Lore Forum Decorum - Just What is Meant by Good/Bad Faith?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I simply assumed that since you cared enough to pick apart my posts regarding a sensitive issue, you were open to actually working to resolve it. Was such an assumption false?

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No, I am responding to your forum post with the intent of continuing a discussion on the forum.

I am not going to enter into private debate with you as some kind of spokesperson for the group.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

No, I am responding to your forum post with the intent of continuing a discussion on the forum.

I am not going to enter into private debate with you as some kind of spokesperson for the group.

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Huh? Group? What 'group' are you referring to, exactly?

The group of people in this discussion, each with their own opinion. I am not interested in splitting away from it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

open to actually working to resolve it

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My Discord handle is Vicious#2538. Please, come tell me the specifics of your grievances since you aren't comfortable airing them here. At least, if you find some time and inclination to do so.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

So I just wanted to make this thread to know. Could someone explain in depth just what is the matter with the present decorum? How can we be better? If we could be better, would the old Lore hounds return?

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I don't think we can do better, as the conversation in this thread would seem to attest.

It was derailed by irrelevant Garlean nonsense by page 2.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Much of my bitter attitude traces back to one of the many ad nauseam debates around Garlemald years ago, wherein it was asserted that the Empire's belligerent stance against Eorzea was their own fault for not attempting to treat with them; this was pointed out as being both victim blaming and untrue, only for the victim blaming to get the "agree to disagree" platitude and Lolorito's attempts to reach out to the Empire through his merchant network deemed "not necessarily canon." Since then I can't assume the pro-Garlemald camp is really arguing in good faith, and (to little surprise) that cross-section of the fanbase latched onto the Ascians' plans as being right with the reveals of Shadowbringers, so much of my discontent carried over.

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Thank you. I knew there were divisive points and this seems to explain all the questions I had and tie it back to something pre-Shadowbringers. Also makes me wonder about complaints of Sb being the boring expansion. Had no idea and it all makes sense now. I really appreciate your comments here.

As for the zealotry, it is sad...

...not just because of the obvious harassment that goes on within the fandom in multiple mediums to where people even have to identify as pro-something or other (Ascian-kupos) and not use certain keywords so they don't get flamed on twitter (I believe Veloran and know the forum commenters exist partly within that ecosystem because I have noticed echoes of it in the corrective posts about what is cold hard fact about the lore and what is an observation by someone new who has not had years to process the story...my evidence for that is within this thread. If you look through my post history then that is my experience/evidence.

This was why I thought of this invisible problem as a fanfic/lore community divide...I have been thinking, are observations or trying to work out things WRONG?? In the fanfic community it seems like accidentally stepping on people's headcanons and ships gets the same kind of defensive response...heavens forbid you refer to Azem as the wrong Greek god without hurting feelings, for example)...

...but because, within the story, the "enemy" winds up saying something about the main character that should be important to everyone despite their level of empathy or whatever they do with their fleet of "ships" and headcanon. And a lot of times these are the most divisive and interesting characters/events (hello people who say Zenos is boring).

Sun Tzu's The Art of War:
III.)18. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
(You can read this on MIT's Internet Classics Archive.)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I want so badly to believe that "transform even the meta-discussion thread into repeating the same points on Garlean morality at each other" was a deliberate decision rooted in some kind of avante garde performance art.

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I thought that was pretty obvious given what was specifically quoted. My point was that just because someone thinks they're a "good-faith" actor, that doesn't mean they are. The Alliance/Garlean meeting was just a metaphor for that.

I blame Ilberd.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Such as, for example:

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I stand by what I said and by what Theodric said there. After seeing several lore discord meltdowns over minor character disagreements (or worse yet, when it devolves into constant moralising and then bringing in highly contentious RL politics while just expecting everyone to suffer in silence), and friends being stalked or harassed for their views on characters or factions in the game over reddit or twitter, as well as people avoiding this forum because they did not enjoy the way discussions are conducted, I have little inclination to alter my views. I for one do not bother very much with this subsection of the forum anymore, so whether you accept my words or not, it matters little to me.

Wait, you're all in a bunch of drama filled XIV lore discord servers?

Well... that certainly explains a thing or two.

This is why I never use Discord or Twitter. There's no reason to use the latter and the former is only good for organizing content runs like Eureka.

Remember: The hiveminded bluebird is the doom of mankind.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

This is why I never use Discord or Twitter. There's no reason to use the latter and the former is only good for organizing content runs like Eureka.

Remember: The hiveminded bluebird is the doom of mankind.

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Reddit with its downvote function is not much better sadly. ;) All the worse, because both are platforms the devs pay attention to. But I just treat reddit and twitter as a source of info (E.g. interviews) personally, and don't bother with the discussions on there. Smaller discords with people I know not to be prone to meltdowns over things have proven to be more successful - it is the larger ones I am referring to, particularly ones that try to deal with disagreements through aggressive tone policing. Not my kind of place.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Reddit with its downvote function is not much better sadly. ;) All the worse, because both are platforms the devs pay attention to. But I just treat reddit and twitter as a source of info (E.g. interviews) personally, and don't bother with the discussions on there. Smaller discords with people I know not to be prone to meltdowns over things have proven to be more successful - it is the larger ones I am referring to, particularly ones that try to deal with disagreements through aggressive tone policing. Not my kind of place.

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I don't use Twitter because it's a cesspool, but I do frequent r/ffxiv and it's frustrating the level of intolerance they have for any criticism or negative opinions. You'll never see anything but gushing praise unless you sort by controversial where even the most well thought out disagreements are in double digit downvotes. People are actively deterred from posting any thoughts that aren't positive there. It's deeply concerning I keep seeing Twitter, r/ffxiv, and streamers (who earn their living as entertainers) as their most frequently cited sources for feedback. I don't know how often they send out surveys, I've only gotten one since I started playing in June. It seems odd to me that their own forums wouldn't be #1 on the list given that you have to have a game account to post here.

I don’t think these forums are that bad tbh. I’ve only been around for about a year but while there may be petty disagreements over some things, it usually doesn’t devolve into worse i feel. Like i’ve tried discussing lore in other platforms that people have mentioned like twitter and reddit and to this day i’m still getting harassed and stalked due to my views of the story and certain characters which…idk, if i had any advice to give its stay the hell away from the ff14 reddit and twitter lol. The things i’ve been sent for disagreeing with certain plot points is alarming and scary.

Discord is solely responsible for the decentralization of the internet and the facilating of insular communities. Just look at the Balance and FFXIV, so much useful and necessary information locked behind servers and channels. Honestly we need to bring back old school internet forums in 2022

As far as this topic is concerned, I'd say... well, I think I've already talked about my perception of myself—that I'm prickly, mercurial, bullheaded, and so on. And I don't mean any offense when I'm being those things, and it's all born out of passion, not malice. But if I'm butting heads with someone and making their time on this forum miserable enough that they don't want to be here anymore, my intentions mean jack.

So I think I'll talk about my experiences on Twitter instead. It's been about a year since I opened up a new Twitter account for the sole purpose of liking tweets from that branch of FFXIV's fanbase. I didn't actually want to use Twitter for anything else—it's a very strange and unwelcoming place at times. I rubbed a few people the wrong way in doing so, however, and ended up getting blocked... often enough that it became noticeable when I would search for FFXIV related topics.

And y'know, it's not exactly difficult to get around being blocked or muted on Twitter, since it's all account based and accounts are free. But I haven't bothered because, well, what would be the point? I tried my hand at actually talking about points of interest myself—made lengthy tweet chains and what not over various topics—but it eventually became obvious that I just don't have anything interesting to say on Twitter. And the few times I've responded to someone have had more misses than hits, so to speak. So I just sort of... stopped. Nowadays the only topic I search with any regularity is Minfilia, and half of that is because there's a Korean roleplayer that brings me a little bit of happiness every day when I see them enjoying themselves. I think they have me muted, though, probably out of the expectation that I'd be talking about Endwalker there. Which... well, I wanted to do that, but I worry about spoiling things for people, too, and I can't expect the whole world to block or mute me.

So mostly I just talk to myself on Twitter now, lol. It's not so bad, though.

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Originally Posted by waifugenerator

Discord is solely responsible for the decentralization of the internet and the facilating of insular communities.

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Oh, I wouldn't say that. Programs like Discord have been around longer than many people have been alive. A forum I used to be a part of had a large portion of its userbase sequester themselves away in "Serial Threads", followed by Skype and Steam Chat once it became clear that instant messaging platforms were far more convenient than refreshing a website every minute or so to see if someone replied to them. And that forum in itself was just one of many places for what was ultimate a community of a niche subject matter—of which there are more of than there are stars in the sky. So long as there are two people in this world, someone is going to want a specific place to discuss something they like, and someone else is going to want alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I know we argue like loreyers, at least in a few people's eyes.

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Fixed that for you.

I've been lurking this forum since I joined and would simply like to say I've always appreciated everyone's points of view as they've helped me look at the story from different angles I wouldn't have thought of on my own.

To me, Good Faith means presenting ones points in order to further the discussion of the topic at hand. It also means presenting topics one believes are true and aren't false ones put out simply to stir the pot. Good faith argument can be calm and deliberate or heated and aggressive, tone doesn't matter.

This thread is fab (honest!). There's been a fair few times over the last year or two in Lore where I've come away wondering if I'd been reading General Discussion by accident.

Thinking about how you impact others is a good way to move forwards. All of you in this thread typically have posts I like reading and have found worthwhile, because you often have such good stuff to say - and it doesn't matter whether I agree with you, lorewise, gamewise or anything wise. So focus on the good stuff, keep being the good stuff; be kind to each other, watch out for each other, be genuinely humble, admit when you stuff it all up, and it'll even itself out. Be the change you want to see, and all that.

Public discords always descend into trash in the best of times, and far worse things in other cases. On topic, I think the issue is that the passive aggressiveness of the game simply flows into the forums. You have two polarized sides that refuse to budge, but at the same time cannot really do anything to the opposing side. So it devolves into a cold war of roundabout insults.

I am a diehard and devout villianshipper. I do not and have never denied such. lol. I think when it comes to the discussions on the Ascians, tbqh I tend to take their side quite heavily, considering WoLidibus is my primary ship thanks to a friend of mine that writes him. I take issue with Venat's actions not because I think she is a bad/evil person, but because I think she acted rashly. She said "Oop, they aren't willing to give up Zodiark, sunder!" not taking into account that they were traumatized, grieving, and still in the aftermath of a disaster. If you tell someone after a hurricane that your god could restore their home and you had *proof* of that, how many of them would not take that chance? I bet you it'd be near 100%. So yeah, basically genociding an entire world but for three people by sundering the world is kinda crap.

I have gotten called out for my views multiple times by Team Hydaelyn on this forum. lmao.

So this may be in poor taste, and apologies to Theodric if I overstep in doing this, but I felt compelled to share the details I asked for, in some manner.

I had a very cordial discord conversation with Theodric about the issues he's had when discussing FFXIV lore. The death threats he received were from a Redditor going by the handle, "Lance." I wouldn't know him or anyone from Reddit, as I do not use Reddit, but Theodric is certain that this, "Lance" posts here, but he does not know his character or OF profile at all.

The other person's name for the homophobia is someone on the forum, but it's no one that I've seen post in Lore in a long time, granted I am neither omniscient or omnipresent. But suffice to say, anyone who's had a problem with Theodric in this thread is not who he is worried about or rather, dislikes(unless, of course, they are "Lance").


So anyone who thought they were the major beef with Theodric, if you don't fit these criterion, then you can rest easy.

With that heavy portion written out, I again apologize for overstepping, but I felt strongly that it needed to be said.

I'm glad to see yet more people responding and sharing their insights and feelings. Let's settle up and put all the old tension to bed, perceived or otherwise.

Speaking of lore (or general) discussion, while reddit and Twitter are the famously bad one, I think ffxiv discord is on the way to reach their level in toxicity. I guess part of it is due to the chat moving fast and anyone can join the conversation suddenly, sometimes without the full context of the discussion. Because my god, the dogpiling there is the worst.

One time, back in ShB, I asked some clarification regarding our minfilia and it kinda went into discussion about how the story treated her. I voiced my displeasure with it, someone else ask (out of pettiness I guess) about how *I* would have write it. I said, "on top of my head, I would write x, y, z. This is just ideas I spent 5 minutes thinking of though". After that it was just chaos as more and more people critized it, saying hurtful things like "thank God you're not a writer" etc, and even things that doesn't relate to the original point at all. So yeah, I'm done with them.

Back to lore forum, I think I have to agree with several others here that this platform is probably the best to discuss things, given the other choices. It's not perfect, but nothing is after all. And I'm glad I didn't listen to reddit/Twitter when they said ffxiv forum is the toxic-est place, because otherwise I wouldn't be here.

Sorry it turned into big rant :/

Honestly Cilia wrote it up perfectly. Her post is how I basically feel about the forum. Discussion has become a bit tiresome, especially regarding factions like Garlemald or the Ascians. There is nothing wrong with liking them but I really just dont like it when information is spun in a way to make the factions look different then what they are.

This thread shows how just mentioning them can turn the discussion away from the topic at hand. I remember so many discussions where I just mentioned them as one example of many and the answers fixiated on them...sadly I still had to learn my lesson to ignore such posts in the past and answered them because I could not let them stand that way. I try to do better and not be caught up in such posts again because I know that they will just end in utter frustration.

I just hope that in the future we will finally be able to break away from these topics. I am glad that the Zodiark/Hydaelyn/Ascian arc is over and that we may go back to smaller stories. Maybe there will be less explosive potential there...at least if people truly want to discuss in good faith and not just to rile others up. I had enough of my share of being called a sheep, tempered, bascially an idiot and not knowing the story because I did not remember certain details.

Of course both sides can be harsh there. How often have I read that people who may not like EW just skipped the story or did not understand it. At the same time I also read the argument that others may enjoy compley stories thus dont like EW but its fine to like EW if you like simpler easy stories. Basically both sides attacked the others for their taste...instead of focusing on arguments about the story its about the person behind the post itself...and that is imo a no go. I noticed that over Shadowbringer it has become harder for me to not fall into that myself, simply because the frustration was going through the roof with certain topics.

In the end I try to get better with that, try to just ignore certain points instead of answering them and hopefully argue in good faith when I post. (Also sorry for any bad grammar and stuff like that, I am from germany and its a bit hard for me to articulate what I think...)

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

I think when it comes to the discussions on the Ascians, tbqh I tend to take their side quite heavily, considering WoLidibus is my primary ship thanks to a friend of mine that writes him. I take issue with Venat's actions not because I think she is a bad/evil person, but because I think she acted rashly. She said "Oop, they aren't willing to give up Zodiark, sunder!" not taking into account that they were traumatized, grieving, and still in the aftermath of a disaster.

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I've ended up on their side because their side has more interesting characters and complex dilemmas. I also think that prior to ShB the villains weren't emotionally compelling and I did not care about them at all. The Ascians are 'all or nothing' with sympathetic motivations. When one of them fails it's another nail in the coffin of bringing back everything and everyone they ever loved.

Meanwhile, EW particularly drove home how privileged and plot-armored the Scions are. They step off screen for about 5 minutes and then, surprise (not), they all get to be brought back to life, repeatedly in some cases, but when Ancients die it's forever. It's just ridiculous at this point, not to mention the hypocrisy of it. I need an Endwalker death counter because for all of the Final Days the only 'deaths' of meaningful characters I can recall were all Ancients, more than half of whom were already dead in the current timeline.

I think this is why HW as a whole worked the best for me. The tragedy of the dragons was understandable, but Nidhogg was only about seeking revenge which wasn't going to be of any benefit to anyone, not even him. Plus, Estinien, Ysayle, Aymeric, etc., all had complicated backgrounds both socially and of having endured a lifetime of being in a 1,000 year war without end. HW also didn't spare the protagonists death. Let me be clear, I'm not a fan of the GoT type of writing where numerous characters die, my issue is when all the deaths only ever happen on the opposition. It's simply not realistic and it's less satisfying when the protagonists always win without incurring much in the way of loss.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

I am a diehard and devout villianshipper. I do not and have never denied such. lol. I think when it comes to the discussions on the Ascians, tbqh I tend to take their side quite heavily, considering WoLidibus is my primary ship thanks to a friend of mine that writes him. I take issue with Venat's actions not because I think she is a bad/evil person, but because I think she acted rashly. She said "Oop, they aren't willing to give up Zodiark, sunder!" not taking into account that they were traumatized, grieving, and still in the aftermath of a disaster. If you tell someone after a hurricane that your god could restore their home and you had *proof* of that, how many of them would not take that chance? I bet you it'd be near 100%. So yeah, basically genociding an entire world but for three people by sundering the world is kinda crap.

I have gotten called out for my views multiple times by Team Hydaelyn on this forum. lmao.

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I feel this lol. Both on here and on the 14 reddit discord whenever i’d give info and try to share my views(which ended up being supported both in shb and ew mind you), if get told how i’m bending absolutely backwards for the zodiark faction, how i’m wrong in the head for believing hydaelyn could be in the wrong, the scions have plot armor or that a story like this does need death and stakes, and basically just end up getting death threats because of my views lol. I’d say these forums are much better in turn because at the most you just get some snark, but typically that happens when people are either insecure with their views or they know you’re right and have no comeback hehe, which tbh i think banter can be a bit fun as long as it isnt taken too seriously on either side and people arent overly sensitive about it.

I don't even know where that issue is half the time because both sides of the "let people stan villains" schtick can be so ridiculous, lol.

1) Everyone is entitled to interpret and enjoy the story however they like.

2) No one is entitled to the lore forum ... willfully misinterpreting established data ... to preserve their headcanon.

Ambiguity zone? Just agree to disagree. Just walk out. You can leave.

You'd think this would be easy. You'd be wrong, but you'd think it.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I don't even know where that issue is half the time because both sides of the "let people stan villains" schtick can be so ridiculous, lol.

1) Everyone is entitled to interpret and enjoy the story however they like.

2) No one is entitled to the lore forum ... willfully misinterpreting established data ... to preserve their headcanon.

Ambiguity zone? Just agree to disagree. Just walk out. You can leave.

You'd think this would be easy. You'd be wrong, but you'd think it.

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IMHO Venat got off far too lightly in the narrative. Was what the Ascians doing wrong? Of course, I never claimed differently. But neither is she squeaky clean here. What she did to the Amaurotine and Ancient civilization in general was wrong, dead wrong. You do not try to convince traumatized people to embrace the fact that suffering exists. You allow them their crutches and comforts until the trauma has passed and then you deal with them like reasonable human beings.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I've ended up on their side because their side has more interesting characters and complex dilemmas. I also think that prior to ShB the villains weren't emotionally compelling and I did not care about them at all. The Ascians are 'all or nothing' with sympathetic motivations. When one of them fails it's another nail in the coffin of bringing back everything and everyone they ever loved.

Meanwhile, EW particularly drove home how privileged and plot-armored the Scions are. They step off screen for about 5 minutes and then, surprise (not), they all get to be brought back to life, repeatedly in some cases, but when Ancients die it's forever. It's just ridiculous at this point, not to mention the hypocrisy of it. I need an Endwalker death counter because for all of the Final Days the only 'deaths' of meaningful characters I can recall were all Ancients, more than half of whom were already dead in the current timeline.

I think this is why HW as a whole worked the best for me. The tragedy of the dragons was understandable, but Nidhogg was only about seeking revenge which wasn't going to be of any benefit to anyone, not even him. Plus, Estinien, Ysayle, Aymeric, etc., all had complicated backgrounds both socially and of having endured a lifetime of being in a 1,000 year war without end. HW also didn't spare the protagonists death. Let me be clear, I'm not a fan of the GoT type of writing where numerous characters die, my issue is when all the deaths only ever happen on the opposition. It's simply not realistic and it's less satisfying when the protagonists always win without incurring much in the way of loss.

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^This. I moved from liking the Ascians and their god, because I am drawn to such things in fantasy settings to simply liking their story that much more, especially when it began taking on similar aspects to those of the blood elves in WoW. Most disagreements here stem from differences in philosophical stances, even if they relate to hypothetical situations, and/or preferences in story-telling, so for me once any disagreements over lore "facts" (to the degree such are clear) are cleared up, and only hypotheticals or ambiguities are left, the scope for further reconciliation becomes minimal and "agree to disagree" seems like a good stance to default to.

If I can be frank, there’s general trend that occurs in particularly divisive discussions. Someone takes one position using evidence from the story, another chimes in with their own evidence that could contradict it, a back and forth occurs with someone inevitably saying that the others evidence is stupid and bad writing and shouldn’t exist, which in turn leads to more back and forth and then on and on until the topic comes up again in another thread.

It doesn’t make for good discussion.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I stand by what I said and by what Theodric said there. After seeing several lore discord meltdowns over minor character disagreements (or worse yet, when it devolves into constant moralising and then bringing in highly contentious RL politics while just expecting everyone to suffer in silence), and friends being stalked or harassed for their views on characters or factions in the game over reddit or twitter, as well as people avoiding this forum because they did not enjoy the way discussions are conducted, I have little inclination to alter my views. I for one do not bother very much with this subsection of the forum anymore, so whether you accept my words or not, it matters little to me.

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This does read as you encountering negative drama over lore discussions in other venues, and then importing that negativity here to the Official Forums lore discussions. (The comparisons to Meteion do come to mind, but I assume everyone else can also see it, so no need to elaborate, and it's tangential anyway.)

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

This does read as you encountering negative drama over lore discussions in other venues, and then importing that negativity here to the Official Forums lore discussions. (The comparisons to Meteion do come to mind, but I assume everyone else can also see it, so no need to elaborate, and it's tangential anyway.)

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/shrug

10c

I don't think such a point really stands beneath even a light amount of scrutiny given that multiple posters have spoken out within this very thread to state that they've found this place to be rather hostile and needlessly dramatic at times. As it so happens, such behaviour can be found elsewhere in addition to here.

This thread do be havin' some bad dynamis. (ninja character limit edit incoming)

I don't really post much on these Forums (though, I did chuckle when someone abbreviated the Official Forum as "OF" which... means something entirely different to my Twitter addled brain...), but figured I'd add my two gil.

I think the reality is that people have very different views on what constitutes good and bad faith arguments, which kind of hampers the discussion to begin with. When you have groups of people coming together to discuss something they hold dearly and are passionate about -- regardless of the medium -- it can (and does) get out of hand pretty quickly, even if people mean well. Personally, for me, bad faith is when someone approaches a situation without any intention to have an actual dialogue and just pops in to stir the pot or regurgitate their favorite fan-fiction. An example of this for me would be that like... two month period a year or so ago when some very loud group of people on Twitter had somehow absolutely convinced themselves that Amon was actually Emet-Selch, even though that made no sense then, and we know to be categorically untrue now (thank god); there were a chunk of people who I saw would try to nicely present reasons why this theory wasn't possible using the Encyclopedia Eorzea, but got dunked on for whatever reason.

I know sometimes I have trouble separating out a person's takes, and how the interact with others on forums, to who they are as an actual person. Especially with regards to how I view someone's takes being a reflection of their values. There are some people on this forum I have never interacted with even once, and would be incredibly reticent to engage with privately because I've (unfairly) judged their behavior on public spaces like this/Twitter/Discord/Reddit; but who I would probably end up liking and getting along with personally. I'm a big villain lover -- in FF I've been a stan of my fashion queen Edea/Ultimecia, my silver haired twinks Kuja and Sephiroth, and my nihilistic blue boy Seymour for as long as I can remember. In the same way that in other fictional universes some of my favorite characters are villains like Count Dooku, Kreia, and the player-character Sith storylines in SWTOR. When Shadowbringers came out Emet-as-Solus probably was one of my favorite fictional characters ever. The problem I have is when people start saying things like "The Ascians weren't actually bad", "the Empire did nothing wrong" , "Actually, Hydaelyn is evil!", or "If you think about it, the Jedi are the bad guys!" Because of how I (unfairly or not) correlate someone's takes to their values and who they are as a person at their core, when I see people say things like "if you think about it, the people who wanted to commit a genocide weren't actually that bad!" it's fairly off putting and hard for me to engage with them in my own good faith because I see them as simping for "Actual BadnessTM" and not having any nuance to their position as if they were saying something to the effect of "I love [X Character/Group], what they're doing is awful, but the writers really found a way to make their point of view and actions understandable."

To circle back around to the more macro question of "Lore Forum Decorum" -- I am a lore person. I get very hyper focused on/in the lore of things that I like. Every week or so I like to spend an hour or so before I go to bed just browsing the lore forum and reading some of the posts. I like reading what folks have to say, and enjoy seeing other peoples interpretation of things, as well as seeing people answer questions that get posted; sometimes even giving me "aha!" moments when I read the answers. There have been a number of times where I've almost engaged, posted, etc., but usually I get stopped by the fact that A) I'm lazy and logging into my account on my phone and pulling up my one time password takes a bit of the wind out of my sails and B) the way some of you argue with one another can come off as cruel and sarcastic to the point of being unwelcoming. I say this as someone who is, by my own admission, not a conflict adverse person by any means, but often I read posts on here that come off as being off-puttingly rude and unnecessarily harsh. Of course, part of that is the fact that it is very hard to interpret tone by text alone even on the best of days; but there are times where it's hard not to grimace at some of the posts/way people argue with one another.

Not necessarily directly related, but in an earlier comment I saw someone blame Discord for communities and conversations moving away from things like Forums. I don't think the specifics of that are true, but I think Discord being an all-in-one platform really helped catalyze that to it's fullest when compared to the smaller compartmentalization for communities I saw during the AOL/MSN/Skype/TeamSpeak/etc era. Additionally, I do want to say, in regards to some back-and-forth I saw earlier about something that happened on Reddit (I assume r/FFXIV subreddit?) always report those instances to both the Admins, and the subreddit mods. I know on the r/ffxiv sub like, half of us identify as Queer in some capacity so we take homophobia/transphobic/etc very seriously; and any time there is a report or modmail it gets manually reviews by a moderator.

See you all in my next post in two years!

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

This does read as you encountering negative drama over lore discussions in other venues, and then importing that negativity here to the Official Forums lore discussions. (The comparisons to Meteion do come to mind, but I assume everyone else can also see it, so no need to elaborate, and it's tangential anyway.)

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If there's a reason for Lauront and Theodric or anyone to think that negativity or hatred from other venues is here, simultaneously then I can understand their inclination to be pithy and distant. That's their prerogative.

Receiving a credible death threat would be pretty alarming to me. I've never received one online, so it must be spooky. If someone on another venue mentions that they frequent another forum that I'm on, but doesn't identify who they are on that forum, then I'd be on edge too.

But hopefully for my transgression, people's minds are at ease at least when talking to Theodric, so we don't have to hang on it. Don't be surprised if Lauront and Theodric still do. I don't blame them.

I know I'm spectacularly unpopular, so all I can really say is that it's never my intention to upset or offend anyone. (It can happen; I blame catboy RBF.)

Aside from FC chat, I don't discuss FFXIV anywhere else, because Lore used to be the accept-no-substitutes best. It was hard to come back after a brief hiatus to find it consumed in the negativity and vitriol I came here to escape, but in spite of myself, I'm also not quite ready to give up on it yet.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I know I'm spectacularly unpopular, so all I can really say is that it's never my intention to upset or offend anyone. (It can happen; I blame catboy RBF.)

Aside from FC chat, I don't discuss FFXIV anywhere else, because Lore used to be the accept-no-substitutes best. It was hard to come back after a brief hiatus to find it consumed in the negativity and vitriol I came here to escape, but in spite of myself, I'm also not quite ready to give up on it yet.

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I've just started really looking at this part of the forum and I'm kind of amazed at how negative people are about the lore. It's almost as people on this site just don't enjoy the game and story, or are ticked off that it didn't follow what their head canon was on how the story should go.

Maybe it's because I can enjoy things, warts and all and don't try to overanalyze every little tidbit. People do it with movies as well and I find doing that just sucks the enjoyment our of most things.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I know I'm spectacularly unpopular, so all I can really say is that it's never my intention to upset or offend anyone. (It can happen; I blame catboy RBF.)

Aside from FC chat, I don't discuss FFXIV anywhere else, because Lore used to be the accept-no-substitutes best. It was hard to come back after a brief hiatus to find it consumed in the negativity and vitriol I came here to escape, but in spite of myself, I'm also not quite ready to give up on it yet.

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I like you. I think you've got generally cool ideas, and sometimes reveal fresh insights.

I don't think the forum is totally consumed by vitriol either. There's just a lot of old heat that's still hot, and it still causes some threads to catch on fire.

And I think the issue is really more the inclination to discuss plot elements and characters vs. actually discussing Lore. They are often deeply intertwined, and we have a hard time separating them because character actions lead to new lore. I think we can overcome it all, though. We just have to be open and frank.

For the record I don't use Twitter or Reddit, and the only thing I use Discord for is playing Dungeons & Dragons, precisely because I know a lot of online communities are toxic (or quickly and easily become so) and want no part of that negativity.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I've just started really looking at this part of the forum and I'm kind of amazed at how negative people are about the lore. It's almost as people on this site just don't enjoy the game and story, or are ticked off that it didn't follow what their head canon was on how the story should go.

Maybe it's because I can enjoy things, warts and all and don't try to overanalyze every little tidbit. Peoppe do it with movies as well and I find doing that just sucks the enjoyment our of most things.

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As I see it a large part of the negativity (right now, at any rate) is that Endwalker didn't play out the way a lot of people here wanted it to - Hydaelyn / Venat was given a sympathetic portrayal, wonky time shenanigans were afoot, and the story veered more in a traditional fantasy direction than the political intrigue that seems to be more popular among this Forum's frequent users; so people have decided to go Cinema Sins on it and pick apart all the flaws, real or imagined, in how its story and characters played out. Shadowbringers received nothing but glowing praise.

Shadowbringers recieved nothing but glowing praise (more or less) because the narrative was far more tightly written and had far less plot holes and inconsistencies. Like the worst plot hole I can think of would be G'raha coming in at the end of 5.0 and despite being shot, beaten, exhausted, and far from the Crystal Tower, enacting a summoning spell for seven people that he barely managed to complete for WoL when we were helping him on our end. And this is very egregious, but people let it slide because it was part of possibly the best sequence in the entire game. Endwalker's issues are more widespread by comparison and affect much more than a single moment.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Shadowbringers recieved nothing but glowing praise (more or less) because the narrative was far more tightly written and had far less plot holes and inconsistencies. Like the worst plot hole I can think of would be G'raha coming in at the end of 5.0 and despite being shot, beaten, exhausted, and far from the Crystal Tower, enacting a summoning spell for seven people that he barely managed to complete for WoL when we were helping him on our end. And this is very egregious, but people let it slide because it was part of possibly the best sequence in the entire game. Endwalker's issues are more widespread by comparison and affect much more than a single moment.

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Yep this exactly. Endwalker just has widespread flaws in comparison to shadowbringers and i think that added on to the fact it’s supposed to be effectively THE ending of this years long arc whilst also being delayed 6-7 months just puts more salt in the wound for people who found it fairly mediocre.