Stop the WoWificaton (ui mods)

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

But the more people who use them, the more people expect others to use them and it becomes a gatekeeping issue to progress in high end content. I know it for a fact, I've seen it in other games and it's already becoming a problem that will only grow. It's time to put the foot down.

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Out of curiosity. A lot of Statics and FC's require members to use Discord Chat for high end content. Do you personally want SE to ban people using Discord as well since its a "3rd party tool" that can cause Gatekeeping?

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I genuinely do not understand what you are saying. So I could report someone for requiring me to have certain addons to join their static?

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Right now it seems you're creating a hypothetical... BUT if something like that were to happen... IF someone is daft enough to send you a message that explicitly states that you are being excluded because of this reason, THEN yes you should go ahead and report. Again, bear in mind that SE rarely reveals actions taken against individual players based on reporting (I think they have addressed the streamer they suspended since it was so public already), so you're never going to get instantaneous retributive "justice" from reporting.

However, it's still a good idea to report so that on their end... IF they start seeing an increased volume of similar reports, THEN it might force their hand to do something about it.

I'm pro add-ons so...I can't really oppose the idea of having them. But anyone who uses them currently is rolling the dice, and it may come back to haunt them some day. Still, I'd like to have them officially.

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Originally Posted by Rowde

Right now it seems you're creating a hypothetical... BUT if something like that were to happen... IF someone is daft enough to send you a message that explicitly states that you are being excluded because of this reason, THEN yes you should go ahead and report. Again, bear in mind that SE rarely reveals actions taken against individual players based on reporting (I think they have addressed the streamer they suspended since it was so public already), so you're never going to get instantaneous retributive "justice" from reporting.

However, it's still a good idea to report so that on their end... IF they start seeing an increased volume of similar reports, THEN it might force their hand to do something about it.

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I am noticing a trend here. The fact that this could happen seems improbable to some of you it seems? Players requirement of other players to have MANY third party things is a norm and has been for year in many other MMORPG's. It is standard, daily procedure. I am lobby to stop this slippery slope at the top. It's one of the things I am very passionate about, that I believe can destroy and MMO community. That and mythic+ timed dungeons.

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Originally Posted by PMSJordan

Out of curiosity. A lot of Statics and FC's require members to use Discord Chat for high end content. Do you personally want SE to ban people using Discord as well since its a "3rd party tool" that can cause Gatekeeping?

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As I understand the terms of service, third party tools are not in violation. Third party tools that directly interact with and manipulate the games code, are, and are easily detectable and bannable if they would just act.

That said, ironically one of the final influences to purchase a PS5 this month was the announcement that native discord support is coming to PS5 by the end of the year as Sony and Discord have reached a massive deal.

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Originally Posted by PMSJordan

Out of curiosity. A lot of Statics and FC's require members to use Discord Chat for high end content. Do you personally want SE to ban people using Discord as well since its a "3rd party tool" that can cause Gatekeeping?

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There's also the option of SE looking at 3rd party tools, examining why ppl are using it, and then seeing if there's a way they can just integrate it into the game.

I strongly suspect that a lot of the QoL adjustments we've gotten in game, especially for crafters and gatherers, were integrated because of the existence of some of the 3rd party tools.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I won't name them or the link them but there is now a super popular ui modification, only available on PC that is making the game look like a popular WoW ui. I think this is a step too far (arguably damage meters already were) and since they are technically a violation of the games terms of service, its time to put the foot down and enforce the already existing rules.

It puts players who actually play by rules and/or on console at a significant disadvantage on higher end content.

Either change the TOS to allow these addons or actually enforce the fact that they are against the rules (preferred option.)

Streamers and youtubers openly defy the rules of the game using these modifications and nothing is done about it. If we are going to ignore these things, please let me know which rules are breakable and which are not.

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Personally, I don't mind anyone using any sfw mod as long as they never harassed anyone with it.
If someone is playing the game peacefully with a mod that makes it look like WoW but never actually harassed anyone out there then there is literally 0 reasons to punish said player. After all, the game is for fun and if the person is having fun without hurting others then where is the problem?

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

Personally, I don't mind anyone using any sfw mod as long as they never harassed anyone with it.
If someone is playing the game peacefully with a mod that makes it look like WoW but never actually harassed anyone out there then there is literally 0 reasons to punish said player. After all, the game is for fun and if the person is having fun without hurting others then where is the problem?

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If the person never harasses anyone then nobody knows they're using said mod, ergo they have no problem.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I am noticing a trend here. The fact that this could happen seems improbable to some of you it seems? Players requirement of other players to have MANY third party things is a norm and has been for year in many other MMORPG's. It is standard, daily procedure. I am lobby to stop this slippery slope at the top. It's one of the things I am very passionate about, that I believe can destroy and MMO community. That and mythic+ timed dungeons.




As I understand the terms of service, third party tools are not in violation. Third party tools that directly interact with and manipulate the games code, are, and are easily detectable and bannable if they would just act.

That said, ironically one of the final influences to purchase a PS5 this month was the announcement that native discord support is coming to PS5 by the end of the year as Sony and Discord have reached a massive deal.

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While you are correct that it may be common place, it is much, much harder for it to be done in game through any chat channels. The game is generally well moderated, especially if there's in-game harassment going on. You're more likely to encounter this kind of behavior through game-adjacent channels, such as Discord servers.

As far as third-party tools, Yoshi-P has used Excel spreadsheets as an example for what could count as a third-party tool, and we all know Excel doesn't modify the game in any way. Discord has been brought up, and that counts, because it's a tool made by a third-party that could be giving an advantage to players without any means to chat. However, it's mostly un-enforceable as stated, and is mostly used there for legal reasons that protect themselves from blowback. If they called out a specific app or mod in the terms of service, then people would use something else. In any case, many of the bans SE does is for harassment, not for third-party tools.

Im curious if anyone has ever heard of a situation where someone was declined from joining a group due to being on console and/or playing with controller. That is the crux of my worry here.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

It isn't an option for those on console and I expect console players to only go up in numbers as PS5's become easier to get and the inevitable xbox version next year. Even taking the console argument away, SE has historically done a great job making addons not feel necessary to make good progress. But the more people who use them, the more people expect others to use them and it becomes a gatekeeping issue to progress in high end content. I know it for a fact, I've seen it in other games and it's already becoming a problem that will only grow. Don't use damage meters? No invite. Don't use addons to automark things? No invite. It's time to put the foot down.

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Then report them, hope those damage meters were worth a ban on their account. Now they can go back to WoW.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Im curious if anyone has ever heard of a situation where someone was declined from joining a group due to being on console and/or playing with controller. That is the crux of my worry here.

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A lot of people play with a controller, even on PC. You'd never know the difference. I have never heard of anyone being declined or removed from a group just because they played with a controller. That's one of the best parts of FF XIV. Both are viable options.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Im curious if anyone has ever heard of a situation where someone was declined from joining a group due to being on console and/or playing with controller. That is the crux of my worry here.

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I have actually indeed seen a few statics that had a hard requirement that members use cactbot, which is unavailable on console and is effectively a cheat program.

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

I know but this deliberate drama will give it even more exposure, knowing people like asmon sometimes cover forumpages like this one.

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People will need to get banned before Asmongold covers this. He shoots for the most controversial drivel he can find. He is a millionaire so this obviously works. (Zenos voice) Pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Im curious if anyone has ever heard of a situation where someone was declined from joining a group due to being on console and/or playing with controller. That is the crux of my worry here.

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This game has been widely praised for its controller support, with many PC players preferring it.

IMO when UI mods start displaying data that the game doesn't do on its own or begins running game commands automatically it starts branching over to being a type of cheat program.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Am well aware of their don't ask don't tell policy. Point of the thread is that it's finally gotten too popular and gone too far and something needs to change.

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They can't do anything.. you see a popular streamer with meters and UI mods and it really bothers you that much? Report them.

They cannot and will not add the means to peek into people's computers.. nor would I keep the game installed if they would.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I have actually indeed seen a few statics that had a hard requirement that members use cactbot, which is unavailable on console and is effectively a cheat program.

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That is incredibly disappointing and tells me all I need to know.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

They can't do anything.. you see a popular streamer with meters and UI mods and it really bothers you that much? Report them.

They cannot and will not add the means to peek into people's computers.. nor would I keep the game installed if they would.

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They can and many games have and do. The battle.net client for WoW has done this for over 10 years. Fortnite does this. PubG does this. Call of Duty does this (with varying degrees of success) many other games do this.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

That is incredibly disappointing and tells me all I need to know.

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It doesn't really. You're basing an assumption off of somebody's anecdote. I would highly recommend waiting to get to end game raiding before making conclusions on what it means. Not to mention the above mod is not a UI mod, but it reads game data and does mechanic call-outs for those using it.

Imagine taking time out of your day to complain about UI mods of all things.

Imagine.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

They can't do anything.. you see a popular streamer with meters and UI mods and it really bothers you that much? Report them.

They cannot and will not add the means to peek into people's computers.. nor would I keep the game installed if they would.

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Cannot is incorrect. They choose not to. It is not illegal as some have claimed, other games in all the regions that FF14 is in have these features. Will not, could be for multiple reasons. Simplest is probably the same as why they don't ban more cheaters. It isn't worth it to them.

UI of wow is terrible why someone use an UI mods like that?! final fantasy 14 is much more clean to your screen than any other mmo, besides you can change interface of everything in game with no additional addon. i agree! let not turn this game into wow cause if wow failed today, is because of fanbase who accept anything blizz trows at them. there's no reason square would take same path to fail too like blizz.
wow is funny even the failures of game, players try turn it into some kind of achievement. wow its not a game, its a cult, a "religion" (with all respect) that players tell all the time how good game is, no matter how mutch effort blizz put to make game impossible to have fun with.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

If we are going to ignore these things, please let me know which rules are breakable and which are not.

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They've already told us they look the other way as long as the mods aren't used to grief/harass other players and don't offer game play advantages.

UI mods aren't doing either, they're just offering more customization to how the UI looks. I'm not using mods myself but it's really tempting when it comes to fixing party frames (my one big complaint with the default UI).

If you're seeing more than a UI modification, that could be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Because I have seen this all before in MMORPG's. It's only a matter of time before the community makes certain addons mandatory. It's a trend I've all seen before. It's becoming far too normalized and accepted.

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The idea that addons are mandatory anywhere is in your own head. Plenty of people in WoW conquer mythic content (mythic plus, and raids both) and PvP on a stock UI.

I do believe that what truly happened here is that you saw a video of a really cool UI mod, realized it was only for PC, and got quite jealous over the fact that PC folks can do super-cool mod to their UI, while you sit there with a console and no mods. Not being able to deal with those feelings, you turned it into a tirade against addons in general. Be honest, now.

Rarely do I ever quote Shakespeare, despite being a bookworm, but now's the time, and you gotta take these moments when you can get 'em:


"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"




In case you have no idea what I'm talking about, you can read about it here, if you care: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_la...much,_methinks. The phrase is used in everyday speech to indicate doubt of someone's sincerity, especially regarding the truth of a strong denial.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

That is incredibly disappointing and tells me all I need to know.

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The only thing this tells anyone is that you know very little on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Breakbeat

The idea that addons are mandatory anywhere is in your own head. Plenty of people in WoW conquer mythic content (mythic plus, and raids both) and PvP on a stock UI.

I do believe that what truly happened here is that you saw a video of a really cool UI mod, realized it was only for PC, and got quite jealous over the fact that PC folks can do super-cool mod to their UI, while you sit there with a console and no mods. Not being able to deal with those feelings, you turned it into a tirade against addons in general. Be honest, now.

Rarely do I ever quote Shakespeare, despite being a bookworm, but now's the time, and you gotta take these moments when you can get 'em:


"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"




In case you have no idea what I'm talking about, you can read about it here, if you care: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_la...much,_methinks. The phrase is used in everyday speech to indicate doubt of someone's sincerity, especially regarding the truth of a strong denial.

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No one raids above normal in WoW on the stock ui. No one.

I have XIV on console and PS5 so I have nothing to be jealous of. I work all day at a desk and prefer to play on console. I think console experience is superior for this game.

If something offers someone an apparent advantage, be it literal or just thematic preference; they will take it. There isn't anything you can do about it and stressing the point will net you nothing either. Except the closed ears of the crowd maybe. The final say on anything is with the staff; and they are very very unlikely (as in not) to pay this any mind. Japan generally and Yoshida et al, all have a high regard for wow. They aren't going to actively hunt these things and dissuade the demographic from subscribing.

This will become their wow 2.0 and a large part of that emigrating community will undoubtedly use their preferred UI, if not all of them. That's not going to change. How many people follow suit will depend on how influential that population is in reality and how appealing the UI is. Reputed merit is all that matters to a collective. Artificially influenced or not is irrelevant. Your ''crusade'' is a waste of your time and ours as a result.

As long as players do not have an advantage over others, I don't really see the problem here. I do not use mods myself but the UI is somewhat rigid and I understand. There's other mods that are more troublesome in nature.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

As long as players do not have an advantage over others, I don't really see the problem here. I do not use mods myself but the UI is somewhat rigid and I understand. There's other mods that are more troublesome in nature.

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Once you open the gates theres no hold more, so no... you can modify enough here.

Complaining about how people set their UI. I've seen it all now.

Actually not yet, not until I see someone start a thread about how people who color their glams red are ruining the game.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

If something offers someone an apparent advantage, be it literal or just thematic preference; they will take it. There isn't anything you can do about it and stressing the point will net you nothing either. Except the closed ears of the crowd maybe. The final say on anything is with the staff; and they are very very unlikely (as in not) to pay this any mind. Japan generally and Yoshida et al, all have a high regard for wow. They aren't going to actively hunt these things and dissuade the demographic from subscribing.

This will become their wow 2.0 and a large part of that emigrating community will undoubtedly use their preferred UI, if not all of them. That's not going to change. How many people follow suit will depend on how influential that population is in reality and how appealing the UI is. Reputed merit is all that matters to a collective. Artificially influenced or not is irrelevant. Your ''crusade'' is a waste of your time and ours as a result.

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A whole lot of assumptions in this. Unlike WoW, FFXIV is multi-platform and the development team has made it clear over the years that game balance is very important to them.

Again, there's already precedent for them making an adjustments to a system based on how they saw PC players being able to quickly utilize it in a way that console players were not able to on streams, like they did with Waymark system. However, afaik, this change didn't involve any bans. They made adjustments to the in game system to give Console players access to features PC players were using. They made it so marks couldn't be adjusted mid-battle, added more marks that could be used in later phases if necessary, and added save slots for mark layouts.

If this UI thing is problematic in some way, such as giving PC players access to more information that would normally be obfuscated by default, and enough ppl are being blatant about it... then it is likely that the development team will do something about. However, that doesn't necessarily mean bans, it could also mean giving in and adjusting the UI/tools in game to even the playing field for console players and pc players that don't use mods.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Complaining about how people set their UI. I've seen it all now.

Actually not yet, not until I see someone start a thread about how people who color their glams red are ruining the game.

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I don't think that is the issue.
He is complain about 3rd party tool.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I won't name them or the link them but there is now a super popular ui modification, only available on PC that is making the game look like a popular WoW ui. I think this is a step too far (arguably damage meters already were) and since they are technically a violation of the games terms of service, its time to put the foot down and enforce the already existing rules.

It puts players who actually play by rules and/or on console at a significant disadvantage on higher end content.

Either change the TOS to allow these addons or actually enforce the fact that they are against the rules (preferred option.)

Streamers and youtubers openly defy the rules of the game using these modifications and nothing is done about it. If we are going to ignore these things, please let me know which rules are breakable and which are not.

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as we WoW players increase in numbers over the ff14 players, we will begin to mutate your game into OUR game. Like a cancer, we will spread, and spread, and spread. Next you will see 4 raids an expansion, then 5, then less story, and less story, then you will see the final fantasy token. The process has already began. Our streamers are already getting more views, our ideas spreading. Soon there will be no ff14, it will be WoW14. We only getting started.


https://i.imgur.com/TlBMUlU.png

If it's just a UI modification, I don't see the big deal. Awhile back, SE left in a functionality that let you enlarge text in message bubbles (not something you can do from settings). It was awesome for low-vision players like me. Then the next patch they stopped your ability to enlarge that until enough people were like "hey I kinda need that back" and they added it back in. So if this is a popular mod that somehow simplifies a process (I'm a console player so I have no idea what it is or does), then I'd imagine SE would want to look at what it does specifically and how they can integrate that into the existing UI.

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Originally Posted by AusarViled

as we WoW players increase in numbers over the ff14 players, we will begin to mutate your game into OUR game. Like a cancer, we will spread, and spread, and spread. Next you will see 4 raids an expansion, then 5, then less story, and less story, then you will see the final fantasy token. The process has already began. Our streamers are already getting more views, our ideas spreading. Soon there will be no ff14, it will be WoW14. We only getting started.


https://i.imgur.com/TlBMUlU.png

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Oh look! A daydreaming troll!

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

They can and many games have and do. The battle.net client for WoW has done this for over 10 years. Fortnite does this. PubG does this. Call of Duty does this (with varying degrees of success) many other games do this.

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You need to remember this is a Japanese game developed by a Japanese company. I don't even know what their laws are regarding this. They may not even be legally able to do it.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Unfortunately, this may run the risk of creating community expectation for mods. That expectation already exists for certain mods and websites that measure damage. Communities in this game expect you to be familiar with measuring damage using third-party tools, otherwise you’re left out if you don’t get good numbers using those tools. That’s just an example, but it could easily happen to UI mods that cater to the exact same individuals. I don’t think Square Enix is going to do anything about it. It’s safer for the company to be oblivious to it. The best hope for FFXIV right now is for the console version to grow in popularity so that more endgame communities cater to console players that can’t use third-party mods.

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You cannot compare texture and UI mods to parsers because they impact the game in very different ways. Logs are often used as resume to gauge your performance not unlike applying to a job. Players want to have a general idea of what to expect if they're going to accept you, especially should you be applying to higher level groups. Incidentally, more casual minded statics typically won't care about your logs for that expect reason.

UI mods will neither impact your performance nor your potential party's. They're literally nothing more than convenience for players who prefer a different UI layout than FF offers. Which, to be fair, is understandable if you're coming over to a new game after several years.

In fact, Limit Max has outright said he's had several people genuinely eager to try out FF because of this UI mod as they just couldn't get used to how different FF looks after playing WoW for so many years. As far as I'm concerned, let them do whatever so long as it isn't hurting anyway. If anything, these mods should tell SE to implement the changes themselves.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

That is incredibly disappointing and tells me all I need to know.

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Requiring something like Cactbot is exceedingly rare and speaks more to how poor the group is as a whole to be that dependent on a program. Very few statics have hard requirements on third party programs. The only exception is Titan gaols in UwU.

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Originally Posted by AusarViled

as we WoW players increase in numbers over the ff14 players, we will begin to mutate your game into OUR game. Like a cancer, we will spread, and spread, and spread. Next you will see 4 raids an expansion, then 5, then less story, and less story, then you will see the final fantasy token. The process has already began. Our streamers are already getting more views, our ideas spreading. Soon there will be no ff14, it will be WoW14. We only getting started.


https://i.imgur.com/TlBMUlU.png

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Rofl...complete comedy...

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Originally Posted by AusarViled

as we WoW players increase in numbers over the ff14 players, we will begin to mutate your game into OUR game. Like a cancer, we will spread, and spread, and spread. Next you will see 4 raids an expansion, then 5, then less story, and less story, then you will see the final fantasy token. The process has already began. Our streamers are already getting more views, our ideas spreading. Soon there will be no ff14, it will be WoW14. We only getting started.


https://i.imgur.com/TlBMUlU.png

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More raids would actually help the game alot. Despite the dev's best efforts, endgame rotational gameplay is the game's strongest loop.

oh 100%, but most of the players are casuals, and only want content to be easier and cry to SE for easier content- this is mostly true for most mmos. I would personally want more raids if the rewards where actually worth it- currently not for most mmos