Tribute to Zenos

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Then Zenos gives that speech about agreeing with reasons to Jullus and we're just in the background like

https://imgur.com/gallery/uVJDXyM

Okay apparently I can't remember how to do pictures but that's supposed to be the side eye meme

https://imgur.com/gallery/uVJDXyM

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lol, great meme pic for that XD

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Imo Zenos was a direct reflection of the WoL from the Garleans side and without the surrounding relationships to mold him into what the WoL is ( a super warrior who shows up to save the day, from their pov you're a super weapon that shows up and annihilates all of them and their friends just like Zenos ).
It's pretty obvious that's what the devs were going for when you look at him from Asahi's and the other Garlean soldiers pov in Stormblood and the whole body-swap sequence, he's like a perversion of us.
If you actually paid attention in the story you'll know that the WoL isn't exactly innocent when it comes to pretty blindly slaughtering people en masse or just based on the word of someone, we're pretty blood thirsty ourselves ( especially when it comes to beast races or anything we see as '' evil '' ) .
Makes perfect sense as a nemesis but people treated him like '' the main villain '' which I think was a mistake.

I think he fit really well in this expansion especially as a nihilistic nemesis which is the same but also the direct opposite of the WoL.
As someone that enjoys challenges in games I think he was partly also meant to be a reflection of the player ( people who do Savage, Extremes and Ultimates at least ), which also plays into the WoL as a thrill seeker.
Zenos is basically us and the WoL at our core without all of the surrounding stuff like connections to others and restraint.
Don't most people basically play games to fight and to kill? There's a reason why violence is the overwhelmingly most popular gameplay style that basically everything revolves around.
He's just a more raw and honest reflection of that part of us in the setting and also us as players of games.
We pretend to be all civilized but we still indulge in violence for entertainment and have with real violence historically too and tbh probably would today if more extreme violence was legal too.

Zenos's presence and role in the story makes a whole lot of sense with his character he's basically a story skipper who gives zero shits and just wants to fight you.
The Ancients were always what the overarching story revolved around it was never about him.
And tbh Zenos still had more depth as a character than most video games villains did, just because he didn't have soap opera storyline meant to make us sadge about him doesn't mean that there was nothing to his character.
He was a very reasonable and predictable villain that couldn't be reasoned with, but he was reasonable and was fully aware of what he was doing and unapologetic about it.
In a game full of liars he was probably one of the most honest character lol.

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Alot of people miss this about Zenos and call him boring when he's probably one of the better characters in game. The way they used him in the Garlemald section of Endwalker was poetry in motion and I think alot of people considerably failed themselves in missing the timing of all of it. If people revisited the Endwalker Story, I believe some interesting points could be made in favor of Zenos as a character. Post Elpis portion, we're left off with the question from Hermes / Meteion of "What does it mean to live" or "What is the meaning of life". The answer Hermes posed to the Meteia to find and ultimately their conclusion based off what they saw was just for all to wish for death or the end.

Fast forward alil, we have Zenos save a refugee (perhaps, just for sport but who knows) and approach the group. When Jullus confronts him on what the meaning of all this was and the massacre of the Garlean people that he semi-ignited, Zenos counters with quite a profound comment, unbefitting of his character till that point, that everyone must decide what they live for. Something that Meteion only truly understands AFTER your confrontation in the The Final Day.

This was a poetic use for the character considering Zenos was someone that uptil he met you and battled with you the last two times, did not HAVE a reason to his life persay and found it largely boring, in his own words. Thus the growth that has come over Zenos since your fight has somehow found him having the answer to Hermes question, despite the fact that hes murdered heavily. Hermes was hoping that by finding said answer, he would desway his people on the use and deconstruction of their creations simply because it didn't serve a purpose to humankind, but Zenos has rarely tried to do anything to serve mankind.

I found that personally incredibly well done and well timed, both as a counter reflection point and answer. I think that is why the WoL gets stunned for a second right after he says that. Cause it is definitely astounding that based off history, he came to that conclusion.

Emoji kissy face I will never forget our time alone together, Zenos.

+1 liked Zenos i thought he bought an interesting dynamic to the story over his arc as he was different to the usual encounters we had which was actually a refreshing change from the very typical. I hope we get some more information i feel like there are incomplete details to his character and our interaction but totally fine if there isn't more.

I hated him so much. He didn't die nearly soon enough. From the way they wasted our time with unwinnable fights with him to them giving him the artificial echo and Zenos using it far better than us with the real echo in a fraction of the time, he was awful. Doing the worst things he could just to get our attention, like some attention starved psychopath child.

Had I the option, I would have killed myself there at the end instead of giving him his pathetic fight. Just so he'd be stuck there knowing he'd never get what he wanted. Forever.

Also, "In from the Cold" was really gross.

I know this was not the point but the only Coheed and Cambria song I knew was Welcome Home, but this one is good to. I like.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

I know this was not the point but the only Coheed and Cambria song I knew was Welcome Home, but this one is good to. I like.

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Huge fan of Coheed myself, so glad to see! ^_^ Thanks for watching

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Yeah, it's easy to see how scary we are from the pov of those who aren't on our side ( doesn't mean they're evil either ).
I mean, there's a dungeon where we're told to go and kill a mine full of slaves early on and we kinda just go and massacre beast tribe people just because we're told to.

The WoL is good at heart but I also think that it's pretty clear that we're also very quick to do some pretty heinous stuff.
The faction leaders aren't exactly guilt-free either but we still consider them good people and do what they say without questioning it a lot of the bad stuff they've done is stuff we've been the enablers of.
Our characters are basically adrenaline junkies who over time have become more responsible due to the people around us.
Zenos was just a lot more self-aware about it and unapologetic he didn't need a reason while it could be argued that a lot of the '' adventures '' we've had have just been excuses to kill people who don't necessarily deserve it and in some cases have done no wrong.

Edit: Kinda reminds me a little of in Mass Effect how people glorified certain Renegade options like punching an annoying reporter in the face in public and generally just abusing the Spectre status.
People are totally fine with it and still consider Sheperd a good person.
Unless he's full Renegade I guess but I think most would still consider him good in the grand scheme of things.

I thought it was cool that Zenos was a lot more honest about it there were just no excuses or dumb attempts at rationalizing it which we ultimately do all the time in games and often in real life even.
A lot of people condone violence irl just out of spite for even rather minor things.

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Yea I think Zenos is what a true neutral in D&D would look like. He really does not care about good or evil. Just what he wanted to do and he will do everything to get it. He even stopped the Black Rose so he can wait for us to come back and challenge him again fearing the Black Rose would kill us and any future potential challengers.

I sure hope he comes back. I think although the ending was really awesome with our duel with him, it was a bit too short. I think more could be done with his character.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Alot of people miss this about Zenos and call him boring when he's probably one of the better characters in game. The way they used him in the Garlemald section of Endwalker was poetry in motion and I think alot of people considerably failed themselves in missing the timing of all of it. If people revisited the Endwalker Story, I believe some interesting points could be made in favor of Zenos as a character. Post Elpis portion, we're left off with the question from Hermes / Meteion of "What does it mean to live" or "What is the meaning of life". The answer Hermes posed to the Meteia to find and ultimately their conclusion based off what they saw was just for all to wish for death or the end.

Fast forward alil, we have Zenos save a refugee (perhaps, just for sport but who knows) and approach the group. When Jullus confronts him on what the meaning of all this was and the massacre of the Garlean people that he semi-ignited, Zenos counters with quite a profound comment, unbefitting of his character till that point, that everyone must decide what they live for. Something that Meteion only truly understands AFTER your confrontation in the The Final Day.

This was a poetic use for the character considering Zenos was someone that uptil he met you and battled with you the last two times, did not HAVE a reason to his life persay and found it largely boring, in his own words. Thus the growth that has come over Zenos since your fight has somehow found him having the answer to Hermes question, despite the fact that hes murdered heavily. Hermes was hoping that by finding said answer, he would desway his people on the use and deconstruction of their creations simply because it didn't serve a purpose to humankind, but Zenos has rarely tried to do anything to serve mankind.

I found that personally incredibly well done and well timed, both as a counter reflection point and answer. I think that is why the WoL gets stunned for a second right after he says that. Cause it is definitely astounding that based off history, he came to that conclusion.

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You give a pretty insightful post. I guess in a way Meteion and Zenos can be a counterpart to each other as well. Both searching for the answer to life, but while Meteion flew straight up as a creation of an ancient, Zenos walked around to find the answer and grew up in the process while Meteion just straight up despaired.

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

So you come to a TRIBUTE thread to post your unwanted hate and you're the one who calls Zenos an "attention starved psychopath child"? That's ironic. :D You know what's "really gross"? You say they wasted your time with unwinnable fights, but YOU willingly waste your time on hating Zenos. He's just a fictional character but you Zenos haters are all crazier than him in real life, which is scary. If you were better than Zenos, then you would respect the fact that people like different things and let us celebrate him in peace.

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I think it’s the same few people who post very long hate comments on EVERY SINGLE ZENOS POST that i’ve seen (as a fan of him, I tend to look at a lot of posts about him.) Devoting so much time, energy, and being so rude to others over a character in a game that you “hate” is a huge red flag to me. I honestly think that these people hate-obsessing over a character have some issues to work through, and should probably be ignored, lest we egg them on further and give them more reason to continue embarrassing themselves.

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Originally Posted by Garet

Yea I think Zenos is what a true neutral in D&D would look like. He really does not care about good or evil. Just what he wanted to do and he will do everything to get it. He even stopped the Black Rose so he can wait for us to come back and challenge him again fearing the Black Rose would kill us and any future potential challengers.

I sure hope he comes back. I think although the ending was really awesome with our duel with him, it was a bit too short. I think more could be done with his character.

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I totally agree! Perfect example of a neutral character (chaotic neutral imo) I think there are too many mysteries left about him-if there weren’t, I’d say he was done, but they’ve added mysteries such as his dreams and his voidsent that haven’t been solved yet! And cant really be solved without him in the picture

Okay character, one of the better ones. I felt bad for leaving him in there alone. When waking up and seeing bore teens bawling I could not care less and thought why the boring ones always have plot armor :)

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Originally Posted by Garet

Yea I think Zenos is what a true neutral in D&D would look like. He really does not care about good or evil. Just what he wanted to do and he will do everything to get it. He even stopped the Black Rose so he can wait for us to come back and challenge him again fearing the Black Rose would kill us and any future potential challengers.

I sure hope he comes back. I think although the ending was really awesome with our duel with him, it was a bit too short. I think more could be done with his character.

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I will say... at the end of our duel, we were both lying there in pretty bad shape. Yet, the WoL still lives - don't see any reason why he might not have made it out as well. :) Looking forward to his return, there is definitely more to be done with his story.

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Originally Posted by Faust1105

I will say... at the end of our duel, we were both lying there in pretty bad shape. Yet, the WoL still lives - don't see any reason why he might not have made it out as well. :) Looking forward to his return, there is definitely more to be done with his story.

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Going to believe in his return until something more official is stated by Yoshi, future lore books, or the writer.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Asahi is pretty much the only major character in the game that I've never heard anyone say they like, funny enough.

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Buahaha very true but I was just pointing out that everyone has a different perspective and what is good for one may be bad for another. Kudos to square enix though for being able to create characters in their story that can evoke such passion - whichever direction it goes. Being able to love or hate anything requires said passion to be evoked. Otherwise we'd all just be indifferent :P

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Originally Posted by KaitoAsaha

Going to believe in his return until something more official is stated by Yoshi, future lore books, or the writer.

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Yeah, as much as I hate to admit it after that awesome fight, I think they actually finally sent him to Valhalla.

My only regret is they didn’t nail his usage until Endwalker. He could’ve been hilarious in Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Yeah, as much as I hate to admit it after that awesome fight, I think they actually finally sent him to Valhalla.

My only regret is they didn’t nail his usage until Endwalker. He could’ve been hilarious in Shadowbringers.

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I think it would have been neat to play as him once or twice to give us a bit more first hand insight into the fall of Garlemald. Just about everything happened off screen, sadly.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I think it would have been neat to play as him once or twice to give us a bit more first hand insight into the fall of Garlemald. Just about everything happened off screen, sadly.

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Oh my god. Or body swap with him and fight ourself.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Oh my god. Our body swap with him and fight ourself.

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I'm not gonna lie. That would have been amazing.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I think it would have been neat to play as him once or twice to give us a bit more first hand insight into the fall of Garlemald. Just about everything happened off screen, sadly.

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Yeah, the Garlemald section not being longer is my only big beef with the expansion... Seriously wish more was done with it, considering, but I enjoyed what was there. Hoping for more going forward.

(Apologies if any of this has already been repeated; I'm feeling lazy and have only just glanced through the thread. :X)

Regarding the topic ... never really understood the Zenos hate, honestly. I mean... I get the why of it mostly, since he's a murderous bastard and all, but I think he worked pretty well, evidenced by how polorising he is in the player base. People go on about sympathetic villains and the "depth" of their characterizations/plight (I loved HW, Emet, Elidibus and the Asians in general, don't get me wrong) but honestly... that can get mentally exhausting and overplayed to me. It can result in a sort of "Oh... another one... ok..." reaction, which is never good. Intersperse someone like Zenos who is fairly simple (on the surface, at least) on the other hand, and you're giving the player/reader a break between all this heavy narrative, if that makes sense?

Also, I think he's underestimated and for all the wrong reasons. Yes, he's essentially a psychopath (or has those tendencies since Psychopathy itself isn't a diagnosis anymore) but that's what makes someone like him so terrifying, and not just some mustache twirling villain... as with any real-life psychopath. Zenos can't be reasoned with or appealed to as he feels nothing outside of the rush he gets from a life-or-death battle, and he just keeps plowing forward regardless of what's in his way to get what he wants, damn the consequences. That's scary, and my character wanted to put him down as soon as possible before he could harm anyone else.

This narrative gets sidelined in Endwalker further into the story and yet it works. No longer is he your focus, and he hates it; or as much as someone like him can even feel hate. Try as he might, he just isn't even on your radar anymore as you have far greater concerns; no reason to just drop everything and entertain his desire for a duel to the death... so he goes looking for one for you. Yikes!

That final battle with him was a highlight in the expansion for me. The canon seems to be that while the WoL genuinely enjoys helping people and bettering the world (even while complaining. hello, DRK questline!), she/he does enjoy a good fight (even as she/he may deny it inwardly), and my character(s) certainly does. The WoL has just saved her planet, the universe at large, her friends are safe, and she doesn't really have any pressing matters to worry about. Finally, finally she can have a brutal beatdown with someone without any burdens weighing on her.

EDIT: "Well, why didn't they just show more of how horrible Zenos is?", some say. We've seen plenty of that across 3 expansions now, though really... is more needed? When you hear about a serial killer who murdered 10 children, do you need to have seen the crimes to know how terrible they are? Come on now.

TLDR; Zenos works as a villain y'all haters are just nubs. /s

In all seriousness, I get people not liking a character but it is pretty crummy to go into a fan thread only to complain about them. I'm not a fan of Lyse (don't hate her, just neutral. can take or leave her), but I wouldn't go into a Lyse thread trying to start beef. That's just petty.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Oh my god. Our body swap with him and fight ourself.

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Thought this is where they might eventually go with it, but alas.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

Thought this is where they might eventually go with it, but alas.

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Oh, they can still do it. It really doesn't matter who is in possession of our body if our power is used against ourselves.

What I thought was awkward was when we shoulder slam ourselves. That alone would cause all kinds of weird sensations.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Oh, they can still do it. It really doesn't matter who is in possession of our body if our power is used against ourselves.

What I thought was awkward was when we shoulder slam ourselves. That alone would cause all kinds of weird sensations.

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Depends how they'd handle it, as not just anyone would be capable of doing so; even Fandaniel had to rely on very advanced tech... and he has experience with such things, given he was an Ascian and resurrected Xande himself.

As for the shoulder charge... I thought it was awesome and hilarious, given the context... then I just frown thinking of how ridiculous it would be with a Lalafel. My sibling just finished the MSQ two days ago and was laughing while questioning how her popoto person could possibly punch Zenos in the face.

EDIT: Should be clear and say I still think it would be hilarious in a different situation. :P

*Que “This boy is a bottom”*

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Originally Posted by Jirah

*Que “This boy is a bottom”*

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If you mean Zenos... uh, what? What would that even have to do with anything? If you meant me; no, honey, and I'm a women. :P

What a weird post...

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Yeah, as much as I hate to admit it after that awesome fight, I think they actually finally sent him to Valhalla.

My only regret is they didn’t nail his usage until Endwalker. He could’ve been hilarious in Shadowbringers.

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I think they basically left the ending of Zenos open just in case they do decide to bring him back. Otherwise they could have shown a more definite ending to him, like maybe his body slowly turning into aether etc., if they really are done with him. But just like our character they just left him there and never really bothered to show what happened after.

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Originally Posted by Garet

I think they basically left the ending of Zenos open just in case they do decide to bring him back. Otherwise they could have shown a more definite ending to him, like maybe his body slowly turning into aether etc., if they really are done with him. But just like our character they just left him there and never really bothered to show what happened after.

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Maybe, but why bother? Of all potential villians, I don't think Zenos is capable of intimidation. He could kill every Scion and my reaction would be more along the lines of, "what took you so long?"

Heck, even his cat-dropping-a-dead-mouse-at-my-feet gift of saying everyone's dead as a gift to me earned little more than an eyeroll. Oh Zenos! <jingle plays>

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Maybe, but why bother? Of all potential villians, I don't think Zenos is capable of intimidation. He could kill every Scion and my reaction would be more along the lines of, "what took you so long?"

Heck, even his cat-dropping-a-dead-mouse-at-my-feet gift of saying everyone's dead as a gift to me earned little more than an eyeroll. Oh Zenos! <jingle plays>

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This is what makes him an interesting character. He is not purely evil. He could have indeed killed off a lot of the characters if he wanted to or just let black rose decimate the world instead of stopping it. He is not a one sided villain. Hence a lot of people finds him interesting.

For me it would be interesting how zenos could develop after he got the fight he wanted. Would he crave more or would he find another path to find meaning for his life, and what that path would entail. Therefore I really hope he comes back.

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Originally Posted by Garet

This is what makes him an interesting character. He is not purely evil. He could have indeed killed off a lot of the characters if he wanted to or just let black rose decimate the world instead of stopping it. He is not a one sided villain. Hence a lot of people finds him interesting.

For me it would be interesting how zenos could develop after he got the fight he wanted. Would he crave more or would he find another path to find meaning for his life, and what that path would entail. Therefore I really hope he comes back.

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By the same token, why WOULD he come back if he got what he wanted? Is it really sensible for him to have his life’s meaning be round three?

He’s beyond redemption, so does he offer anything of value beyond comic relief? I mean, that’s fine but hardly compelling or in short supply.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

By the same token, why WOULD he come back if he got what he wanted? Is it really sensible for him to have his life’s meaning be round three?

He’s beyond redemption, so does he offer anything of value beyond comic relief? I mean, that’s fine but hardly compelling or in short supply.

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There's already a list of bad guys that have done really bad things and suddenly have a redemption arc and become one of the good guys. Gaius, Estinien(kinda sorta if you take the body stealing arc into account), and Fordola come to mind.

One thing i liked about the last couple of exchange with Zenos it gives players the semblance of deciding what kind of relationship with you had with him. While it could be portrayed as being beyond redemption in one prompt giving a Guts Vs. Griffith feeling to the last fight another prompt had you agree with him and gave the final fight a Mugen vs Jin feeling. While they would have to give a really good reason for him to come back from the edge of the universe and probably could be done in a Final Fantasy setting, it is possible for them to give him a face turn.

If we want to continue with Endwalker's FF 4 vibes he could be our Kain.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

By the same token, why WOULD he come back if he got what he wanted? Is it really sensible for him to have his life’s meaning be round three?

He’s beyond redemption, so does he offer anything of value beyond comic relief? I mean, that’s fine but hardly compelling or in short supply.

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What makes him beyond redemption? He hasn’t killed any of the Scions. Just curious. I find him to be a very neutral character. He literally does not care about anything but himself-he didn’t care about the Final Days, just that he’d get his fight. I don’t see him as a character with malicious motives, just extremely selfish. In SB, he was basically just following his father’s orders. The only thing that changes is, he finally starts to care about us/our life/who we are at the ending. You don’t really just start this development and drop it.

The fact that they’ve dragged on his character for 3 expansions, kinda proves they have some plans for him. When have they done this with a villain before? Only with the Ascians, and it took about 10 years for them to be properly developed. I reallyyyy think this will turn into an Emet Selch/Elidibus thing-now that they’ve gotten more development people suddenly love them when no one really cared for the Ascians before

He’s very typical anime antihero/blood knight. He also reminds me of Fray from DRK quests…. he represents our dark mirror/dark side. Now that we’re “going back to our roots as mere adventurer” I’m pretty sure they want to have Zenos be a part of this, the dude who is the only person who sees us as an adventurer at all….

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Originally Posted by nighttimebunny

What makes him beyond redemption? He hasn’t killed any of the Scions. Just curious. I find him to be a very neutral character. He literally does not care about anything but himself-he didn’t care about the Final Days, just that he’d get his fight. I don’t see him as a character with malicious motives, just extremely selfish. In SB, he was basically just following his father’s orders. The only thing that changes is, he finally starts to care about us/our life/who we are at the ending. You don’t really just start this development and drop it.

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He ran two nations as ffa arenas only because he was bored, and hired scientists to do whatever to make super humans...

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

He ran two nations as ffa arenas only because he was bored, and hired scientists to do whatever to make super humans...

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Big deal. That's progressive ;)

I will mention 2 other points in support of him returning...

Even though it was back in Stormblood, his mention of binding with a primal is of great note. Until Endwalker, when we basically realize that we have been serving a primal all along, we saw primals as a threat to the world and sought to eliminate them. Now we are using them to help us, and his knowledge of binding them for our bidding, I believe could come in handy down the road.

Also his fabricated Echo has not been put to full use. We've got a couple of soldiers running around with it, as well as Zenos himself, but being the master-mind behind it all, it would be a shame for him to die off before it comes to full fruition.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

He ran two nations as ffa arenas only because he was bored, and hired scientists to do whatever to make super humans...

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That reminds me… We still don’t know what experiment was done on him by Emet Selch as a child (Fandaniel hints it may have been what caused the dreams of the Final Days.) Considering what Emet did to Vauthry… i’m going to assume it was messed up. He gave the Resonant to Fordola, someone he clearly likes. His brain is so messed up he truly sees these things as a gift. I just want to know the truth about Zenos, because we don’t know everything yet.

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Originally Posted by Faust1105

I will mention 2 other points in support of him returning...

Even though it was back in Stormblood, his mention of binding with a primal is of great note. Until Endwalker, when we basically realize that we have been serving a primal all along, we saw primals as a threat to the world and sought to eliminate them. Now we are using them to help us, and his knowledge of binding them for our bidding, I believe could come in handy down the road.

Also his fabricated Echo has not been put to full use. We've got a couple of soldiers running around with it, as well as Zenos himself, but being the master-mind behind it all, it would be a shame for him to die off before it comes to full fruition.

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I think Zenos is a full on Ascian at this point, at least according to several characters, and they can’t be killed without white auracite. Instead of killing him using this, i’d much rather put his talent/strength to good use :)

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

If we want to continue with Endwalker's FF 4 vibes he could be our Kain.

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This. I think in many ways Kain kept Cecil honest in IV so to speak. There are so many people who look up to us as the WoL or only see us as that. Even Estinien views us like this. A place I could see Zenos having is our reality check. Either reminding us we are not all that if we get full of ourselves, or someone who just treats us like a normal person when we need it. He was also funnily enough the only person who never doubted we could defeat the Endsinger. Rolling up at the end "What? It's not dead yet? Slacker"

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This. I think in many ways Kain kept Cecil honest in IV so to speak. There are so many people who look up to us as the WoL or only see us as that. Even Estinien views us like this. A place I could see Zenos having is our reality check. Either reminding us we are not all that if we get full of ourselves, or someone who just treats us like a normal person when we need it. He was also funnily enough the only person who never doubted we could defeat the Endsinger. Rolling up at the end "What? It's not dead yet? Slacker"

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This just reminds me of daydreaming about Fordola being the ultimate therapist. We wouldn't enjoy the experience, but she'd certainly set us straight.

the only reason i like zenos is because when confronted about all the atrocities he had committed he more or less said "... yes? i don't remember denying this. what, do you want me to lie so you can sleep at night?"

the complete and utter lack of denial was good even if i found him more like a creepy stalker who couldn't catch a hint rather than any actual rival.

also one of his attacks is called 'tryst' which in my opinion makes him the villainous bisexual icon the star both needs and deserves.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This. I think in many ways Kain kept Cecil honest in IV so to speak. There are so many people who look up to us as the WoL or only see us as that. Even Estinien views us like this. A place I could see Zenos having is our reality check. Either reminding us we are not all that if we get full of ourselves, or someone who just treats us like a normal person when we need it. He was also funnily enough the only person who never doubted we could defeat the Endsinger. Rolling up at the end "What? It's not dead yet? Slacker"

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Agree haha. I was like "Ok Zenos just wait your turn geeez" since he is basically saying "Please get on with your job already so we can have that talk" lolz

The kain reference ain't bad as well since like Kain who helped Cecil from time to time even when he was brainwashed, Zenos also did that in some way. Stopping Black Rose and distracting Meteion to give us enough time to recover :)

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

Hm, I thought Emet-Selch was creepier and more annoying when he followed us through the First. I'd choose Zenos as my stalker any day. :P Also, in SB it was the Scions who stalked Zenos, lol.

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emet-selch felt more like the lovechild of Q from star trek combined with jack sparrow and later on you find out a lot of that was simply due to zodiark's influence combined with the fact that he -tried- to hang out with the gross little squidgy mortals only for them to murder his kid.