Is it just me, or are Expansions getting more brutal and depressing every time?

I think the way how Squeenix designs their Jobs and actually dumbs them down even further every time, is the most brutal thing of all.

You seem to have confused sadness with unhealthy. It IS very sad. That said, the message is a true one.
We have to learn to accept suffering and live with joy inside that can push back. Life is suffering along with all the good.
When you understand you will find relief and any pain and any loss, however great, can be weathered.

It is totally OK if that is too much for you, that just means you need to slow down tho. To me Endwalker was an explanation of all the suffering we had been through before this expansion felt uplifting and hopeful -- because it tells me this huge team of hundreds of people went through so much to give me a real message. Not just cheap entertainment, but an actual heart-to-heart depth between the team and the players.

Perhaps that's part of why it hits so hard; do you know about Soken's battle with cancer while working on the music? From his speech at the festival, you just know he really put his heart and soul into it -- and that means we are given a gift that goes past just a game. This storytelling is moving art showing what it is to live, to die, to grow.

Hang in there buddy. We may not have met but we are connected. Through the experience, the game, and in other ways as people on our planet. Take care.

imo you shouldn't aim to be sparing or heavy or moderate with death in the stories. It should fit what's happening.
The WoL has been through war after war, but usually we are spared the more grim scenes even with what we've been pushed through before. It doesn't even compare with events we know of from history, but this expansion just lightly brushes on such horrors. I think that is both appropriate and honestly a good experience.

Modern folks are truly far too soft if we can't even bare simulated tragedy. Think of it as a way to realize how precious real lives are before you lose those you love, so that you cherish them even more.

As long as the scions are in the Trust system they won't be killed.

Storywise there is buildup and then filler. The threat of Despair filled dynamis killing the inhabitants loses agency when met with the filler of the WoL time traveling into the past. IMO the entire planet should have been affected and reflected in every zone.

The Final Days bit in Thavnair was probably the best in the game before it dropped off hard.

It sounds like you need to seek professional help to deal with underlying problems that we cannot help you with.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Not dark enough, the Final Days phenomenon should have struck more than just Thavnair and Garlemald, and Terminus Beasts/Blasphemies should have been roaming older maps as special mobs. Also wish we got to actually see some of the Meteia go through their existential crises upon realizing that each and every star they visited was either dead, dying, or wishing for death, eventually leading to one of the Meteia having the bright idea of granting their wish.

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Unfortunately it was probably restricted to only those two zones for budget reasons.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The issue I have with the main cast always having such heavy plot armor is that the final area made this huge deal about their sacrifice so that we could progress—and then it was completely copped out by Y’shtola being like, “Yeah, you can just use Azem’s crystal to bring us back or whatever, but ideally don’t do that even though we all know you’ll be able to anyways”. It completely negated all the big speeches and “deaths”, and I think that could have been rectified by having at least one Scion be irrecoverable. Otherwise it had too much plot armor and lost a lot of significance to me.

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I know a lot of people bought into the full-on plot armor, but I remained "we can bring them back, but will we be able to bring all of them back" until the very end. I can see better ends for Y'shtola and Thancred on the First, but the rest of the party I'm not so sure about. Urianger, for example, had a solid close to his arc this expansion and he could've fallen down a hole and never come back.

That said, there were enough people expecting character deaths (myself included) that I'm not entirely sure just offing a scion would've surprised too many people. If anything, it was a bit more surprising for me for them all survive with all of the death flags throughout the narrative and marketing and then disband the Scions, each going off on their own adventures for now.

This expansion is literally about fighting depression. There's gonna be sad moments.

You also have a responsibility to yourself to create a mental wall between "this is fantasy sad" and "this is real life sad". Sad things in games can be sad and touching in the moment, and you can empathize with what the characters go through, but the instant you allow it to carry outside of the moment into real life is when it's a problem. This isn't real, these characters aren't real, and these scenarios aren't real. You owe it to yourself to separate these emotions.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Endwalker certainly lives up to the depressing implications of it theme and does not hold back.

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I feel like we played a VERY different expansion. There wasn't a moment in it where I felt things were dark and depressing. In fact, most of the expansion is spent clowning around with friends, doing silly errands, meeting space bunnies and observing their antics, etc.

Even when the apocalypse starts, nobody really seems to bothered by it. The only 'depressing' thing is seeing our resident winged doombringer turns into an emo edgelord and wants to kill everyone.

No and none of the expansions have been “dark”.

i think if someone who struggles with depression or anxiety , who already have these thoughts on daily basis (why am i alive , what's the point of life? ) and such would find this expansion to be depressing .

They are getting more depressing, yes.

It's depressing the lack of content and the more and more features that get cut with each new expansion.

I thought HW and ShB was awesome and not depressing... oh sure, they had sad moments of course, but they were epic. This one was ..... meh, nice fanservice getting to meet the Ancients... but overall it was a letdown....but it's the curse of the even number expansions! One good, one bad.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

I don't really have a detached, meta minded look at things. Seeing brutally violent acts happening to any living being, whether named or not, is still very disturbing to see.

I don't look at characters are mere pieces or tropes. If I see a character being eaten alive, that's a very brutal and disturbing thing.

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Amen my man, I hope and wish there are more players like you, who can appreciate the general world in its entirely rather than individually. But as you can see, a good chunk of players seem to be desperately need to see someone specifically close to them to die while what happened in the game world as inconsequential.

This expansion needed phasing to tell the post Zodiark story . The old ARR/HW/SB zones should have needed us to go fight Blashpemy FATE bosses , and monsters in a separate phased version of the old zones for EW MSQ players (red skies , star showers , lvl 90 EW monsters in low lvl maps destroyed inns/buildings on fire)

It would have been awesome to see old dungeons redone as 90 dungeons with blasphemous monsters inside as post (non trust) capstone blue quest dungeons , or trial boss maps

Hi, in my opinion you are right, in any case you do not have to read them all, press left mouse and you will go fast.
Of all the expansions this is the one i liked least, the only area where there are acceptable conversations are Elpis and Mare Lamentorum in my opinion.
p.s. the areas are all beautiful

Although I did enjoy this expansion- I have to say it gave me DQ Elusive Age vibes.... except that game had the flashback plays, the mysterious final character, and the time travel components down really well...it wasn't just a fanservice grab at nostalgia... they really gave it the effort it deserved.

I honestly feel like this was a FFXIV budget version of that game. Was it dark? Not too bad, really... but it just didn't give the time to things to really develop.. it was rushed and then ending felt a bit cheap.

TLDR: This expansion was ok, if you liked it, check out DQ Echoes of An Elusive Age... it was really fun and took this concept a LOT farther.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Storywise there is buildup and then filler. The threat of Despair filled dynamis killing the inhabitants loses agency when met with the filler of the WoL time traveling into the past. IMO the entire planet should have been affected and reflected in every zone.

The Final Days bit in Thavnair was probably the best in the game before it dropped off hard.

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The fact that it is not reflected in every zone is because "the final days" only hit first where the astral ether is less dense that why in other zone we have a really clear sky.

Some part of the story in endwalker seem like a deus ex machina but is not really like, everything that happen don't appear out of nowhere and are always because of the action of some character

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Originally Posted by lezard21

They are getting more depressing, yes.

It's depressing the lack of content and the more and more features that get cut with each new expansion.

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It's true he thinks that. He makes threads about it and even brings it into other threads like shown.

I don't have a problem with the Last Days being a thing only in certain regions -- they described the reason for it in the story itself.
The problem I see is the inconsistencies in the role quests, which had people turn in places like Ishgard or AlaMhigo, where this either shouldn't have happened at all, or on a much broader scale, with thousands of people turning into monsters.
This was a faux pas from a storytelling perspective.

In general, I didn't feel like the story was really depressing. Only Garlemald gave off that hopeless, post-apocalyptic vibe, and Garlemald itself looked like a map of the outskirts, not the city itself. If this was all that was Garlemald, the whole story doesn't make sense to begin with.

Not particularly. HW was a bit sad, SB was more tame, ShB was an emotional roller coaster, EW was meh.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Wish they would make this game M rated, so we could have story of actual depth.

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Most of the successful games you're probably thinking of are single-player RPGs.

M-rated MMORPGs are few and far between, mostly because an MMORPG with that rating isn't worth developing from an economic perspective. I understand Grand Theft Auto Online had about 220,000 players at peak. If you're going to tell me that the MMO add-on to the GTA5 story line has "actual depth" I'm going to laugh a lot.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Endwalker certainly lives up to the depressing implications of it theme and does not hold back.

Final Fantasy XIV has always had dark moments. But despite mostly only doing the MSQ and rushing. It took me until yesterday to complete it, even though I started in Early Access. Because I had to force myself to take breaks at multiple points in the story.

I'm an emotional wreck. Friends and family had had to ask why I look so sad and distraught. And when I tell them it's a video game, they tell me to stop playing it. I think I'm going crazy. I feel really empty and sad a lot in a way I didn't before starting this expansion.

There have always been really dark moments in the story. So I find it hard rationalizing why the brutal moments in Endwalker have been a last straw. I took a break for a couple days at a couple parts in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to feel better. But this has been by far the worst.

I honestly don't feel like I'm thinking straight when I play it. And I've been a complete sad emotional wreck throughout the journey. And not as my most mentally healthy, either.

I really hope this is the last time they get as dark as this somehow. Because this has been a very painful experience.

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Other Final Fantasy games have done the dark and dire phase better. If anything, FF games always do this but leave this ray of hope at the end of the tunnel that things will be restored to normal after the final confrontation with the big baddy. Want hopelessness? play Dark Souls, there's no happy ending at the end.

I think it's only natural for FFXIV. Like many other FF games, like FF6, 7, 8, 10, 13, 14...etc, lol! The more you learn about the world your playing in the darker it becomes until you finally reach the light at the end of the tunnel and everything starts to begin looking up again.

I am sorry and I don't want to hurt you but what fucking part of the story was remotely sad. There was no point where it fells like any one can be dead. At this point SE made the same problem DBZ. Death meaning nothing.
The onlly characters that was killed was 2 stupid girls we don't even know.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

There was no point where it fells like any one can be dead. At this point SE made the same problem DBZ. Death meaning nothing.
The onlly characters that was killed was 2 stupid girls we don't even know.

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Because sadness is not an emotion exclusive to death? Not all of us are obssessed with seeing people dying in order to feel sad.

I'd say the themes of existential nihilism and the reality that life will always have pain along the way can overbear some people who struggle with those things. Though, if that's the case then it's possibly for the best to either break from the game itself/skip it if it's affecting one too greatly. Since, it's not a healthy response to a piece of media and doing what one needs to do in order to stay well is going to always take precedence over experiencing a fiction.

But the resolution to those initial themes of the antagonists, is to provide an understanding that even when an existence ultimately might be meaningless in the grand scheme of a cosmos, universe etc... that simply finding meaning in the existence one does have is a worthy endeavor, and does not make it any less meaningless. And with the moments that do bring sadness/strife/struggle etc... there'll be moments that provide the opposite, and to take those moments graciously.

It has heavy moments, but it's ultimately a story about overcoming a nihilistic despair, which is a generally a relatable sort of despair people tend to feel when they dwell on their own mortality and what that means. Heavy moments kind of go hand in hand with that.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

and Garlemald itself looked like a map of the outskirts, not the city itself. If this was all that was Garlemald, the whole story doesn't make sense to begin with.

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It's stated in the game that we flew over most of the country in airships to go straight to the capital. And that we could only pull that because of the civil war and the upheaval caused by the Telophoroi. Much like the Azim Steppe, we only see the part that's immediately relevant to the plot.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

I am sorry and I don't want to hurt you but what fucking part of the story was remotely sad. There was no point where it fells like any one can be dead. At this point SE made the same problem DBZ. Death meaning nothing.
The onlly characters that was killed was 2 stupid girls we don't even know.

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I know your thing.. is trolling.. or at least being "edgy".. but lots of people died who weren't the two girls in

Garlemald. I suppose what you'll say next is that they all were so inconsequential you forgot, but not only did people die, we saw someone basically lose his mind and go from the most empathetic caring creator to a nihilistic madman, a loyal and steadfast leader choosing suicide over accepting the truth or at least accepting the world had changed and he might still be able to contribute, someone else wade through grim knowledge they had and trying to rally their dying people while knowing it was mostly futile.. there was even a dungeon where we got to see very briefly a mother lose hope and turn into a monster right in front of her children who then follow.

There's a lot of depressing and sad moments in the story. Were you paying attention at all?

Part of me feels like they changed some of the story to be more hopeful or to represent a theme of "even if it seems awful, keep going and it will be okay" given the events of the pandemic over the last two years, and honestly I'm fine with that. I don't think a story needs to be dark or have a lot of deaths to be impactful.

My biggest problems with the EW story are what others have expressed, the Final Days felt like it had 0 impact on the wider world and it really didn't feel like it was "the Final days" because nothing was affected other than Thavnair and Garlemald, and Garlemald was already destroyed and in a hopeless situation when we got there. One of the things I liked about Shadowbringers was that it was centralized in "not-Eorzea" and the sort of familiarity of it really drove home the feeling of hopelessness on the First for me, and I was hoping that we'd have gotten a chance to see the Final Days happening in Eorzea to really drive home what the Ancients felt in seeing their world fall apart. Thavnair and Garlemald lacked that for me as I didn't have years of investment in those zones. If we had seen it happening in Ul'dah, or Ishgard and seeing all that we worked to improve in expansions past, I think it would've been a much more relatable situation. Obviously that's not to say that I didn't care when it was happening in Thavnair, but with anything it hits home more when it's happening "at home."
I also really didn't like the tonal shift that happened whenever the Loporrits showed up even though I like the Loporrits. We just got done fighting a desperate battle in Garlemald, did we really need Puddingway to show up and complain about how there's no pudding? It was so jarring that it took me out of the story and I think the moments of comedic relief in EW fell really flat on their face.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

It's stated in the game that we flew over most of the country in airships to go straight to the capital. And that we could only pull that because of the civil war and the upheaval caused by the Telophoroi. Much like the Azim Steppe, we only see the part that's immediately relevant to the plot.

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Also when you came back from Elpis, you were informed when the Final Day hit Germelard, your fellow scion spread out leading several contingent of the EA to help out Emperial populace, and there success was just a drop of water in an ocean given how vast the Empire is.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I know your thing.. is trolling.. or at least being "edgy".. but lots of people died who weren't the two girls in

Garlemald. I suppose what you'll say next is that they all were so inconsequential you forgot, but not only did people die, we saw someone basically lose his mind and go from the most empathetic caring creator to a nihilistic madman, a loyal and steadfast leader choosing suicide over accepting the truth or at least accepting the world had changed and he might still be able to contribute, someone else wade through grim knowledge they had and trying to rally their dying people while knowing it was mostly futile.. there was even a dungeon where we got to see very briefly a mother lose hope and turn into a monster right in front of her children who then follow.

There's a lot of depressing and sad moments in the story. Were you paying attention at all?

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I was supposed to feel sad during those moments? I was mostly indifferent to every moment you said honestly. I felt like the 2 girls dying was just thrown in so they could rehash Ysayle's line about no child dying alone in the snow and was kind of upset that they'd waste such a line on these 2 girls but it did at least served a narrative purpose for Alphinaud so I gave it a pass. The suicide of a overly proud and ignorant fool was of no loss really as it had no real emotional depth to it. I didn't like the dude so him offing himself was just there for shock value and little more. Considering we already knew what was going to become of Nihilistic Madman, I honestly expected something a bit more traumatizing to happen that triggered that descent but all that really happened was they threatened to shut down his dynamis experiment and he went psycho.

The only really sad moment I could think of the entire expansion was probably in Thavnair with the mother protecting her child from the blasphemy and even that paled in comparison to some moments from previous expansions.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

The only thing that actually spooked me was Meteion having her little "episode" on Elpis when she reconnected to the shared consciousness, but that's just because I'm a jumpy mofo.

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I loved loved loved that. I got the same feeling as if it were the activation of an Emergency Alert System. That chilling noise, followed by the chilling message.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

My biggest problems with the EW story are what others have expressed, the Final Days felt like it had 0 impact on the wider world and it really didn't feel like it was "the Final days" because nothing was affected other than Thavnair and Garlemald, and Garlemald was already destroyed and in a hopeless situation when we got there. One of the things I liked about Shadowbringers was that it was centralized in "not-Eorzea" and the sort of familiarity of it really drove home the feeling of hopelessness on the First for me, and I was hoping that we'd have gotten a chance to see the Final Days happening in Eorzea to really drive home what the Ancients felt in seeing their world fall apart. Thavnair and Garlemald lacked that for me as I didn't have years of investment in those zones. If we had seen it happening in Ul'dah, or Ishgard and seeing all that we worked to improve in expansions past, I think it would've been a much more relatable situation. Obviously that's not to say that I didn't care when it was happening in Thavnair, but with anything it hits home more when it's happening "at home."

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I've posted this before in the lore subforums, but it makes perfect sense why it was isolated. Look at everything we did in ARR, HW, SB, and all the side content before EW. In every single one of them, people had issues they could despair over, and we took care of the biggest ones each country was facing. There was too much hope in previous areas due to our actions for despair to start spreading rapidly. The Role Quests themselves go over the remaining thing that we hadn't taken care of in each city state, taking care of the very last big problem.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

It's stated in the game that we flew over most of the country in airships to go straight to the capital. And that we could only pull that because of the civil war and the upheaval caused by the Telophoroi. Much like the Azim Steppe, we only see the part that's immediately relevant to the plot.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I've posted this before in the lore subforums, but it makes perfect sense why it was isolated. Look at everything we did in ARR, HW, SB, and all the side content before EW. In every single one of them, people had issues they could despair over, and we took care of the biggest ones each country was facing. There was too much hope in previous areas due to our actions for despair to start spreading rapidly. The Role Quests themselves go over the remaining thing that we hadn't taken care of in each city state, taking care of the very last big problem.

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Pretty much this:

- Granadia: was pretty much unscathed from the last calamity thanks to the elemental's shield. Had made much strike in resolveing internal conflict and racism, the people are content. Trade had also been established with the beast tribes.
- Limsa: the last faction had been brought to the fold, everyone bought into the vision of the Admiral. Peace achieved with the beast tribes.
- Ul'dah: no longer have a refugee crisis, new trade establish with Ala Miho. The conflict between the Sultanate and the Syndicated was resoleved.
- Domar and Alamiho: just regain independent from a long spell of occupation, you can't get more rosy than that.
- Isghard: actually you can, ending a freaking 1000 years long war with dragon. Cherry on top is an economic revival that saw a whole new quarter of the city built and flourish.
- Sharlayan: has been mentality prepared for it for a few hundred years.

Comparing to:
- Thavnair: have a monster spawning tower camping your door, destroying the economy and make it look like a pre-WW2 depression.
- Garlemald: I don't think I have to explain it?


So it make perfect sense the the final day rolling out the way it did, it fits the lore perfectly. In fact, it would fly in the face of the lore had it hit Eorzea all at once, since the story had said MANY time the final days would hit the most vulunerable position first, where hope is deprived and despair reign. Eventually as panic spread the city states will succum, but it makes during the story quest you see the population that was left behind but all the good revolution succumb first.

I said it many time and I'll say it again. I think many complain about EW is because people don't look at the entire scope of the story, but only at small snippets and say it doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I was supposed to feel sad during those moments? I was mostly indifferent to every moment you said honestly. I felt like the 2 girls dying was just thrown in so they could rehash Ysayle's line about no child dying alone in the snow and was kind of upset that they'd waste such a line on these 2 girls but it did at least served a narrative purpose for Alphinaud so I gave it a pass. The suicide of a overly proud and ignorant fool was of no loss really as it had no real emotional depth to it. I didn't like the dude so him offing himself was just there for shock value and little more. Considering we already knew what was going to become of Nihilistic Madman, I honestly expected something a bit more traumatizing to happen that triggered that descent but all that really happened was they threatened to shut down his dynamis experiment and he went psycho.

The only really sad moment I could think of the entire expansion was probably in Thavnair with the mother protecting her child from the blasphemy and even that paled in comparison to some moments from previous expansions.

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Just because you weren't, doesn't mean they weren't supposed to be. It's very obvious it's supposed to play on your emotions and while we can argue back and forth if it was done better or worse.. those moments are in there.

I will argue that shutting down his dynamis experiment wasn't what pushed him over but it was Meteions report of hopelessness.

My whole point being that there are moments in there, well done or not, that were supposed to be sad or to evoke a fear of loss and they're pretty obvious.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

So it make perfect sense the the final day rolling out the way it did, it fits the lore perfectly. In fact, it would fly in the face of the lore had it hit Eorzea all at once, since the story had said MANY time the final days would hit the most vulunerable position first, where hope is deprived and despair reign. Eventually as panic spread the city states will succum, but it makes during the story quest you see the population that was left behind but all the good revolution succumb first.

I said it many time and I'll say it again. I think many complain about EW is because people don't look at the entire scope of the story, but only at small snippets and say it doesn't make sense.

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If you're going to argue lore, Thavnair makes the least amount of sense if we go by it.
DNC's lore states that the practice originated in Thavnair and was designed specifically to fight off negative emotions, much like those seen during the Final Days and yet once the Final Days starts going, all that lore seems to have mysteriously been overlooked. Also, we literally solved the issue of Thavnair's Tower prior to the events of the Final Days even happening so things should have been slowly recovering. So despite not only having an entire combat style designed to combat negative emotions and one of the major points of contention being dealt with prior to the Final Days, the area being the 1st to fall to the influence of the Final Days made no narrative or lore sense at all.

I wouldn't argue too much about job lore, since SE hasn't cared much about them at all (cough cough AST cough cough losing two expacs of job story cough cough GNB being retconned for hrothgar and bozja cough cough).

It did strike me as odd and a let down that we didn't see dancers in action trying to fight off the transformations. Kept thinking that big stage we visited would play a part, but no.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

If you're going to argue lore, Thavnair makes the least amount of sense if we go by it.
DNC's lore states that the practice originated in Thavnair and was designed specifically to fight off negative emotions, much like those seen during the Final Days

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I don't it matter. That would be like saying since Thailand is a very devouted Buddhism country, and because Buddhism teaches enlightenment the people of Thailand must be more enlightened than other country ... Trust me, they are no more enlighten or less sinful than any others. The story did mentioned it, and you see even Maltia even when he was the one who reminded others of the teaching, he came almost to turning while chanting it. You're giving that culture too much credit I think.

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and yet once the Final Days starts going, all that lore seems to have mysteriously been overlooked.

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No ... unless you skip 2 MSG cutsceen ... they mentioned it front and center, it just doesn't have the super omnipotent effect you think it does.

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Also, we literally solved the issue of Thavnair's Tower prior to the events of the Final Days even happening so things should have been slowly recovering.

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Have you talked to any of the business owner that suffered during COVID? Once a business fail, there often no going back. And even if one can, many won't have the will to rebuild something that was built over decade from scratch. My grandfather was a very rich man, and he invested everything in a trade ship. That ship sunk and insurance was barely enough to cover liability so he didn't have to go to jail, but he lost everything. Many years later he admitted at one point he thought about renting a bus, put the whole family on it (about 15 people) and just drive it off the cliff. So yeah, I can totally relate to the feeling of the Thavnair's people.