Quick thought with paladin and 1.22b

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Originally Posted by Firon

Um... I'm pretty sure str helps reduce the dmg when you block with shields....

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May have been the case pre-1.22, but everything's a floored % reduced now so it doesn't really matter at the moment.

As a PLD, in terms of enmity generation against most WAR's, I beat them hands down, every time (this is not every WAR, I know there are those who are better. There is always someone better then you :P). I don't get picked to tank for the 2 simple reasons of that I have lower HP than a WAR, and I don't do significant damage.

These are both things I personally can live with. I don't want them to nerf WAR, all that i would like to see is Holy Succor go instant cast (for hate and curing myself before the WHMs get there / I'm interrupted), def raised to higher than a WARs, and Hallowed ground to cover magic as well as physical damage, 'cause most bosses attacks have some element associated with them and in a pinch Hallowed ground doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I didn't say STR isn't a tank stat, I said that the design for PLD as it is makes STR not a stat for it. It's design is around turtle tanking, not around DPS tanking, that's WARs gig.

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Considering tank DPS matters to a degree, STR makes sense. As I mentioned, shield blocking should simply scale with some STR so that STR has an additional benefit.

I think we're going to agree to disagree here. I'm fine with STR being a stat for PLD because I have an idea of what it could do to further benefit the job and not look like the odd man out. You want to just replace it with another stat. You're in favor of turtle tanking, whereas I had to learn the hard way that it's not good design unless you have only one tank class in the game. Even XI's PLD had to adjust and favor accuracy and attack because a tank's DPS is directly linked to their ability to generate threat/hate/enmity.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

With the current battle team's approach, Paladin will never be as good as Warrior.

Think about it. What do you need from a tank? Just enough damage mitigation to allow 1-2 healers to keep you alive as well as the rest of the group. Nothing more is necessary, and anything less is unacceptable.

Warrior and Paladin both fulfill those conditions. However, because no more is necessary for a tanking role, improving each classes ability to tank does not make them a more valuable party member. And it is what makes them a valuable party member that gets them in the party, not how well they tank.

The difference between Warrior and Paladin, is their sub-roles. Warrior (when tanking) subs as a DD, while Paladin subs as a healer (and DD to a degree as well).

Because the benefits of Warrior's sub role far outweigh those of the Paladin, it becomes obvious that bringing a Warrior is superior. It wouldn't matter if the Paladin took next to zero damage, or had a million health. Your party will still need healers for the rest of the group, and as long as the same number of healers can keep both tanks alive, they are essentially interchangeable ( as far as their primary tanking role is concerned).

Thus, the only rational way to proceed is in balancing their tanking roles, getting them roughly equal, while giving each class separate and distinct sub roles.

Now, Imagine that every encounter until now did not require tanks. The optimal group would be the Maximum amount of DD, with just enough healing to get by. If you were suddenly to introduce tanks into the game, you would have to choose between Paladin and Warrior.

When you choose a Warrior, you only sacrifice some DD, and because, with the addition of a tank, the group is taking slighly less damage overall and some of your healing potential is wasted (The healers you had were able to heal without a tank, with the addition of a tank, they have an easier job and no longer need to perform as well).

When you choose a Paladin, you Sacrifice a greater amount of DD, but this is supposedly compensated for the Paladin having healing abilities. Because (if we are to suppose the two jobs possess a similar ability to mitigate damage), the group as a whole is still taking slightly less damage overall, the exact same proportion of healing potential is wasted again. The healing abilities of the Paladin should allow one of the healers to take the role as a DD.

To summarize, if you really want to balance these classes, you must focus more on their sub roles, rather than their actual tanking abilities. As tanks, the Paladin and Warrior should be equitable in mitigation and survivability for both physical and magical damage. However, the choice should lie in which sub role fits your group more. The Paladin being part tank and part healer, should allow the group to approach encounters with less dedicated healers than a group using a Warrior tank. The Warrior being part tank and part DD should be able to deal enough damage to justify the extra healing necessary from not using a Paladin.

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Great rationale. They need to make PLDs better healers so parties can ditch one (both) of its healers.

What Plds should be mad about is that SE isn't releasing any large / alliance based content. In a very large group, people will want the best tank possible and don't care about if the tank is a good damage dealer or not. That's the place where a turtle tank, like Pld, should be shining.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

What Plds should be mad about is that SE isn't releasing any large / alliance based content. In a very large group, people will want the best tank possible and don't care about if the tank is a good damage dealer or not. That's the place where a turtle tank, like Pld, should be shining.

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That's more an attempt to sidestep the problem instead of solve it. Not to mention that having a "best" tank should not be the goal. Multiple tank classes are a good thing. Just like multiple healers.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

That's more an attempt to sidestep the problem instead of solve it. Not to mention that having a "best" tank should not be the goal. Multiple tank classes are a good thing. Just like multiple healers.

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Exactly why we have two healing classes.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

That's more an attempt to sidestep the problem instead of solve it. Not to mention that having a "best" tank should not be the goal. Multiple tank classes are a good thing. Just like multiple healers.

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I'm just saying Pld has their own niche, but SE doesn't provide content for that niche.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I'm just saying Pld has their own niche, but SE doesn't provide content for that niche.

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There's that, but content like the Primals should be that niche shouldn't it, single mob single tank, where PLD supposedly should shine, but nope it's WAR content, no DRGs MNKs or PLDs allowed lol

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

There's that, but content like the Primals should be that niche shouldn't it, single mob single tank, where PLD supposedly should shine, but nope it's WAR content, no DRGs MNKs or PLDs allowed lol

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I don't really get why Pld should shine in single mob content. And the situation I described can be multi mob content too.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I don't really get why Pld should shine in single mob content. And the situation I described can be multi mob content too.

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My point was just that, WARs niche seems to be any tanking situation where dmg output serves a purpose, unless they plan to make some content where you need to NOT kill things there is no tanking niche where PLD can shine, so WAR shouldn't have a niche that's pushing PLD out of the game.

It's really not too relevant just yet, and the arguments will wait(at least on my part) until after the upcoming changes are in place and we can see if it makes PLD "as good" in the present content as a WAR.

I'd rather both be eligible for a tank spot in a group, using the fact that one uses sword & board and the other uses a two hander as more flavor or style of tanking instead of inventing niches for both. Niche tanking sucks in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'd rather both be eligible for a tank spot in a group, using the fact that one uses sword & board and the other uses a two hander as more flavor or style of tanking instead of inventing niches for both. Niche tanking sucks in the long run.

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I think that's what everyone really wants, is just "balance" but everyone hears "balance" and thinks "nerf war" and starts going nuts, nerfing the OPd jobs in this game will always draw alot of debate, it's mostly because content that was designed to be challenging actually will be cause no job will outperform any other, god wouldn't that be nice. Every job can fill the role it was intended for with equal skill so that players can actually play in their style on a job they enjoy instead of the "forced" jobs that always happen.