Calling players bad because they're slow at improving...

Oh look they're using disabled people as a crutch for their troll post again. This is getting really old. Running out of ideas?

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Picture it Paglth'an lvl 80.

Black Mage in the party is casting f3 > b3 > f3 > b3 and on packs flare > freeze > flare > freeze > flare

Me: hey man would you like some tips on your rotation?

Blm: .........

Me: You know you could really up your dps with a couple little tweeks

Blm: dude, shut up, I'm fine, it's just a dungeon...

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You asked if he wanted help and let him determine if he did. You were nothing but polite. He is right that it's just a dungeon, but he could have been a lot nicer in his reply. Unfortunately, you get that random one or two who are going to bristle even if you're polite.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

You asked if he wanted help and let him determine if he did. You were nothing but polite. He is right that it's just a dungeon, but he could have been a lot nicer in his reply. Unfortunately, you get that random one or two who are going to bristle even if you're polite.

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People have a hard time changing their minds once they have formed an opinion. For example, see why-facts-dont-change-our-minds.

As a result, players tend to think their way is best even when they have no idea what the best way is. It's just human nature and the true reason why there is so much conflict in the world.

I would never call someone bad.

I use

>.>

Instead. Much more subtle and inoffensive. Then I try to explain and/or suffer and endure.

Unless they are purposely trolling because then I hope they have thick skin since my written words are registered weapons.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Picture it Paglth'an lvl 80.

Black Mage in the party is casting f3 > b3 > f3 > b3 and on packs flare > freeze > flare > freeze > flare

Me: hey man would you like some tips on your rotation?

Blm: .........

Me: You know you could really up your dps with a couple little tweeks

Blm: dude, shut up, I'm fine, it's just a dungeon...

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That’s a blatant issue with the game as a whole, it’s so freaking afraid to alienate anyone thru it’s content it never challenges until you directly seek it in Min ilvl or the designated “hard content” areas. you get people so use to not being challenged they make a instanced longer. This happened a lot when Road to 80 was applied. Some of which lacked job stones and even incomplete kits

The Paglth’an example is sad cuz none of the 80s dungeons are not much harder than the solo instances, perhaps even easier

I agree, I should be allowed to wipe the group over and over and over and over and over to the exact same mechanic every time. When asked to get better or avoid said issue I should be allowed to screech and rant at them for suggesting that I might be able to play better.

I know it’s your sub but it’s also my sub too. So I shouldn’t be forced to do team stuff in a team setting and if you call me out you are the worst kind of player….

I mean that’s how I read this.

What exactly constitutes a bad player then?
Do you have to literally not be capable of ever clearing content to be bad?

I guess it's a matter of how slow we're talking about, but like if we have to spend four plus hours in A9S because you still fail at the brambles and don't know how to stack and run around like a headless chicken during the AoE's then yeah maybe you're actually just bad.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Picture it Paglth'an lvl 80.

Black Mage in the party is casting f3 > b3 > f3 > b3 and on packs flare > freeze > flare > freeze > flare

Me: hey man would you like some tips on your rotation?

Blm: .........

Me: You know you could really up your dps with a couple little tweeks

Blm: dude, shut up, I'm fine, it's just a dungeon...

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I've seen SAM players do the backstep, ranged attack, charge combo as if that's their main attack combo.
At lvl 70+, and 80 SAM players standing in front of the bosses and dying repeatedly over and over again to boss frontal AoE's.

I've never actually seen a '' Frost Mage '' yet tho lol.
But I've seen people who just spam fire 1 even at high level.

Loads of MNK's and DRG's too that don't do any positionals, and NIN that don't use Trick Attack consistently on CD which triggers me a lot if I am playing NIN because usually they do the first one right away and then if I want to line them up they just end up screwing my rotation up too.

Those players are just bad, and I don't really care if it upsets them because they're not even making an actual effort to play well.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Outside of Extremes or Savage (or for some, Ultimate) watching a video guide is not needed. At all. The mechanics are simple enough to be learned on the fly, even if it takes a few attempts.

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that fails to account for the fact, that people DO indeed like to go into things blind at times, even savage+ content.
I dont like knowing an encounter beforehand so that the only thing that matters is strict memorisation and execution, i like to have to think at least for the first few things what the mechanic right now wants from me quickly.
If you dont want people who may or may not be blind to the encounter, make a party finder, specificy that you must have watched a guide, and do content that way.
Instead of assuming people in the DF will do that
EDIT: Welp, somehow i qouted the wrong message...

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Originally Posted by SirCadogan

I agree, I should be allowed to wipe the group over and over and over and over and over to the exact same mechanic every time. When asked to get better or avoid said issue I should be allowed to screech and rant at them for suggesting that I might be able to play better.

I know it’s your sub but it’s also my sub too. So I shouldn’t be forced to do team stuff in a team setting and if you call me out you are the worst kind of player….

I mean that’s how I read this.

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Your strawman analogy is just plain silly. Congrats on raising your post count by one.

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Originally Posted by ZeraSkiratea

that fails to account for the fact, that people DO indeed like to go into things blind at times, even savage+ content.
I don't like knowing an encounter beforehand so that the only thing that matters is strict memorisation and execution, i like to have to think at least for the first few things what the mechanic right now wants from me quickly.
If you don't want people who may or may not be blind to the encounter, make a party finder, specify that you must have watched a guide, and do content that way.
Instead of assuming people in the DF will do that

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I feel that's fine. I enjoy going into dungeons blind too. However, if the duty/raid is extreme or savage, I feel I owe it to my fellow players to be aware of the mechanics. I call it gamer courtesy.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

However, if the duty/raid is extreme or savage, I feel I owe it to my fellow players to be aware of the mechanics. I call it gamer courtesy.

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I can watch videos all day and they won't do me a lick of good until I've seen the fight firsthand. My static is aware of this so we our first night is a series of blind pulls and then pull up some vids if a mechanic has us stumped. Having that context helps enormously since we can filter out the flashy VFX from the true mechanics.

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Originally Posted by ZeraSkiratea

that fails to account for the fact, that people DO indeed like to go into things blind at times, even savage+ content.
I dont like knowing an encounter beforehand so that the only thing that matters is strict memorisation and execution, i like to have to think at least for the first few things what the mechanic right now wants from me quickly.
If you dont want people who may or may not be blind to the encounter, make a party finder, specificy that you must have watched a guide, and do content that way.
Instead of assuming people in the DF will do that

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This exact thing can be said for wanting a blind run.

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Originally Posted by Ativan

You must think you are very hilarious. But no, I am simply responding to this disappointing video made by Zepla

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You made some good points in your post, but none of those bad reasons to call someone bad met the criteria that Zepla presented. Here are some highlights from the video that I can recall off the top of my head (I watched it last week):

• There's a difference between playing badly and being a bad player. Even the best players play badly from time to time.
• Playing badly doesn't make you a bad player, as long as you're willing to improve. Playing badly is the first step towards playing well.
• If you find yourself having to complete every leveling trial on "Very Easy" difficulty while you're leveling, then you're probably playing badly.
• Bad players are the ones who double down on their mistakes, refusing to acknowledge or correct them.

Nowhere in her video did she suggest that anyone should be calling anyone else a bad player for simply failing mechanics or because they don't want to engage in Savage/Extreme/Ultimate content.

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Originally Posted by Ativan

... is supremely unconstructive, pointless, and only exacerbates the issue. Telling someone that they're bad when you're so impatient as to ridicule them after they fail to the same mechanic three times; telling someone they're bad when they declined your unwarranted, unasked for, and unprompted "feedback"; telling someone they're bad when they just want a stress-free, casual experience of this game - these are all behaviors that are rotten to the core. They reek of elitism and ableism, and belie a hollow core of morality, in which any shred of empathy can not be found.

It is therefore beyond disappointing to see community leaders and content creators chide those who are slower at improving as being 'bad'.

First of all, not everyone is able to learn at the same speed as you. While it might take you only two or three tries to comprehend a mechanic, someone might take fifty times - and that's OK. This game is not a job and there is no metric for players to meet. We are here to play the game, not to fulfill some arbitrary performance metric like in an Amazon warehouse.

Second of all, people can and do forget mechanics over time that they have not seen frequently. Not everyone no-lifes this game for 10 hours a day to instantly recognize every mechanic that they see. Do not assume that people are locked in the basement as you are to be able to perfectly memorize every single mechanic and rotation in the game.

Third of all, it is the height of ableism to assume that everyone playing this game can dodge AoEs perfectly all the time. People do and will age, and reaction times do grow slower. Complaining and insulting a player as "bad" because they stood in an AoE can and often are instances of ableism and ageism, by indirectly insulting their decreased reaction speed as they grow older.

What makes a "bad player" is not failure at improving. What makes a "bad player" are those that go around personally harassing, insulting, and picking fights with other players because of some self-conceived notion of good and bad. Get off your high horse and let players enjoy the game the way they want to.

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This reminds me soooooooooooooo much of WoW. We will get a huge chance to see who is toxic and who is helpful by the answers on this thread.

/Grabs popcorn and sits back.

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Originally Posted by GeminiReed

I can watch videos all day and they won't do me a lick of good until I've seen the fight firsthand. My static is aware of this so we our first night is a series of blind pulls and then pull up some vids if a mechanic has us stumped. Having that context helps enormously since we can filter out the flashy VFX from the true mechanics.

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*nods* There is no right way to approach content. Your way is just as valid as mine. The point is, we are both trying to be good players.

Honestly, I seldom totally understand the mechanics after viewing a video. All they do is give me a heads up on what to expect when I dive in. It's only after I see things in action do the mechanics click.

Well I guess I am bad. A random lancer in sastasha told me so tonight.

Me on my baby Conjurer. Still very much learning to heal. Him pulling everything in sight and not waiting for the tank. SO when he ran into the room with all the pirates WAY ahead of everyone. I um...well I stayed back with the tank and let him reap the rewards of his actions. Lets just say what he had to say to me was Colorful. ;)

I like be a fail in game and a success IRL. :p i don't collect trophies, and will never be top 5 FF14 ULTIMATE clearer....so what? Behind someone that its not 100% dedicated to gaming is a successful friend, parents, and professionals.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

I like be a fail in game and a success IRL. :p i don't collect trophies, and will never be top 5 FF14 ULTIMATE clearer....so what? Behind someone that its not 100% dedicated to gaming is a successful friend, parents, and professionals.

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So you “like be a fail in game”. Don’t suppose you have any consideration for the others you play with? Considering this is a multiplayer game.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

So you “like be a fail in game”. Don’t suppose you have any consideration for the others you play with? Considering this is a multiplayer game.

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i have consideration for those who play this game sure! i dont have consideration for competition, last time i tryed compete, i lost i felt miserable. I don't have anything against who play.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

i have consideration for those who play this game sure! i dont have consideration for competition, last time i tryed compete, i lost i felt miserable. I don't have anything against who play.

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It’s not about competing. It’s about Tryin to do well. You tried to show pride in failure. I questioned that. The general player base doesn’t expect raid level dps. But there’s definitely players out there who perform horribly and don’t care. I’ve seen a black mage in lvl 80 dungeons casting only blizzard 3 and thunder 4. That’s not even making a solid attempt

Its not pride exactly. Sure players need improve, i mean...i had past bad experience with competition, cause the winners (not all) do bully to those whos not Hight as them, but i understand that we all need improve enough to do well in game and anything...its just...not my cup of tea. But if you need get better in game, sure its need to be done. Competition reminds me a few traumas i had, but I'm not saying if you like do it, you shouldn't. Its just....i cant expect a beginner perform with same expertise as those who perform for much more time. i tried compete swimming, tried compete in marital arts....failed every competition i had, wasn't a good experience, so i stopped doing it.

the need to get better its a must, show off...its not.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

Its not pride exactly. Sure players need improve, i mean...i had past bad experience with competition, cause the winners (not all) do bully to those whos not Hight as them, but i understand that we all need improve enough to do well in game and anything...its just...not my cup of tea. But if you need get better in game, sure its need to be done. Competition reminds me a few traumas i had, but I'm not saying if you like do it, you shouldn't. Its just....i cant expect a beginner perform with same expertise as those who perform for much more time. i tried compete swimming, tried compete in marital arts....failed every competition i had, wasn't a good experience, so i stopped doing it.

the need to get better its a must, show off...its not.

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Thing is there’s waaaay more casuals than top tier players so there’s def more room for you to intermingle with that crowd.

Problem arises when the friction of those trying to compete get stuck with 7/8 people who dgaf. Knowing your lane as well as content that you have no business being in IS what I consider a good players in an mmo.

It’s not fair to step into high-end/savage/ultimate when you’re not ready to compete on the level of your fellow teammates. People who do so and have no business being there yet is what I consider a bad player in an mmo.

There’s a lot of tools that exist when you’re ready. Don’t be the selfish bad that hasn’t even read the tooltips but believe you’re owed the same rewards as a high-end player.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

Thing is there’s waaaay more casuals than top tier players so there’s def more room for you to intermingle with that crowd.

Problem arises when the friction of those trying to compete get stuck with 7/8 people who dgaf. Knowing your lane as well as content that you have no business being in IS what I consider a good players in an mmo.

It’s not fair to step into high-end/savage/ultimate when you’re not ready to compete on the level of your fellow teammates. People who do so and have no business being there yet is what I consider a bad player in an mmo.

There’s a lot of tools that exist when you’re ready. Don’t be the selfish bad that hasn’t even read the tooltips but believe you’re owed the same rewards as a high-end player.

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yes i understood what you mean, and appreciate. I agreed.

I was at a bar venue on Friday night and forgot to remove my <<The Legend>> title, my UWU Sword, and my TEA Shield. Before I knew it, random catgirls started gravitating towards me. Soon I was talking to ladies left and right, more than I could handle. Making eye contact as they walk by and whispering "Triple Legend" would send them into a spasm of ecstasy.

I couldn't help but spied one depressed looking lad in the corner, watching me with sad puppy eyes. I made my way over to him, put my arms around his shoulders and asked "<<The Ultimate Legend>>?". He meekly nodded.

As I pulled him to the bar and towards my lady friends, I whispered "we all started somewhere like there. Someday you'll hit it big. Parse runs and clout chasing are your friends". "Bartender, G4 Tinctures for my friend here, he needs them.".

I then introduce my new buddy to the girls and announced "he's on adds and his group is going for the clear this weekend!". A chorus of ooohs and aahhhs filled the room. He lit up like a Christmas tree, and for that one night he was treated like a king.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

Thing is there’s waaaay more casuals than top tier players so there’s def more room for you to intermingle with that crowd.

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I'd even go so far that some of the players some posters paint as some elitist tryhards are purely casual players as well

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Originally Posted by Myrany

Well I guess I am bad. A random lancer in sastasha told me so tonight.

Me on my baby Conjurer. Still very much learning to heal. Him pulling everything in sight and not waiting for the tank. SO when he ran into the room with all the pirates WAY ahead of everyone. I um...well I stayed back with the tank and let him reap the rewards of his actions. Lets just say what he had to say to me was Colorful. ;)

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Some dum dums in low level instances forget that baby healers only have a handful of healing skills at low level. A level 17 Conjurer doesn't have lillies, Divine Benison, Tetragrammation, Regen, Medica II, Cure III, or even Cure II. The skills they do have are barely even touched as a last resort at high level because they're so ineffective. The amount of abuse that healers endure in the low level instances for failing to meet the expectations of level 80 players that were unlucky enough to wind up in Satasha is definitely excessive.

Name calling is uncalled for, I just /Vkick the person without warning. I will let a player cart 3 times before I vote kick them out. That count refreshes for every boss / mechanic. If your new and whipe, that’s fine. We will explain. Whipe again, your on last air, because we just explained. Fail again your gone.

This count is based on phases. 3 carts per phase. I think I am perfectly reasonable. I suggest everyone else should use the same 3 strike rule

If i get put in a duty with a bunch of bad players I find it better if just leave and not say anything. Happens to me all the time to me in alliance raid roulette. Tell ones what to do and they just ignore you. First wipe when they don't listen I leave.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Picture it Paglth'an lvl 80.

Black Mage in the party is casting on packs flare > freeze > flare > freeze > flare

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Is this bad? On mob packs I do Thunder 4> Freeze> Flare(since the spell goes off way faster after ice spells)> Freeze >Flare and mixing in the Thunder 4 procs from the Freeze (or manually casting Thunder 4 if it doesn't proc and my dot fell off) and then Fouls when they are up. If I'm doing it wrong please let me know since I never knew. XD

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Originally Posted by hynaku

If i get put in a duty with a bunch of bad players I find it better if just leave and not say anything. Happens to me all the time to me in alliance raid roulette. Tell ones what to do and they just ignore you. First wipe when they don't listen I leave.

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Oh, you're the kind of person I fill for a lot.

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Originally Posted by PMSJordan

Is this bad? On mob packs I do Thunder 4> Freeze> Flare(since the spell goes off way faster after ice spells)> Freeze >Flare and mixing in the Thunder 4 procs from the Freeze (or manually casting Thunder 4 if it doesn't proc and my dot fell off) and then Fouls when they are up. If I'm doing it wrong please let me know since I never knew. XD

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I'm assuming you're talking about in lv80 trash pulls.

If you are following up that Cold Flare with another Flare, then I don't think you're on the wrong track. Umbral Heart trait at lv68 allows you to execute double Flare because the first Flare will consume the Umbral Heart & 2/3 of your MP, leaving you around 2k-3k MP. It's enough to fire off another Flare under AF influence. Alternating back and forth between Freeze > Flare > Freeze > Flare won't be as strong as the double flare variant. AF3 phase gives about 1.8x more damage to all Fire spells. Flares are fire-aspected so they benefit from this

According to some math formula that I read somewhere before… (I was trying to find it but I couldn’t in the end), transitioning to AF phase with ‘Cold Flare’ (what you are doing) vs 5 or more mobs is slightly better than doing a ‘Hot Flare’ (using Fire III to switch to AF before unleashing double Flare), which are only better up till 4 mobs.

Tldr; it'll look something like this:

• Cold Flare = Freeze > T4 > Flare > Flare > Freeze
• Hot Flare = Freeze > T4 > F3 > Flare > Flare > Freeze

Thunderclouds procs and Fouls are used liberally whenever they proc and as long as they don't overcap.

Personally I like to see my flares going off under AF phase so I omit the cold flares for subjective reason. Doesn’t seem to be much different, but figured it could be nice to put that out here just in case.