to be upgradeable in size and amenities.

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Originally Posted by Sindele

It's the inflationary threat of hundreds of people filling out their alt slots with solo workshops and using them to turn over hundreds of thousands of gil/day/ea.

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What inflation? What has gotten more expensive that's not explained by lack of supply due to the content that sources it fell out of favor? (gil for 3rd party purposes doesn't count).

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Originally Posted by GeminiReed

What inflation? What has gotten more expensive that's not explained by lack of supply due to the content that sources it fell out of favor? (gil for 3rd party purposes doesn't count).

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Let's not dive into this topic any more. They obviously don't fully understand the concept of "supply and demand" just yet so you're not going to get an answer that makes sense.

I don't mean this to be disrespectful, but you clearly don't understand what I'm referring to. There is no "supply and demand" with items you sell to vendors. That gil-per-day quote is not subject to the whims of the market at all, it is the statistical product of a certain subset of submersible builds.

You're certainly correct that we're getting off-topic, though. I'll give a TL;DR answer to the question instead of my usual multi-paragraph explanations: the point is that the inflation it could produce is constrained by scarcity and reinvestment into more houses - there's just not that many people able to run workshops at scale because housing availability and acquisition is a huge pain in the ass for anyone without lots of starting capital and multiple accounts. It is, however, a very significant driver of why the third-party market price for FC houses at any size has exploded to upwards of 25x+ placard prices for smalls. Uncoupling workshops from scarcity will mean more people running these builds at scale, and you will see the effects come back into the market in force.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

THIS. Exterior housing is way too unreasonably expensive.

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Exterior housing skins are like Thavnairian Onions. There's a lot more work involved than players assume.

Have you tried looking up the materials lists for them on a site like Garland Tools or Teamcraft? The lists are long. Some materials require hundreds when added up.

To make the process even worse, it's not a matter of pressing a button once you have all the materials collected. Housing skin fabrication tends to have 7-8 phases and 3-4 of those phases will have multiple stages. Each stage has its specific materials. You have to submit those materials not just separate but in 3 stacks each.

Let's say stage one takes 45 lumber, 90 ingots, 60 rivets and 21 cloth.

The steps you take would be:
Submit 15 lumber
Submit 15 lumber
Submit 15 lumber
Submit 30 ingots
Submit 30 ingots
Submit 30 ingots
Submit 20 rivets
Submit 20 rivets
Submit 20 rivets
Submit 7 cloth
Submit 7 cloth
Submit 7 cloth

Press to continue to next stage.

Now you have to keep repeating that for all the stages of all the phases until the skin is completed. It's pretty time consuming even after the time required to gather all the materials.

That is why they are expensive. Few players are willing to go to that much effort even if they have access to a fabrication station with the correct schematic unlocked.

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Originally Posted by GeminiReed

What inflation? What has gotten more expensive that's not explained by lack of supply due to the content that sources it fell out of favor? (gil for 3rd party purposes doesn't count).

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Salvaged accessories. The concern is not the minions or housing items or the other items on the voyage loot tables. Those are random and don't always drop.

The concern is salvaged accessories that can be farmed in large quantities with the right builds. They do not devalue because they are good only for one thing - selling to a vendor to get gil. The impact is limited right now because workshop access is limited.

Now imagine what would happen to markets if instead of about 2000 FCs per world were getting an average of 300-400k gil from salvaged accessories a day, 21,000 players were each getting an average of 300-400k gil a day. We're talking freshly minted gil new to the economy coming from a NPC vendor, not gil trading hands between players so one loses what another gains.

This is a gain only system for all involved.

Inflation would skyrocket.

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Originally Posted by MoonmoonMoonmoon

Let's not dive into this topic any more. They obviously don't fully understand the concept of "supply and demand" just yet so you're not going to get an answer that makes sense.

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And you don't understand this isn't an issue of supply and demand that Sindele is referring to.

There's more to workshops than just the occasional minion drop.

This absolutely is on topic when the topic is about adding workshop access to personal apartments.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

This absolutely is on topic when the topic is about adding workshop access to personal apartments.

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And it's not really something I feel adds value to the thread since personal houses don't have workshop access either and that's not what this thread is about at all. The thread is about bringing up apartments to a similar level of personal houses to give them greater appeal. This would ease the burden on the regular housing. Plus outside of voyages, apartment owners would have little use for a workshop and FCs cannot own apartments. Workshops are a moot point.

I made a post like this 2 years ago. Here was my idea for it:

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

It gets mentioned in almost every housing thread and I think it's a big enough topic to get its own thread. Improvements and Upgrades for Apartments!

What do I mean by Improvements and Upgrades?
Being able to expand the size and/or item limit in Apartments, maybe even adding a loft/second story.
It could be done in phases and be a gil-sink.

As an example:
We start out with the vanilla apartments we have now.
Phase one could be expanding the item and storehouse limits to 200 (the same as a small house). Cost 500k.
Phase two could be either expanding the ground floor to the size of a medium house's basement OR adding a loft/second story (while also increasing the limits to 300). Cost 2.5 mil.
Phase three could be doing the other upgrade you didn't do previously. Cost 15 mil.
Phase four could be the final one and let us upgrade to large house's basement size (and increasing the limits to 400). Cost 30 mil.
I tried to make the upgrade cost close to purchasing an actual house of that size when you add all the cost together.
Maybe as a restriction, people who start to upgrade their apartments can't own homes and vice-versa (owning a vanilla apartment will be fine, like their grandfathered in).
(You could even ditch the third and fourth phases and I still think it could work)

Why do this?
To help with the limited stock of houses and how annoying it is to buy a previously owned plot. The pay off would be that you won't have an outdoor area and that you will need to pay for upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The concern is salvaged accessories that can be farmed in large quantities with the right builds. They do not devalue because they are good only for one thing - selling to a vendor to get gil.

... getting an average of 300-400k gil a day. We're talking freshly minted gil new to the economy coming from a NPC vendor.

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Yikes. That explains why botters are trying to take over entire FC wards. I expect that'll get nerfed sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Now imagine what would happen to markets if ... 21,000 players were each getting an average of 300-400k gil a day.

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That's a worst case estimate. How many people took advantage of coffee biscuits? Out of the 21,600 possible apartments how many owners would be willing and able to go through the significantly more involved process? IMO 10% would be a generous estimate.

I don't disagree that the potential gil creation is a problem but that's on Square to balance.

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Originally Posted by GeminiReed

Out of the 21,600 possible apartments how many owners would be willing and able to go through the significantly more involved process? IMO 10% would be a generous estimate.

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This wouldn't even be an issue if we didn't consider adding workshop access to private housing, apartments or otherwise. :)

This thread is about bringing apartments up to par with private dwellings. Private dwellings do not currently have workshop access so talking about it here is OFF TOPIC.

Thanks.

Instead of making appartments bigger, just add instances to the houses.

Leave the house-skin and garden to the owner, let the owner take care for lodgers as it works with roommates, just with instances. So either lodgers can buy in with a fix price or add something like "50k/150k/300k rent" per months. And at the moment someone knocks at the door, you can choose in which instance you want to port. (Same as appartments works, but the rooms are obviously as big as the house is S/M/L.)

It´s something they can clearly add without any issues and it would solve a lot of housing issues, but keeping the village-feeling alive. All what poeple would lose is the garden, unless you´ve a friendship with the owner. In that case they could add real gardening plots in the house too.

Once the owner drops the abo or the house, the 1st lodger can buy it for a small price or someone new will take cover for it. Limit it to 10 instances per house and the most issues should be solved next to "I want M/L houses". (In case of rents, the owner should pay taxes. This would take gold out of the game aswell.)

In the end, get ride of the appartments.

Not perfect, but it would atleast bring more life into each ward and some kind of social feature. And it´s probably the easiest and fastest way to get ride of the dumb situation without killing what we already have.

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Originally Posted by MoonmoonMoonmoon

This thread is about bringing apartments up to par with private dwellings. Private dwellings do not currently have workshop access so talking about it here is OFF TOPIC.

Thanks.

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At no point did you state "private dwellings" in your original post until you went tantrum mode and edited it.

You don't get to dictate what suggestions and comments others make. Their ideas and comments are just as valid and just as worthy of discussion.

Keep in mind that the reason so many players choose to go the FC house route is for that workshop access. They don't feel SE should limit access to FCs, where usually only the officers get to use the workshop. They want access as well.

If having access to a workshop is a part of what is driving demand for houses in general, then it needs to be part of the discussion about how to make apartments more appealing to reduce demand for houses.

That out of the way, apartments are already close to par with houses except for one things - space.

Chocobo stable? Check - you automatically get access to a chocobo stable when buying an apartment. No need to buy one.

Mailbox? Check - every apartment building has a mailbox in the lobby. No need to buy one.

Summoning Bell/Marketboard access? Check - they are literally right next to every apartment building. Heck, my old FC used to run to the apartment building MB and Summoning Bell from our original FC house because it was closest.

Gardening? Check - flowerpots can grow not only every seed that can be grown in a garden patch, they can also grow the decorative flower seeds that can't be grown in a garden patch.

Intercross gardening? No, but then the majority of house owners don't even garden let alone do intercross gardening. People give it a try, realize it's an annoying amount of daily maintenance and stop bothering.

Outdoor furnishings? No. Players are going to be split on whether that's even important considering how little time they spend in the yard of their house compared to the interior. Many players over the years have already said they don't care about the outdoor furnishing placement.

That leaves space. Players naturally want more room because that opens the door to more creative options. If we're being fair, even a small house doesn't really cut it. It is just 2 apartments stacked one on top of the other. About the only thing a small house adds to the equation is the ability to float furnishings up from the basement to impact design on the ground floor.

SE themselves said they were considering adding in apartment size options. They told us this all the way back in Stormblood when they were discussing what players want for improvements for housing. What happened with their discussion? We don't know. They've been silent on the subject since.

SE is not unaware of player feeling but only they can do something to address player concerns.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Intercross gardening? No, but then the majority of house owners don't even garden let alone do intercross gardening. People give it a try, realize it's an annoying amount of daily maintenance and stop bothering.

Outdoor furnishings? No. Players are going to be split on whether that's even important considering how little time they spend in the yard of their house compared to the interior. Many players over the years have already said they don't care about the outdoor furnishing placement.

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Going to disagree on these two points. I will grant though that the second wouldn't be so irritating if Square would stop rubbing our noses in housing scarcity every time a seasonal event reward is outdoor furnishing. I'll also agree they're super tacky. They're a waste of developer resources that could have been used on something less controversial.

Unfortunately there are some crafting mats gated behind cross-breeding. I don't use the gardens I have access to all that often but they do get used on occasion. The alternative is to significantly overpay on the marketboard for them because they are just that level of annoying to grow.

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Originally Posted by MoonmoonMoonmoon

This wouldn't even be an issue if we didn't consider adding workshop access to private housing, apartments or otherwise. :)

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Why should apartments be limited to personal housing? I would be perfectly happy with instanced FC housing and if that involved apartments then workshops are an issue to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

At no point did you state "private dwellings" in your original post until you went tantrum mode and edited it.

You don't get to dictate what suggestions and comments others make. Their ideas and comments are just as valid and just as worthy of discussion.

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And at no point has anyone suggested that FC's get to own apartments until now, so suggesting things that FCs can do that private dwellers cannot is out of scope of the thread. However if you had simply suggested that FC's be able to own apartments, then you would be on topic, but it wasn't even your suggestion. Do you think that FC's should be allowed to own and base out of apartments? I do not.

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Originally Posted by GeminiReed

Why should apartments be limited to personal housing? I would be perfectly happy with instanced FC housing and if that involved apartments then workshops are an issue to be addressed.

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I don't think it would work with how FC's have private chambers for members.

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Originally Posted by MoonmoonMoonmoon

I don't think it would work with how FC's have private chambers for members.

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I'm on record as saying that FC chambers are a BadIdea(tm). If FC chambers have to be sacrificed to make instancing work for a guild hall I'll be the first to throw my torch on its pyre. If apartments become a functional replacement for personal housing then FC chambers have even less of a reason to exist.

Seriously get yourself an independent apartment before drama erupts. Seen it happen too many times. One GL in a different game threw a temper tantrum and dissolved the guild when one of her officers stepped down. An FC I was part of here lost their house when the GL's account got hacked. What should have been my forever guild turned extremely cultish after a new officer board was elected so I noped on out. About three months later a huge drama bomb pretty much destroyed that game's chapter.

Don't tie your personal housing to a guild, ever. Unless it's a guild of just you and your alts.

I think this is the problem with a lot of systems they designed. A lot of optimistic assumptions and little to no thought going towards "what could possibly go wrong?"