What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Agreed. I don't think it was a particularly satisfying trial, either. The first phase is decent though the second phase consisting of the boss almost exclusively just flailing about did very little for me.

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It's probably a nice reprieve for those whose nerves were already frayed by the time the CS hit. lol. But yeah, 40% HP worth of wing swishing and basic aoe dodge/heal was a unique call. :X

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

Her voice is really creepy, her personality is the same "pathetic girl" trope you see in a lot of animes/games (Colette from Tales of Symphonia springs to mind). As soon as I saw her, I thought... Yeah, this girl is going to be a villain. They may not being objectifying but why have a character like that in the game at all? I found her creepy and rather annoying in Elpis. Her plot arc is essentially "becoming an emo because the universe isn't what you want it to be". Its really shallow if I'm honest... plus she isn't wearing any trousers.

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I had a rather similar impression of her. Can't say I enjoyed the trial with her much, either.

@OP

The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy - the OP version


A long time ago some emo dark elf wanted to be the boss . so he made some rings and they enthrall people somehow


The rings ruin stuff then they have to go stop the evil elf because stuff is bad so they realise to kill the evil they need to kill the elf with the master alexa ring that knows all controls all so they go to mordor the place you can breathe in ok but centuries later you cant for plot reasons


They kill the big bad and the human king dies but his son cuts the fingers off the bad elf and stuff his kingky finger into the dark alexa elf ring whilst the bad elf blows up and kills everyone well noty quite but its loads


Some elf lord takes the kings son up the mountain to the BBQ hall of dark lords and demands the kings son drop the ring into the fire , doesnt do anything when the kings son refiuses and lets the son walk away thusly not ending the reign of alexa and her all seeing all knowing powerful eye


Along the way the dirty elf ring still has power and it uses bluetooth and wifi to reconnect to amazon AWS but it cant so it tries to subdue humans instead and it works


Everyone wants the filthy ring and eventually the new king is killed and the ring leaps off his hand and decides to drown itself instead thusly delaying the big bezos reconnect



many centuries past and ther stuff happens


yade yadda......




etc etc



See we top can make a huge epic story about journey , struggle and strife sound as basic as you made the whole end of FF14 saga be

This expansion was a major letdown for me in the overall ending story of ARR and I found it to be incredibly weak following ShB. It what it is, not every expansion in a game can be a home run.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I dont see how theyre really misguided. This entire 8-10 year arc has been dubbed the Hydaelyn AND ZODIARK arc. Yet, the heart of Zodiark is dealt with within 2 patches(one technically) and zodiark himself is dealt with early on in the expansion that is supposed to be tying up the arc. His heart is then also killed off within 5 minutes. Meanwhile weve had hydaelyn talking in our ear since the beginning of the game and venat had an entire arc in elpis. Not to mention Venat and Hydaelyn being painted as the savior and Zodiark/Elidibus getting basically 0 credit.I think it wouldve been far more interesting to see more of Elidibus along with Zodiark together much how we saw hydaelyn numerous times.Instead he was just used as a prop and killed off swiftly. I think its especially sad when you have a character like Zenos who outlived such important and prominent characters all for him to not even get any lore built on his past plot points(why hes so strong, his memories of the final days etc etc.)

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I'll hold off judgement for now. Pandaemonium has potential for undoing all of these complaints.

I, at least, was satisfied with the time given to Elidibus in 5.3. Hydaelyn has said plenty to us throughout the story, but not much meaningful until we speak to Venat in Elpis.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Agreed. I don't think it was a particularly satisfying trial, either. The first phase is decent though the second phase consisting of the boss almost exclusively just flailing about did very little for me.

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I thought this was incredibly good visual storytelling. In the first phase, she's cool, calm, detached, and collected.

This totally changes in the second stage. She's panicking at that point. She's the sum total of the despair of all those civilizations. They confronted their ends and couldn't handle it. She says things like "We can't suffer that again". She's flailing out like that because she's scared. I saw someone mention the meaning of her attacks before, too. Telos apparently means purpose. Telomania means obsession with purpose. You're going to cause the universe to live on and there will be more pain and suffering and she's desperate to stop you.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

He wouldn't have been much. He was created to be a tool to stop the Final Days and without Elidibus as his heart, he was basically just a mindless zombie.

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Thats my point though, it didnt need to be that way, we could easily have gone and retriebved elidibus and popped him back into Zodiark. Or they could have simply had his departure meant Zodiark was weaker and the swimming souls within became his "core" There were a lot of options.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I thought this was incredibly good visual storytelling. In the first phase, she's cool, calm, detached, and collected.

This totally changes in the second stage. She's panicking at that point. She's the sum total of the despair of all those civilizations. They confronted their ends and couldn't handle it. She says things like "We can't suffer that again". She's flailing out like that because she's scared. I saw someone mention the meaning of her attacks before, too. Telos apparently means purpose. Telomania means obsession with purpose. You're going to cause the universe to live on and there will be more pain and suffering and she's desperate to stop you.

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Its pretty much the same thing with Thordan. After the Huge Knights of the Round Attack Phase (Totally Boss Callback Reference)
Thordan thought that would be your undoing, your Death. But because you survived, its like...what do I do now? Thats All I had! A Thousand Years of Prayer to obtain such power and it wasn't enough!??
-Flails because he doesn't know what to do-

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I thought this was incredibly good visual storytelling. In the first phase, she's cool, calm, detached, and collected.

This totally changes in the second stage. She's panicking at that point. She's the sum total of the despair of all those civilizations. They confronted their ends and couldn't handle it. She says things like "We can't suffer that again". She's flailing out like that because she's scared. I saw someone mention the meaning of her attacks before, too. Telos apparently means purpose. Telomania means obsession with purpose. You're going to cause the universe to live on and there will be more pain and suffering and she's desperate to stop you.

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Telos means the same as "end" and can be used in a similar manner, either to denote purpose (e.g. in a word like teleological) or end in the usual sense (hence, Telophoroi.)

I'll just throw my 2 cents in here. And I would like to say, this is really my personal opinion, nothing else.

I liked the story for what it was meant to do, aka end the Zodiark/Hydaelyn saga.

But outside of that ? It really felt lackluster, rushed and average at best, the pacing was really all over the place. But what ever, I overall got what I paid for.
This has also a lot to do with me really getting tired of this world savior role and I hope that the implications from the story show true that we return to just being a "normal" (as a savior of the universe can be) adventurer.

I

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Agreed. I don't think it was a particularly satisfying trial, either. The first phase is decent though the second phase consisting of the boss almost exclusively just flailing about did very little for me.

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While I did think it hilarious that her response to us surviving her ultimate is to just immediately cast it again, the whole "final boss flails/spams one attack through the last phase" thing does get old. We've already seen it with Thordan, Eden Shiva, Hades.....hell, one could even say Lahabrea's whole "fight" back in Praetorium was nothing BUT this, he does so little damage.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial
• The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair
• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

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Did you skip the cutscenes? They even show Venat trying to talk the ancients out of it before deciding to go through with the sundering.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Did you skip the cutscenes? They even show Venat trying to talk the ancients out of it before deciding to go through with the sundering.

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Yes but this was post final days. She easily could’ve told everyone before this and prevent the days from even coming to fruition. She instead kept it a secret. Even her Anamnesis dialogue suggests her followers didn’t even know what her actual plan consisted of nor that it would end in their own demise.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Its pretty much the same thing with Thordan. After the Huge Knights of the Round Attack Phase (Totally Boss Callback Reference)
Thordan thought that would be your undoing, your Death. But because you survived, its like...what do I do now? Thats All I had! A Thousand Years of Prayer to obtain such power and it wasn't enough!??
-Flails because he doesn't know what to do-

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Hades, too, and I enjoy the subtle differences. Thordan it's like "I don't know what to do, I'm going to swat you like a fly"

Hades was desperately trying to hold onto the dream he'd had for thousands of years. You winning meant that dream would never happen.

Endsinger is desperately trying to save everyone from the despair she (and thus all those civilizations) gave into.

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Originally Posted by Escalon

I'll just throw my 2 cents in here. And I would like to say, this is really my personal opinion, nothing else.

I liked the story for what it was meant to do, aka end the Zodiark/Hydaelyn saga.

But outside of that ? It really felt lackluster, rushed and average at best, the pacing was really all over the place. But what ever, I overall got what I paid for.
This has also a lot to do with me really getting tired of this world savior role and I hope that the implications from the story show true that we return to just being a "normal" (as a savior of the universe can be) adventurer.

I

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Same; I don't think I'd consider it average though. I'd say it was still an excellent expansion that had every disadvantage thrown at it: it followed Shadowbringers, it was made during an unprecedented pandemic, and it was an ending to a beloved story. Any one of these would make telling a story difficult, but Endwalker had to deal with all three at the same time.

Personally, I can admit it could have used more time to snip away at certain parts. Garlemald might have gotten a little too dark for me, even if the situation is understandably dark. I don't like how I knew (though I appreciated the misdirection) the Sharlayans were working on an "ark" from the first. I think it can't stand on its own without the other expansions (as, say, Heavensward or Shadowbringers can) to give it context. I think the most compelling boss from a gameplay perspective is the second one, though I enjoyed all three and loved the last boss' design.

But even after all of that, I think it's my favorite expansion. Not only because of the spectacle -- which has points unmatched anywhere else in the story -- but because of the smaller moments: quiet time alone with characters we've known for a decade (and I'll go so far as to forgive plot armor in exchange for those moments), ridiculous situations I never thought I'd see in the game (riding Zenos to fight the last boss so we can have one final fight at the edge of the universe) and exploring the new the places added with this expansion (Radz is, by far, my favorite endgame hub along with Thavnair being an absolute delight). Also, Elpis and Ultima Thule are cool as hell. Ea would be an amazing beast tribe, but so would literally everything in Thule.

Above all, I'm excited because I don't know where we go from here. We finally have a clean break in the story; we can finally go anywhere at any time and do anything. We have new mysteries (of Dynamis, Pandaemonium, Emet's sizzlereel of teasers, and the new-old mystery of the Twelve). The closest to this we've had is traveling to the First for Shadowbringers, but even that was hamstrung by its reliance on the current arc. Coming back to the Source after the dealings on the First felt like a bit of a chore to me, but now I'm finally finally excited to be back on the Source.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Hades, too, and I enjoy the subtle differences. Thordan it's like "I don't know what to do, I'm going to swat you like a fly"

Hades was desperately trying to hold onto the dream he'd had for thousands of years. You winning meant that dream would never happen.

Endsinger is desperately trying to save everyone from the despair she (and thus all those civilizations) gave into.

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I like all 3. I think they are Great.
But I think Hades is the Outlier, because he has One Final Desperation Attack thats a Final DPS Check; Where he casts Black Cauldron. And Ive seen it maybe Once because the group failed the QTE moment and couldnt recover XD
(and I could be wrong because I didnt let Endsinger get to the point that she might have a Final DPS check.)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes but this was post final days. She easily could’ve told everyone before this and prevent the days from even coming to fruition. She instead kept it a secret. Even her Anamnesis dialogue suggests her followers didn’t even know what her actual plan consisted of nor that it would end in their own demise.

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Telling everyone what she knew after the WoL involvement would change the entire history of the game and involvement of the WoL.
Pre WoL, Hydaelyn sundered Zodiark and created the Source and the 14 shards because self sacrifice to keep what the Ancients had was bad.
Post WoL, its the same thing, just with the added bonus of suffering is best for life to have meaning.
Lahabrea was right, the root of the corruption is Hydaelyn.

Which I don't think is the OPs point. I think its because much like ARR and other expansions the story wasn't centered around the WoL/WoD, it again was based on the Ancients and their actions. Which works to provide the exposition needed to end the total story of ARR and Hydaelyn but makes for a pretty boring story.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Telling everyone what she knew after the WoL involvement would change the entire history of the game and involvement of the WoL.
Pre WoL, Hydaelyn sundered Zodiark and created the Source and the 14 shards because self sacrifice to keep what the Ancients had was bad.
Post WoL, its the same thing, just with the added bonus of suffering is best for life to have meaning.
Lahabrea was right, the root of the corruption is Hydaelyn.

Which I don't think is the OPs point. I think its because much like ARR and other expansions the story wasn't centered around the WoL/WoD, it again was based on the Ancients and their actions. Which works to provide the exposition needed to end the total story of ARR and Hydaelyn but makes for a pretty boring story.

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That’s what i mean though. They had to involve all of this convoluted time travel to try and frame the sundering as semi-right when in reality it just isn’t. There’s little reasoning for her to have actually done it when they could’ve combatted meteion themselves, and it’s not like the ancients were without suffering. We’re shown numerous times how they suffered pre final days and even pandaemonium gives more insight on that, so that whole theme just comes off as pretty shoddy as well.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes but this was post final days. She easily could’ve told everyone before this and prevent the days from even coming to fruition. She instead kept it a secret. Even her Anamnesis dialogue suggests her followers didn’t even know what her actual plan consisted of nor that it would end in their own demise.

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Walk into a room full of people tomorrow and try to explain to them the end of the workd us gonna happen in an unknown amount of time and get them to fully cooperate with you. Tell us how well that goes l o l

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Snip~ Snip~

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WARNING : THERE ARE HEAVY SPOILERS IN THIS POST!!! DO NOT READ IF YOU DID NOT FINISH THE STORY OF EW!!!!

I will try to elaborate about why I think its not that great.

First, the whole setting is really shying away from what this game was before. Traveling to the past like its nothing? Casually teleporting to the Moon that is also an Spaceship and walking there like its nothing? Flying a space ship to the literal edge of space ? Casually taking an elevator down to the literal center of the Lifestream and all Aether ? We are flying to the edge of the universe to fight a "Bird" that for what ever reason can manipulate this absolutely new concept we never heard before on a cosmic scale and wipe whole planets with it.

Everything just feels like its soo far-fetched its not even funny.

The pacing was also all over the place, like right, we are flying to the edge of the universe to fight a "bird", but before that lets just haul around boxes. A lot of quest did not even make sense, like the "famous-infamous" In the Cold quest, that whole quest could be literally removed and it would have done nothing to change the narrative or the progress of the story, all it was meant to do is to use a cheap trick to inflict the player with this "OHNONONO" fear and of course nothing happened, also why did Zenos just walked there ? Fandaniel literally can teleport people around. And thats just one of a lot of examples.

I should note, I did not like ShB, not because it was bad, far from it, I loved the lore we got to know, but because it started to become also quite farfetched, but at least there we struggles with it, unlike in EW where we just can do anything without any problems.

I loved HW and StB since it felt grounded, not this farfetched story about time travel, different dimensions etc. And in terms of overall feel and story, I rank them over ShB and EW.

Not to mention, the whole quality of the game is starting to tank (NOTE: In my personal view). We get zones that are beyond boring, each zone gets 1 to 3 hubs with just nothing in between, there is literally nothing to discover since everything feels flat. ARR zones, even after 8 years, I find interesting places I have not noticed before or were just nicely hidden.

Dungeons dont feel as dungeons but just a story point, a thing we need to do to pass to a place where we need to be. Sure, this was even the case in the dungeons before, but they actually felt like dungeons (we are talking mainly ARR, HW, StB, ShB had like 2) The Dungeons dont need to be tons of corridors and places to explore, but at least give us the feeling that its way bigger than it really is. I give an great example of this, comapre The Swallows's Compass a dungeon from StB to probably closest is Ktisis Hyperboreia and you will see what I mean.


Remember the time where you had vendors who sold different things ? Where you had to travel to buy certain things ? And everything was not sold at 1 vendor ? Was it more tedious ? Yes, but it felt like an living, breathing world. Now its just HUB to HUB.

Thavnair according to the artworks should be such a huge and imposing city, question is, is it really ? Does it feel like a city compared to Ul'dah, Ishgard, Limsa Lominsa, Kugane ? Same can be said about Sharlayan.

I honestly wish that SE will return to the time of ARR and HW with the quality of things that are not just the story but the zones, dungeons, locations and small things like that. Its an MMO, one should feel to be part of a big breathing living world, a world one wants to explore, a world where even after 8 years one can find interesting places.

Oke, this became waaaaay more longwinded than I intended it to be, so I hope you can forgive me for that.
And as said, all those things are only my personal view, I fully understand others people view points about the story and other things.

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Originally Posted by Escalon

[B][COLOR="darkred"]chopchop.

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What I get from this is I like Endwalker for the same reasons you dislike it. I can see it being a polarizing expansion.

I think where we can find common ground is what comes next: we're simply an adventurer again. We've done the crazy stuff, and it's time to just explore.

I still love exploring the ARR zones, too! Definitely give Thav another chance, though; I've found places in both Radz and the "proper" Thav I completely missed my initial time through!

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Snip~ Snip~

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Oh fully agree and I'm about 100x times pumped about what comes next, not gonna lie. EW might have sucked for me, but I like I think the leads are pointing. And Thavnair I explored plenty, I consider myself an proper fisher in this game, so I explored every nook and cranny for fishing spots!

There were parts I liked and parts I didn't like.

Zodiark goes down a little easier than I would have liked.
And the fact that the entire horrible situation for the multiverse was caused by an emo birdgirl that was a completely new NPC was a little disappointing. Such a big plot element should have been the result of an established character.

Otherwise I enjoyed many elements of the plot.

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Originally Posted by Mezzoforte

Walk into a room full of people tomorrow and try to explain to them the end of the workd us gonna happen in an unknown amount of time and get them to fully cooperate with you. Tell us how well that goes l o l

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You’re oversimplifying the circumstances. Hades knew he was mind wiped, so did Hythlo, and both agreed no matter how crazy the claim may be, they must still listen and research due to their duty to the star. She could tell both of them and start from there. Not to mention she was a previous convocation member and she was friends with two people who were both offered convocation spots(one of them accepting said offer).

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial

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He was actually a very big threat. If he was freed, the world would be in extreme jeopardy, as given all the other things that were going on; Hydaelyn's weakened state, the End of Days, the inhabitants of Etherys would've been wiped out. It became impossible to keep dragging out Zodiark's arc through an entire expansion, which wouldn't make sense considering every Ascian, aside from a heavily corrupted/fragmentated Fandaniel, was dead.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair

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It's stated that the worlds Meteion visited, the inhabitants were either long dead or coveting death. Meteion began exterminating races as a kindness. It's a good character, with solid motivations for doing what she did/was doing.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there

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She didn't gamble with the inhabitants of the now Sundered world. We, the PC, had already travelled back in time and told her about the Sundered world's beauty and our adventures in said world. She knew the inhabitants could overcome despair because she met us. Hydaelyn knew of the events leading up to when we went back to the past, because we told her on the bridge in the sky. That's where he knowledge ends. From the moment we return to the present, Hydaelyn has no knowledge whatsoever about what comes next. This is why Hydaelyn fought us, to test both our strength and resolve, and to see that we, the inhabitants of Etherys, can survive on our own without her guiding hand.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

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I don't understand the worship of ShB. Bare in mind, I only started playing FFXIV on the 25th of September last year (So 3 and a half months ago) and I ran through the entire MSQs of all expansions (With Endwalker being around 2 days after release) and honestly ShBs seems the weakest to me. There was no "Oh shit" moment like in Heavensward when your character arrives on a battlefield atop a First Brood (Hraesvelgr), hops off it's back and calmly walks towards Nidhogg while everyone else ran away, showing the dichotomy of the Warrior of Light and ordinary people; They run away from danger and death whereas we run towards it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s what i mean though. They had to involve all of this convoluted time travel to try and frame the sundering as semi-right when in reality it just isn’t. There’s little reasoning for her to have actually done it when they could’ve combatted meteion themselves, and it’s not like the ancients were without suffering. We’re shown numerous times how they suffered pre final days and even pandaemonium gives more insight on that, so that whole theme just comes off as pretty shoddy as well.

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Hydaelyns actions were because she didn't think Zodiark would work, and it came at the cost of their lives. She had no plan other then how best do I ensure survival of life, and if it happens again how can life escape pre WoL.
Then post WoL nothing changed, except now we now the cause of the Final Days and what to kill to make it stop. So it gave another option other than flee from the fee-fees.
The traveling to Elpis was nothing more than exposition in what is largely an exposition heavy story as all it really did was explain what caused the Final Days in a convoluted manner. And to later explain the Hermes, Fandaniel, Amon and Allegan connection.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial
• The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair
• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

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Yeah, I was completely unimpressed with the EW story.

But it was packed with tons of emotional manipulation that made people cry, therefore everyone claims it was awesome.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Yeah, I was completely unimpressed with the EW story.

But it was packed with tons of emotional manipulation that made people cry, therefore everyone claims it was awesome.

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The thing is I cried during ARR, I cried during HW, SB, and ShB. EndWalker? No. Not one tear was shed. Who or what, was I supposed to cry for? The girl in the green dress who's quest was super annoying to do? Hermes who cared about soulless beasts, but suddenly went "everyone should just die."

Surprisingly, I came really close to crying for the Elephant guy carrying the baby through the forest while fighting his own fears and getting cornered by the beasts. Really close there. If only there was more moments like that and the pacing was done better.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

The thing is I cried during ARR, I cried during HW, SB, and ShB. EndWalker? No. Not one tear was shed. Who or what, was I supposed to cry for? The girl in the green dress who's quest was super annoying to do? Hermes who cared about soulless beasts, but suddenly went "everyone should just die."

Surprisingly, I came really close to crying for the Elephant guy carrying the baby through the forest while fighting his own fears and getting cornered by the beasts. Really close there. If only there was more moments like that and the pacing was done better.

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The single biggest one that comes to mind is "Voices from the past". Lets have some ghosts play soundbites of dead characters that people loved.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Hydaelyns actions were because she didn't think Zodiark would work, and it came at the cost of their lives. She had no plan other then how best do I ensure survival of life, and if it happens again how can life escape pre WoL.
Then post WoL nothing changed, except now we now the cause of the Final Days and what to kill to make it stop. So it gave another option other than flee from the fee-fees.
The traveling to Elpis was nothing more than exposition in what is largely an exposition heavy story as all it really did was explain what caused the Final Days in a convoluted manner. And to later explain the Hermes, Fandaniel, Amon and Allegan connection.

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Except we’re later told that’s not exactly what it was. Venat’s whole thing was she didn’t think the Ancients could overcome despair/suffering and defeat Meteion. She knew Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution, we’re shown this in Anamnesis. However the problem here is she didn’t even give the ancients a valid chance. She gave up on them in favor of someone she had only just met. We know they can manipulate Dynamis, we know that she could in some way get through to Emet. She just chose not to. If they had at least had her mind wiped then her actions and the sundering would make a bit more sense as at that point it would be more an act of pure desperation and unknowingness.

TBH I think that was one of the problems I didn't like with the Elpis thing.

We know from Graha Tia that you can time travel to an alternate timeline past. His future we are dead so the time loop didn't happen yet everything played out the same. They could of just had us going back causing a split so that any changes (Emet and co finding out the cause then doing something about it) would not of changed our future. It would of let them let us get exposition while just having the alternate timeline be a Graha situation where we saved that periods ancients regardless of it not effecting our own present.

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Originally Posted by truemagus

TBH I think that was one of the problems I didn't like with the Elpis thing.

We know from Graha Tia that you can time travel to an alternate timeline past. His future we are dead so the time loop didn't happen yet everything played out the same. They could of just had us going back causing a split so that any changes (Emet and co finding out the cause then doing something about it) would not of changed our future. It would of let them let us get exposition while just having the alternate timeline be a Graha situation where we saved that periods ancients regardless of it not effecting our own present.

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You're right, it is the time aspect that ultimately causes the issues a lot of people had with the story, and in particular, the requirement to maintain it. Just a consequence of using time travel to explain the story, rather than some other method (e.g. more advanced control of the Echo's ability to peer in the past.) Of course they probably don't want to veer off into an AU with the ancient world restored (at least not yet), so they have to commit to the current timeline, but it's still frustrating and felt convoluted and forced.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

The single biggest one that comes to mind is "Voices from the past". Lets have some ghosts play soundbites of dead characters that people loved.

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For me there were just two sequences which I found sad, and that is the ancients caught in a limbo in Zodiark wandering around him, where I was glad that you could tell her Watcher that you refuse to banish them, and the other one being the fate of the Dragonstar and the despondent shades lingering there. Beyond that? There was an awful lot of attempted tear-jerking, but not much I cared about.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except we’re later told that’s not exactly what it was. Venat’s whole thing was she didn’t think the Ancients could overcome despair/suffering and defeat Meteion. She knew Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution, we’re shown this in Anamnesis. However the problem here is she didn’t even give the ancients a valid chance. She gave up on them in favor of someone she had only just met. We know they can manipulate Dynamis, we know that she could in some way get through to Emet. She just chose not to. If they had at least had her mind wiped then her actions and the sundering would make a bit more sense as at that point it would be more an act of pure desperation and unknowingness.

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Yeah, the poster here made a good discussion on why her reasons don't really stack up - without the requirement to maintain the timeline, it falls apart IMO.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

The thing is I cried during ARR, I cried during HW, SB, and ShB. EndWalker? No. Not one tear was shed. Who or what, was I supposed to cry for? The girl in the green dress who's quest was super annoying to do? Hermes who cared about soulless beasts, but suddenly went "everyone should just die."

Surprisingly, I came really close to crying for the Elephant guy carrying the baby through the forest while fighting his own fears and getting cornered by the beasts. Really close there. If only there was more moments like that and the pacing was done better.

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Hermes point was to hold mankind to the same indifference of suffering and death that it appeared to portray for the creations made. If mankind wishes to live it should do so without suffering for that is the ideal and value used to destroy these things I make.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Hermes point was to hold mankind to the same indifference of suffering and death that it appeared to portray for the creations made. If mankind wishes to live it should do so without suffering for that is the ideal and value used to destroy these things I make.

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But he's not even correct on that point. They weren't indifferent about it - we see that in sidequests in Elpis. His problem was that they applied a standard at all, i.e. permitting creations to persist only when they contributed to the betterment of the star. We see this with the lykaones, where he wishes them to live even if they were detrimental to the star's ecological balance. These are just arcane constructs in the end (even more abundantly clear with the sprites, where he discussed their impetus to exist), which might get a soul if they satisfy the star's criteria for doing so, and even then it'd just upgrade them to the equivalent of animals or monsters. Beings the sundered kill without a second thought, much as they send their own arcane constructs, like egi, to die for them. Moreover, he also had a problem with his mentor's decision to return to the star. None of what he said is going to stop us from going on hunt trains to reap souls to fuel our next relic, for example... His real beef was that existence itself ultimately entailed death. In the end, that entire line of thinking is discarded by Venat who is only concerned about answering his question for the purpose of surviving to drive back Meteion. He is little more than your typical pathological "empath" with a sadistic streak.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except we’re later told that’s not exactly what it was. Venat’s whole thing was she didn’t think the Ancients could overcome despair/suffering and defeat Meteion. She knew Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution, we’re shown this in Anamnesis. However the problem here is she didn’t even give the ancients a valid chance. She gave up on them in favor of someone she had only just met. We know they can manipulate Dynamis, we know that she could in some way get through to Emet. She just chose not to. If they had at least had her mind wiped then her actions and the sundering would make a bit more sense as at that point it would be more an act of pure desperation and unknowingness.

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She didn't know it wasn't a permanent solution, their is no way for her to know that in any other timeline than post WoL and even then she still wouldn't know because the post WoL events never unfolded, the pre WoL events did. What she acted upon was the possibility that Zodiark would fail to stop the Final Days and they would all be doomed, and in her cutscene she specifically says suffering is good to the guy begging to Zodiark to return to them what was being destroyed. And then she sundered Zodiark, and walked through a black time tunnel.
When you first get to Elpis Venat recognizes her marking you with her magicks and says something about a familiar presence, then when she meets WoL she recognizes it again and points out that its her magick in front of Hydro and Emet. She trusts the WoL because she recognizes her own power in them. Which is also why in prior expacs some Ascians refer to the WoL as Azem.
Also, not everyone can manipulate Dynamis and seems to be something rare or somewhat unique to Hermes. Dynamis was a little known thing as is explained by Hermes in regards to one of the conversations involving Meteion.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

But he's not even correct on that point. They weren't indifferent about it - we see that in sidequests in Elpis. His problem was that they applied a standard at all, i.e. permitting creations to persist only when they contributed to the betterment of the star. We see this with the lykaones, where he wishes them to live even if they were detrimental to the star's ecological balance. These are just arcane constructs in the end (even more abundantly clear with the sprites, where he discussed their impetus to exist), which might get a soul if they satisfy the star's criteria for doing so, and even then it'd just upgrade them to the equivalent of animals or monsters. Beings the sundered kill without a second thought, much as they send their own arcane constructs, like egi, to die for them. Moreover, he also had a problem with his mentor's decision to return to the star. None of what he said is going to stop us from going on hunt trains to reap souls to fuel our next relic, for example... His real beef was that existence itself ultimately entailed death. In the end, that entire line of thinking is discarded by Venat who is only concerned about answering his question for the purpose of surviving to drive back Meteion. He is little more than your typical pathological "empath" with a sadistic streak.

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Hermes doesn't need to be correct. He just needs to have a motivation for his actions. Motives that span Hermes, Amon, and Fandaniel as characters.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

She didn't know it wasn't a permanent solution, their is no way for her to know that in any other timeline than post WoL and even then she still wouldn't know because the post WoL events never unfolded, the pre WoL events did. What she acted upon was the possibility that Zodiark would fail to stop the Final Days and they would all be doomed, and in her cutscene she specifically says suffering is good to the guy begging to Zodiark to return to them what was being destroyed. And then she sundered Zodiark, and walked through a black time tunnel.
When you first get to Elpis Venat recognizes her marking you with her magicks and says something about a familiar presence, then when she meets WoL she recognizes it again and points out that its her magick in front of Hydro and Emet. She trusts the WoL because she recognizes her own power in them. Which is also why in prior expacs some Ascians refer to the WoL as Azem.
Also, not everyone can manipulate Dynamis and seems to be something rare or somewhat unique to Hermes. Dynamis was a little known thing as is explained by Hermes in regards to one of the conversations involving Meteion.

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Her and her followers literally say in Anamnesis that Zodiark isn’t a permanent solution. Sooo…unless she was lying, in which case that makes her look even more evil than she actually is lol.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Her and her followers literally say in Anamnesis that Zodiark isn’t a permanent solution. Sooo…unless she was lying, in which case that makes her look even more evil than she actually is lol.

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And when you beat genocidaelyn for her trial Yshtola says that when she sundered the source into the 14, decreasing the amount of aether they carry in their bodies, allowing them to overcome despair, to be able to face Meteion genocidaelyn responds:

"It is as you say. It was the trial I subjected mankind to that has lead to untold bloodshed and suffering. There was no justice or kindness in the tragedy I caused."
"When confronted with the Almighty Zodiark, my only recourse was to rend him and the world asunder, that his power be diminished for a time."
"And so it came to pass. Now you, my chosen, have surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me."
"I entrust the fate of the universe ... unto you."

And then proceeds to prattle on about the Mothercrystal. The later explanation in this cutscene actually mcguffins everything since it means that genocidaelyn created a time loop paradox.

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Originally Posted by Mezzoforte

Walk into a room full of people tomorrow and try to explain to them the end of the workd us gonna happen in an unknown amount of time and get them to fully cooperate with you. Tell us how well that goes l o l

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Indeed but we don't have echo that we could conveniently use to show them what had happened instead of having to explain it to them.

I wasn't a fan of the "dynamis" thing, because it wasn't foreshadowed properly as a "thing". Had they mentioned something about an "unknown force next to aether" in past expansions, this would have worked better.
That Zodiark was a Fandaniel sock puppet didn't work for me, either. There was potential there making the sundering an honest mistake born out of a misunderstanding, and Zodiark not being evil at all, and instead of freeing him being a catastrophe, he could have been the key to salvation for the planet. That would have been a much stronger plot twist.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

genocidaelyn

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Thanks, you made my day.