An ominous premonition? (Slight spoiler for the Studium quests)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

When Emet showed us the Source and its reflections in the Ocular during Shadowbringers, he had them topologically arranged in a circle rather than a line (i.e. the First and the Thirteenth are both immediately adjacent to us). If the lifestream links the shards to each other, then perhaps the Ourbouros isn't just a symbol of rebirth, but also represents the flow of souls from one shard to the next. That being said, if you had a calamity causing a large loss of life and resulting displacement of souls, you would then expect the rejoining to cause two adjacent shards to collide rather than the shard in question and the source. You'd also need eight wedges between seven shards if you were partitioning the lifestream.

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Unless there's a natural predisposition for the aether to return to the Source, which is something that makes sense with the knowledge that the Calamities only effect the Source after a Shard's destruction, and no other Shard. Which means the Source itself attempts to pull the Shards to it, but Hydaelyn or Zodiark's power (maybe both) kept them from coming any closer, until the balance is out of whack, at which point a Shard gets so close that it gets absorbed back into the Source.

This process results in the aether going haywire, causing massive ecosystem changes to the Source itself...as seen by how Coerthas, which originally had some greenery to it before Bahamut, is now a bit of a frozen wastes (in comparison to the Dravanian Forelands and Hinterlands which show how it probably should look more like). Without Hydaelyn and Zodiark's power here, it's very likely the Shards are getting pulled slowly closer to the Source, which will result in the one Calamity to end them all. The Seven Wedges are likely going to be putting some force there to stabilize each Shard's connection to the Source so there's nothing pulling them together.

The thing that I'd like to know is how the shards are connected to each other, and in what direction the lifestream flows.

If someone dies on the First, for example, where does that soul go? Does it stay in the First, does it travel to another shard, or does it travel to the Source? If it can travel to the Source, can the reverse also be true, or is the flow unidirectional?

If every shard connects back to the Source directly and the direction of flow is unidirectional, then over time, every Soul would eventually end up back on the Source, and individual shards would depopulate over time even without forcing a Rejoining.

The more general form of this question is how the shards maintain a dynamic equilibrium with each other, such that the net amount of souls on each shard remains relatively constant over time. Even if the flow is bidirectional, if every shard was only connected to the source, the source would need to have on average around 6x the birth and death rate of the other shards to maintain balance (13x originally). If the Source is only directly connected to the First and Thirteenth and every shard is connected to two others, then they all can have roughly identical birth and death rates.

It seems implied that every shard has its own distinct Lifestream as Hydaelyn had to specifically "ferry" the souls of Minfilia and Emet-Selch back to the Source from the First.

Though that in itself would further imply she has some level of control over the aetherial sea, which again raises questions of what the heck is going to happen now if she's somehow been exerting her influence over it since the Sundering, but is no longer present to do so.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Though that in itself would further imply she has some level of control over the aetherial sea, which again raises questions of what the heck is going to happen now if she's somehow been exerting her influence over it since the Sundering, but is no longer present to do so.

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Good thing we found a couple gods of the afterlife wandering around, then, or that would be a WAY bigger problem.

Given that what we know of the actual "afterlife" vs. its portrayal in the various faiths, I can't help but wonder what Nald'thal's real purpose for being is.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Given that what we know of the actual "afterlife" vs. its portrayal in the various faiths, I can't help but wonder what Nald'thal's real purpose for being is.

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with the introduction of dynamis its possible both the lifestream and 7 heavens/hells exist simultaneously.

I would have thought that if the Lifestream of each shard was isolated from the others, that would be a bit like Ourbouros with the wedges driven into its back. If they flow into each other, that's where issues potentially can arise, if they're not in equilibrium.

The Amaurotians had a cabinet position dedicated exclusively to dealings with the Underworld/Lifestream (i.e. Emet-Selch). You still someone capable of addressing issues arising from it, ideally one who is good at identifying or weighing souls.

Speaking of the lifestream, do we know the state of the ancient souls sacrificed to Zodiark? How sundered or unsundered are they?
Either way, there is at least two fully unsundered souls ready to be rebirthed (in 100 years or so I presume but nevertheless), and, well, I feel like that needs to be addressed eventually?

I'm not sure if it really matters all that much. There's a lot of variation amongst soul densities as it is, and that's even assuming that the Ancients themselves all had souls with identical density. I don't think that Hyth is at 'full' density given that Zodiark was sundered and only partially rejoined, and he was less magically adept than Emet to begin with. If Emet's soul gets recycled at a later point, the person who inherits it might end up being really good at magic with a longer than normal LB cast time.

I can't help but wonder what the "new flesh" in the prophecy could be referring to.

It could be figurative, but I could honestly see it being more literal in the sense of Etheriys creating some manner of lifeform(s) to try to address the instability caused by the Sundering coupled with the absence of the two gods. If souls are born from the star itself, it could stand to reason that at one point it also bestowed flesh upon them, perhaps with the Ancients being the original lifeforms and their unique Echo-blessed souls a testament to that.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

with the introduction of dynamis its possible both the lifestream and 7 heavens/hells exist simultaneously.

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Aetherial afterlife where all living aether goes to.
Dynamis afterlife where all living dynamis goes to.

Idea: Themis (probably Elidibus) says that the beast stirs down below, and mentions Pandaemonium. We also know that the ancients referred to the sounds of the end sounding like "a keening from the earth", not of the skies. A curious distinction. Perhaps some beast deep in the planet heard the song of oblivion and amplifies it? Is that what's gone loose in Pandaemonium? Is that the serpent that sleeps?

My suspicion is that Eric completely misread his father, and that Lahabrea's obsession with his work as well as the hemitheos experiments in Pandaemonium were all part of an attempt to bring Athena back to life by binding her soul to Creation magic. The solution would have struck Lahabrea as obvious following the events of the Shadowbringers short story 'Tales from the Shadows: Through His Eyes', in which a wayward soul resists the pull of the underworld by spontaneously binding itself to his own creation, the Phoinix. That was the significance of bringing that same entity in as a boss this tier, an expansion later.

I think that Athena's despair over the matter will be the trigger event for Amaurot's Final Days, much like Khalzahl was for Thavnair, and the 'terrible cry' will turn out to be the sound of her transformation from within the depths of Pandaemonium. We know that Final Days does not physically manifest itself until after the first transformation occurs. Watching her die a second time will probably break Lahabrea, trigger his spiral into madness, and cement an eternal grudge against us. Azem might front the blame and get exiled as a consequence of it. The hemitheos concept will also probably get reused later on, when Elidibus is sacrificed to form Zodiark's heart.

The 'serpent devouring its own tail' is 'Ouroboros'. It's an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, and it likely symbolizes the cyclical nature of the lifestream through birth and death. It may turn out to have a more literal meaning as a 'lifestream primal', but let's assume that it's purely symbolic for now. The wedges probably have more to do with the flow of the lifestream and what's happening to the reflections and the Void.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

My suspicion is that Eric completely misread his father, and that Lahabrea's obsession with his work as well as the hemitheos experiments in Pandaemonium were all part of an attempt to bring Athena back to life by binding her soul to Creation magic. The solution would have struck Lahabrea as obvious following the events of the Shadowbringers short story 'Tales from the Shadows: Through His Eyes', in which a wayward soul resists the pull of the underworld by spontaneously binding itself to his own creation, the Phoinix. That was the significance of bringing that same entity in as a boss this tier, an expansion later.

I think that Athena's despair over the matter will be the trigger event for Amaurot's Final Days, much like Khalzahl was for Thavnair, and the 'terrible cry' will turn out to be the sound of her transformation from within the depths of Pandaemonium. We know that Final Days does not physically manifest itself until after the first transformation occurs. Watching her die a second time will probably break Lahabrea, trigger his spiral into madness, and cement an eternal grudge against us. Azem might front the blame and get exiled as a consequence of it. The hemitheos concept will also probably get reused later on, when Elidibus is sacrificed to form Zodiark's heart.

The 'serpent devouring its own tail' is 'Ouroboros'. It's an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, and it likely symbolizes the cyclical nature of the lifestream through birth and death. It may turn out to have a more literal meaning as a 'lifestream primal', but let's assume that it's purely symbolic for now. The wedges probably have more to do with the flow of the lifestream and what's happening to the reflections and the Void.

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I want to believe this is true, because it sounds fascinating. It would be pretty massive if the WoL ends up being in Pandemonium as the first Final Day befalls the ancient world (unless I'm remembering wrong and the cry didn't automatically launch the final days as we know them). But gosh, it sounds like an extremely grim ending for a raid! Whatever the truth that fills Elidibus'/Themis' heart is better be good because I was completely fine leaving Elpis the first time without interfering further as we needed to go back to our world and to our fight, but this time around there is no time constraint and we have averted the Final Days, it's harder for me to accept just leaving the ancients to their own devices, unless the story makes it extremely clear that if we meddle with this timeline, there will be severe consequences. No more leaving it up for debate, please!

Lv. 84 'In Shadow's Wake':
Watcher: 'One day, from within the earth, a terrible cry issued forth, affecting a profound change in all manner of life.'

That sound probably comes from the transformation of the first blasphemy, regardless of circumstance. In Thavnair, we investigate Svarbhanu's origin after completing Vanaspati, and we find out that the sky only changed after Khalzahl's bankruptcy and his subsequent transformation. The index event has to happen first. It's really the same thing here. And an Amaurotian is too aetherically dense to transform, but... a hemitheos isn't.

I'm only drawing a link to the Final Days with Pandaemonium because the message that we receive through the unetched Lahabrea crystal indicates that the 'star is in grave danger', and that's the most likely cause barring any other world-ending threats. At some point in this raid storyline, we'll probably see someone record that same message on the crystal and toss it into the future.

In the Tales from the Shadows series, it looked like Elidibus very much looked up to Azem, in much the same way that G'raha does the player character now (which is interesting, because they were foils in 5.3, and there's a dialogue choice with G'raha that explores this parallel with Elidibus). You do get a sense of that warmth as well when Elidibus talks about Azem in the Pandaemonium storyline.

In 5.3 Elidibus talks about a promise that he once made to 'someone' that he would protect the planet. A promise that he could remember, but not to whom. My guess is that person was Azem, except that he lost his memory of the true 'cause' behind his fight along with his identity when he was sacrificed to become Zodiark's heart. The realization of how these plot threads came together and the final recognition of a lost, forgotten friend is probably the truth that filled his heart.

So yeah, I'm expecting them to go straight for the gut with this one.

That definitely makes a lot of sense, yeah.

But I think the thing that doesn't really add up with this theory is that if hemitheos-Athena-blasphemy is the source of the cry and a raid boss to boot, well, is WoL truly the only one to recognize its link to the Final Days? I feel like that's a pretty big hint/piece of the puzzle in terms of ancients figuring out what's going on. Unless of course we fight the blasphemy by ourselves and Themis and Eric are nowhere to be seen, but that seems awfully convenient. Perhaps Lahabrea will meddle in this scenario somehow.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

That definitely makes a lot of sense, yeah.

But I think the thing that doesn't really add up with this theory is that if hemitheos-Athena-blasphemy is the source of the cry and a raid boss to boot, well, is WoL truly the only one to recognize its link to the Final Days? I feel like that's a pretty big hint/piece of the puzzle in terms of ancients figuring out what's going on. Unless of course we fight the blasphemy by ourselves and Themis and Eric are nowhere to be seen, but that seems awfully convenient. Perhaps Lahabrea will meddle in this scenario somehow.

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It's possible he will, with the 2nd tier ending with us "locked" from Pandaemonium in the past, just for us to find it in the present and put down the beast once and for all (or at least the Source's version of it).

I didn't expect this thread, of all things, to be one revived after Dawntrail. And I certainly didn't expect to be the one doing it. But here we are.

There's a quest that seems to get conspicuously close to this one; It Belongs In A Museum, the quest for one of the new expert dungeons, Tender Valley. There's a tail end where we look into an old legend potentially relating to the dungeon; the relevant line is here. (Still spoilered for being soon after the expansion)

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Originally Posted by Teller

The devout who held vigil of the temple held this belief: “When the great serpent doth awaken, its coil shall envelop the world.” In other words, the creature's discovery was itself a pretext to legitimize their territorial expansion north.

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Now, this isn't the same, but there definitely seem to be similarities in imagery and language, so we can plausibly say that it's from the same culture; either a different story about the same figure, or perhaps a later part of the same prophecy; if so, we at least have a plausible argument that the Golden Dhyata was from Tural, although I'd be hesitant to associate it to any civilization in particular.

And if that prophecy is indeed connected to the Tender Valley dungeon, then we probably also know exactly which serpent that the myth(s) refer to.

Scree.

Just dropping my theory here:

The use of "wedge" in "Thus, seven wedges must be driven into its back." is a bit strange. Looking through the original Japanese translation, this term is used in very few places. The most notable of which is the House of the Crooked Coin, or "wedge hollow" as it's known in Japanese. This actually does connect it to the lifestream interpretation, as the Dotharl believe jumping into the hollow ends the cycle of reincarnation.


Bonus, crackpot theory, dawntrail 98+ edition:

Sphene is Greek for "wedge"

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Originally Posted by jadeharley

The use of "wedge" in "Thus, seven wedges must be driven into its back." is a bit strange. Looking through the original Japanese translation, this term is used in very few places. The most notable of which is the House of the Crooked Coin, or "wedge hollow" as it's known in Japanese. This actually does connect it to the lifestream interpretation, as the Dotharl believe jumping into the hollow ends the cycle of reincarnation.

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Do we know what the name "House of the Crooked Coin" is supposed to be referencing? It sounds like it should have a particular meaning/intent behind it but there's no obvious association to either the location's appearance or the sidequest where we learn more about it.

It seems like they are building up an entity that would act as a steward or servant to the Lifestream in this serpent "Ouroboros," instating the ebb and flow of all aether. Death is within the natural flow of things, but we've seen several instances now where this does not occur. The Final Days are said to have happened due to stagnation of aether currents, with Zodiark's main role being to reshape the currents of Etheirys and likely the Sea of Stars to a degree. The Thirteenth, similarly, does not experience the recycling of aether since it became the Void. With the introduction of Alexandria, we have seen that man can now circumvent the Lifestream using technology readily accessible to every Alexandrian in Everkeep.

Elidibus refers to a "truth at the edge of sleep" and expresses concern for the future of Etheirys when he knows the Final Days were averted. Could it be that Elidibus saw a stagnation of aether within the Lifestream itself as a result of souls not returning? Or is there something deeper still within the Aetherial Sea? Where is "oblivion" in the framework of the aetherial afterlife and more important than answering why some souls can resist returning to the Lifestream at all is what implications this has on the Lifestream itself.

Azem's key looks and functions like auracite. It can "make manifest one's most fervent desires" which we see consistently across each of its uses: the Milalla; Krile's parents; the Lucavi; the warmachina weapons in Werlyt; the memoriates in the Thirteenth; even Zoraal Ja and Sphene in particular. Azem's key clearly works on a different scale. Ultima is worth mentioning for the simple fact that it predates Hydaelyn and was the source of some of this auracite.

Rounding this back to the Golden Dhyata: could either the Ronkans or Milalla have made it? That would make sense given it was built for translating and either group (assuming they are not the same group) had the means to travel to other worlds. As far as the Great Serpent of Ronka/Tural, the almost identical deification of this screeture makes me think two things: the Ronkans or Preservation were keenly aware of something within the Lifestream, probably as a result of their usage of Azem's key and travels in the Lifestream; and the serpents we have seen could be recreations of this Ouroboros, or maybe they were pets that traveled with them and were later deified. At the end of "It Belongs in a Museum" the Greatest Serpent of Tural is referred to as a guardian between worlds.

The House of the Crooked Coin remains the most suspicious spot in the game. It can't be Allagan, and the only NPC who said it was is blind. Interesting that it continues to be referred to in the MSQ and always in the context of Azem.