Hot Take: The MSQ grind is too long and its harmful to expanding friend groups.

Honestly? Maybe this isn't the game for them. This game is not endgame focused. The journey is given a place of importance. If they only think the max level bleeding edge content is worthwhile, then this just may not be a game that's suitable for them.

SE provides the opportunity to skip this, but at a price. And that's a good thing because it maintains the idea that the journey is just as important as the destination.

FF 14 is not rush to endgame.

The journey is the key..not the end.

invest your time into game. i wonder, how long people will play when you could immediately hit max lvl. its mmorpg. yoshi is saying you dont need to pay sub for every month, but you should invest your time . if you cant, then play some offline or just not mmorpg o/

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Honestly? Maybe this isn't the game for them. This game is not endgame focused. The journey is given a place of importance. If they only think the max level bleeding edge content is worthwhile, then this just may not be a game that's suitable for them.

SE provides the opportunity to skip this, but at a price. And that's a good thing because it maintains the idea that the journey is just as important as the destination.

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A lot of things open up at endgame, whether it be content, or something as simple as glamour, mounts, etc. If people played this game specifically for the story they'd either quit and only come back for patches and/or expansions, or make alts over and over to (somehow) enjoy it repeatedly. I think someone can enjoy the game with or without the story.

SE provides the "opportunity"? I do not think it's an "opportunity" to pay SE a decent portion of money just to skip past hundreds of hours of story, just to play the mmo aspect with friends. Them not providing other alternatives, other than a skip/boost, and with expansion after expansion making the trip to endgame longer and longer, is just one means of getting more money from players, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

A lot of things open up at endgame, whether it be content, or something as simple as glamour, mounts, etc. If people played this game specifically for the story they'd either quit and only come back for patches and/or expansions, or make alts over and over to (somehow) enjoy it repeatedly. I think someone can enjoy the game with or without the story.

SE provides the "opportunity"? I do not think it's an "opportunity" to pay SE a decent portion of money just to skip past hundreds of hours of story, just to play the mmo aspect with friends. Them not providing other alternatives, other than a skip/boost, and with expansion after expansion making the trip to endgame longer and longer, is just one means of getting more money from players, in my opinion.

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There is something called new game+ so...yeah...you don't have to create alts to relive the story.

AND...YOU...CAN...SKIP...CUTSCENES...AND...MOST...OF...THE...OPTIONAL...CONTENT. NOBODY...IS...FORCING...YOU...TO...DO...EVERY...BLUE...QUEST. IF...YOU...WANT...A...QUICK...WAY...TO...GET...TO...ENDGAME...THEN...BUY...A...BOOSTER. THAT...IS...FAIR...CAUSE...YOU...SKIP...ALSO...THE...TIME...WHICH...YOU...NATURALLY...WOULD...NEED...TO...REACH...THAT...LEVEL...IF...YOU...DON'T...BOOST.

Seriously not that hard to get, right? Boosters are fair, we pay sub fee and level our jobs etc. naturally so the boosters can also support the game with a fee that makes up for the sub fee they also skip with that boost.

Edit: Just to clarify, nobody is forcing players to play through the hundreds of hours of story. I leveled countless alts and if you skip every dialoge and cutscene you can easily get so endgame in mere days, sure it's still a grind but you don't have to deal with most of the story if you don't want to. It's not that hard to just push through it.

MMO's, by their very nature, attract a wide variety of players. I think a vocal portion of the FFXIV community has a major issue with gatekeeping. If people don't care about the MSQ's, they're free to not care about the MSQ's. I don't think that means that they should be paying extra to catch up. I also do not think that it means that the game isn't for them - because there's plenty of things for people to do in the game that aren't tied to the MSQ's. I know people who only engage with gathering and crafting for the most part. I know some people who only partake of PvP. Others focus their time around leading hunt trains and so on and so forth.

Personally I used to care about the story a lot more than I do at present. Maybe it'll change in Endwalker, but so far there's been a sense of minimal meaningful consequence and excessive melodrama. I hope that changes - but I can easily see why some people really don't want to force themselves to go through a story they do not care for. I think that its decent as far as MMO's are concerned, but hardly the most amazing and deepest story ever told.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

There is something called new game+ so...yeah...you don't have to create alts to relive the story.

AND...YOU...CAN...SKIP...CUTSCENES...AND...MOST...OF...THE...OPTIONAL...CONTENT. NOBODY...IS...FORCING...YOU...TO...DO...EVERY...BLUE...QUEST. IF...YOU...WANT...A...QUICK...WAY...TO...GET...TO...ENDGAME...THEN...BUY...A...BOOSTER. THAT...IS...FAIR...CAUSE...YOU...SKIP...ALSO...THE...TIME...WHICH...YOU...NATURALLY...WOULD...NEED...TO...REACH...THAT...LEVEL...IF...YOU...DON'T...BOOST.

Seriously not that hard to get, right? Boosters are fair, we pay sub fee and level our jobs etc. naturally so the boosters can also support the game with a fee that makes up for the sub fee they also skip with that boost.

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Yes, the game forces you to do most, if not all, blue quests, if a player wants to access most content and just because a player can skip the cutscene doesn't make the process much less lengthy, or make for a good new player experience. I don't think it's particularly helpful to just tell a new player to buy a skip/boost just to enjoy the game, nor do I think it's helpful to tell players that the game isn't for them, just because they want to skip through the MSQ. In some cases yeah, some games won't click for people, but I think this game has a lot of merit beyond the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

MMO's, by their very nature, attract a wide variety of players. I think a vocal portion of the FFXIV community has a major issue with gatekeeping. If people don't care about the MSQ's, they're free to not care about the MSQ's. I don't think that means that they should be paying extra to catch up. I also do not think that it means that the game isn't for them - because there's plenty of things for people to do in the game that aren't tied to the MSQ's. I know people who only engage with gathering and crafting for the most part. I know some people who only partake of PvP. Others focus their time around leading hunt trains and so on and so forth.

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Wrong. We pay the sub fee to level our characters if we don't boost. If you do all the stuff it takes you months in sub fees. A booster basically skips that time which they would need to make their way up to endgame. They don't pay extra, lol. They pay what they would pay if they would do it the natural way. So it's fair that they pay "extra" cause they don't spend months enjoying the stuff we do, would be not that fair if we had to pay all the sub fees to reach endgame the natural way and others would have a free pass to endgame.

On the other hand i actually agree with you here, gatekeeping is stupid, if you don't enjoy the story just force your way through it or boost. I don't see any problems with boosters etc. besides the usual icemage that only casts icespells cause they are faster...had one of them in a dungeon and it was not fun...xD

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yes, the game forces you to do most, if not all, blue quests, if a player wants to access most content, and just because a player can skip the cutscene doesn't make the process much less lengthy, or make for a good new player experience. I don't think it's particularly helpful to just tell a new player to buy a skip/boost just to enjoy the game, nor do I think it's helpful to tell players that the game isn't for them, just because they want to skip through it. In some cases yeah, some games won't click for people, but I think this game has a lot of merit beyond the MSQ.

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Are we playing the same game? Last time i checked all the hundreds of optional dungeons, ex trials and all that which are unlocked by blue quests aren't forced on players. You don't have to do them to progress, lol. The only blue questline that is mandatory is the msq questline and the crystal tower one. If you don't want to unlock a optional dungeon or raid or trial it doesn't mean anything for your endgame. You can go up to Shadowbringers, raid eden savage and you don't have to do the alexander raids, Omega, or coil etc. you don't have to unlock any of it to do your endgame.

So yeah i guess we are playing different games then. Cause it seems you aren't playing XIV.

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Originally Posted by PartyBarn

Let people skip just the plateaus at each previous level cap to accelerate MSQ progress

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1) At each prior level cap plateau there is raiding that you can do. Each set of raids has their own progression related to the patches that came with those plateaus. You should actually have your friends take their time when they hit them. Instead of trying to rush through, they should team up with each other/you and raid at each plateau, and get a feeling for what the time in the game was like, as it pays dividends later, especially if done at least synced(minimum iLvl for closer approximation of the time they were current). They also have associated story in them to go with the high end gameplay.

2) It sounds like your "quite large" friend group doesn't have the right mentality for approaching FFXIV, and that they were misinformed somewhere when told that they needed to get to 80 to do raiding.

3) If you only use one job, and skip out on side things like PoTD, HoH, Bozja, and Eureka, then it takes roughly 290 hours give or take, plus queue times to get from creating a level 1 character to get to the very end of 5.55. This includes doing the normal mode raid tiers at each plateau (though add the gather time for Coil PF). This is also with watching every cutscene and ruminating on them/reading them slowly. If you skim read or skip disliked character's dialogue, then it goes by a little faster. Personally I wouldn't recommend skipping any of it, but if you had to have them skip something then it'd be HoH, PotD, Eureka/Bozja as those are grindy and samey and the least impactful storywise(though they have story and are a lot fun imo). So even with a full time job, even if you only give FFXIV 20 hours a week ( 2~3 hours a day, double on off days), then you'd hit hit 5.55 in just under 4 months. 8 years worth of story and raids and things in 4 months (at least all of the normal mode stuff, so all savages and extremes unlocked along the way).

If nothing else I hope that gives you a better perspective with which to suggest and cheer on your friends.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

SE provides the "opportunity"? I do not think it's an "opportunity" to pay SE a decent portion of money just to skip past hundreds of hours of story, just to play the mmo aspect with friends. Them not providing other alternatives, other than a skip/boost, and with expansion after expansion making the trip to endgame longer and longer, is just one means of getting more money from players, in my opinion.

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Skip books ARE an opportunity. They are, essentially, a time travel of sorts. Depending on your pace you would arguably spend more than 50$ just on a sub by the time you reach 5.0. Skip options save your time by taking money you would spend on a sub otherwise.

It would be simply weird to give people free ride to end game while taking money for a sub from those who decide to go through the story manually, playing the game the way it was intended to be played. You want to skip the game in order to save time? Pay for it then, since there's no other option. Either this or spend a week or two skipping through cutcsenes, which is also an option if you're that unwilling of both experiencing the story and buying skip books.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

Skip books ARE an opportunity. They are, essentially, a time travel of sorts. Depending on your pace you would arguably spend more than 50$ just on a sub by the time you reach 5.0. Skip options save your time by taking money you would spend on a sub otherwise.

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This. You can also just buy the story skip and then level a character manually fairly quickly by running duties. You could even make it a group activity with your friends.

I think I got a character from 50 to 70 in a week just doing daily roulettes. You need to get up to 50 first of course, but you could get through it all faster if you were focusing on doing it.

A story skip unlocks all optional dungeons and the Crystal Tower raids so you can dive into several types of roulette and get the EXP and poetics you need as you go. You'd just need to do the job quests for your skills, which can usually be rushed through while you're queuing for other things.

I would ask where in the story they're 'washing out' at.
If its before the end of ARR, then I'd argue that this isn't the game for them.
While endgame is a large focus, it's not the main one. Each expansion comes with a ton of story content and that's the main content of the game. If they can't make it through one expansion now, how are they going to get through Endwalker when that releases?

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Originally Posted by van_arn

This is why I’m hoping the new arc after endwalker just starts the player at the new arc. New game + can get people that want the story of the previous arc, and everyone can play together again rather than be scattered throughout a 300+ hour msq.

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Or you know, maybe at least the option to choose? It's not like the rest of the game will die when 6.1 rolls out.

Complaining about having to do the story in a story focused game, never change.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

Skip books ARE an opportunity. They are, essentially, a time travel of sorts. Depending on your pace you would arguably spend more than 50$ just on a sub by the time you reach 5.0. Skip options save your time by taking money you would spend on a sub otherwise.

It would be simply weird to give people free ride to end game while taking money for a sub from those who decide to go through the story manually, playing the game the way it was intended to be played. You want to skip the game in order to save time? Pay for it then, since there's no other option. Either this or spend a week or two skipping through cutcsenes, which is also an option if you're that unwilling of both experiencing the story and buying skip books.

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This sounds very much like “put in the hard work if you wanna have fun”, to which I say both the work isn’t exactly hard, it’s just tedious. Secondly there shouldn’t BE any work, it’s a GAME. One, I might add, we paid for, plus pay an extra $12 a month for. So yeah, asking $50 to skip the forced reading segment is unreasonable.

I found the game a LOT more interesting AFTER the MSQ because I actually had time to go back to all the optional content since my time wasn’t occupied by riding the railroad Square handed us. Despite what you may think the destination IS as important as the journey, more so when 3/4 of the journey sucked.

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Originally Posted by SpanishInkwehsitor

This sounds very much like “put in the hard work if you wanna have fun”, to which I say both the work isn’t exactly hard, it’s just tedious. Secondly there shouldn’t BE any work, it’s a GAME. One, I might add, we paid for, plus pay an extra $12 a month for. So yeah, asking $50 to skip the forced reading segment is unreasonable.

I found the game a LOT more interesting AFTER the MSQ because I actually had time to go back to all the optional content since my time wasn’t occupied by riding the railroad Square handed us. Despite what you may think the destination IS as important as the journey, more so when 3/4 of the journey sucked.

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Reading is sooooo much work, NO READING IN MY GAMES!

3/4? You know what they say about opinions, right?

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Originally Posted by PartyBarn

Probably triggered people with the title, but the struggle is super real to slog through the literally 200-400 hours of story content to get to max level

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For those curious or skeptical about the number, I just leveled a new character up through the end of 5.0 MSQ. I watched all cutscenes in their entirety with auto-advance set to 6 and read all dialog. I did only MSQ, job quests and side quests for Aether Currents, plus some extra content to get through the 46-49 hump (did not have any XP bonuses active other than rested until I finished 2.0). It took 189 hours. Doing additional side content such as FATEs or roulettes along the way would have added to the time.

So while 400 hours would be a gross exaggeration of the time needed to complete MSQ, 200 hours is accurate enough for those who are watching cutscenes. Those who skip cutscenes or go through them at faster speeds will shave several dozen hours off that time.

That said, there's nothing to stop anyone from playing with their friends new to the game. Simply join them as they work their way through the MSQ. Once they've completed their starting area, turn on NG+ so you can be playing through the story with them. It is supposed to be about playing with your friends and helping them enjoy their experience instead of rushing them to end game because that's more convenient for you, right?

I would add a bit to your time for first go players - like 50 at least, when I redid Witcher I was much faster than the first time (like 40% even though I did more content the second time).

Though I agree 400 is more on the high end. 200 being quite quick and 400 being quite slow (or doing some other optional content).

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Originally Posted by PartyBarn

Probably triggered people with the title, but the struggle is super real to slog through the literally 200-400 hours of story content to get to max level if you aren't unemployed or a streamer. As a fairly long time player who has had a bunch of friends hop over from other games recently, I've noticed that most of them are washing out and quitting before getting to 80 to join me and my other established friends.
Just a bummer to entice my friends over with hopes to raid and do other activities with each other, and have to wait weeks or months for them to slog through the story, if they make it at all.

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Conclusion is this game is not for your friends and never will be even they got a skip.
The game is show cased as story driven and theme park MMORPG and if your friends are unable to get hook on it and they never will.
They are probably the type of people that skip on every thing and I really found it is no point for them to waste their time here.
They are probably better with those Korean MMO that designed with 2 years life span

Again, MMO's attract a lot of different types of players and the gatekeeping about how the game is 'supposed' to be played is becoming rather jarring, especially recently.

I myself wouldn't be able to bring myself to play a game if I didn't care about the story to at least some extent, though I'm happy to recognise that things are different for other groups of players.

There's also people who used to like the story but no longer care as much as they once did due to some of the decisions made by the writers in recent years.

Ultimately, MMO's are designed to appeal to a broad variety of players - which means that not everybody playing FFXIV places a high value on the MSQ's. To them, they're a chore - but that doesn't mean there aren't elements of the game that they'll stick around for and enjoy.

It's a little difficult to fast track the story any more than when that's basically what this game is centered around. This is well known.

Play the game.
Use the exp trinkets
Or boost your toon.

The MSQ doesn't need to be changed beyond that. There was a time (even in that other MMO) before boosts that you HAD to play the content and all expansions in or derbefore you caught up.

We dealth with it and did it or we didn't.

Let me try that again with actual English...

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Originally Posted by DBriggs304

It's a little difficult to fast track the story any more than what they've done already when that's basically what this game is centered around. This is well known.

Play the game.
Use the exp trinkets
Or boost your toon.

The MSQ doesn't need to be changed beyond that. There was a time (even in that other MMO) before boosts that you HAD to play the content and all expansions in order before you caught up.

We dealt with it and did it or we didn't.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

So what if I can't participate in dog farms today. I'll be able to do that later. Because a good FC or a group of good friends would be able to coordinate some time to help me get the dogs I want when I'm at the appropriate level and story progression to do so. It may not be the first day I'm ready to do it, but I know it will happen.

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Finding a good FC is like dating. You're more likely to find somebody abusive or neglectful than your soul-mate. The guild I was part of in a different game that I could suggest dog-farm equivalent activities was abusive. Others guilds I've been in were there just to raid or RP. I've had similar luck with XIV FC's.

Maybe you're the type of person that can charm people at will but that's something I struggle with. The few people I'm close with are very whim oriented. Consequently if there's an opportunity now I'd better be able to take advantage of it because who know when the next chance will come around.

How about instead of spending 200-300 hours doing the MSQ, that may be a slog for many players, especially those who are there to play endgame with friends, they (SE) make the new player experience better? By encouraging the usage of a skip, there isn't a huge incentive to "fix" any issues there may be with the new player experience. They have to play hundreds of hours of content they may not be interested in just to get to the part they actually wanted to play.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

How about instead of spending 200-300 hours doing the MSQ, that may be a slog for many players, especially those who are there to play endgame with friends, they (SE) make the new player experience better? By encouraging the usage of a skip, there isn't a huge incentive to "fix" any issues there may be with the new player experience. They have to play hundreds of hours of content they may not be interested in just to get to the part they actually wanted to play.

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And?

SE chooses to offer skips only at a premium. They have experience in other MMOs. I'm sure Yoshi-P is well aware of what catering to the mentality that the endgame is all that matters will do to a game. Vyrerus made some good points on page 5 about why this is a faulty mentality even among those who prefer to just raid.

How short do you think they'd need to make the fast-track in order for people to choose that over buying a boost/skip? 100 hours? 80? 20?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

How about instead of spending 200-300 hours doing the MSQ, that may be a slog for many players, especially those who are there to play endgame with friends, they (SE) make the new player experience better? By encouraging the usage of a skip, there isn't a huge incentive to "fix" any issues there may be with the new player experience. They have to play hundreds of hours of content they may not be interested in just to get to the part they actually wanted to play.

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You mean those who want to skip most of the game to get to the last 1% of the game? To be honest, I don't care about them and wouldn't miss them if they didn't stay around. Why bother with players who are not interested in playing the game?

No game can be designed for everyone, and it is stupid to try.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

How about instead of spending 200-300 hours doing the MSQ, that may be a slog for many players, especially those who are there to play endgame with friends, they (SE) make the new player experience better? By encouraging the usage of a skip, there isn't a huge incentive to "fix" any issues there may be with the new player experience. They have to play hundreds of hours of content they may not be interested in just to get to the part they actually wanted to play.

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There isn't anything to fix. That's what the skip/boost is for. Otherwise, play the game. If they aren't interested in doing that, then they just aren't interested in a game like this.

Honestly... if you aren't interested in the story this game has nothing for you. Nothing that you are doing will make sense if you skip the story. The story is amazing after ARR.

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Originally Posted by Karthunk

Honestly... if you aren't interested in the story this game has nothing for you. Nothing that you are doing will make sense if you skip the story. The story is amazing after ARR.

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I wouldn't go that far.

There are people out there who enjoy the content outside of the story enough to warrant buying subs and expansion packs. They aren't the majority, but they do exist.

Not every game needs to be for everyone.

I started not too long ago, got 80 well before even starting current expansion. Rerolled due to FC drama and not being able to find a FC that accepts people my age, re-leveling now.

I have to say, I absolutely LOVE the story, I LOVE leveling through it, and I am SO pleased I never paid for a skip. Even the second time around!

Maybe the people who are complaining are used to playing games with zero story content? For example I tried another popular MMO before coming here, lasted like three months, their story was a shambles and made no sense and had no player engagement.

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Originally Posted by Karthunk

Honestly... if you aren't interested in the story this game has nothing for you. Nothing that you are doing will make sense if you skip the story. The story is amazing after ARR.

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I don't need to understand why I'm fighting Perfect Alex to enjoy my job, the mechanics, and the banter that ensues with my friends, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by AlyaNimfa

Maybe the people who are complaining are used to playing games with zero story content? For example I tried another popular MMO before coming here, lasted like three months, their story was a shambles and made no sense and had no player engagement.

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Personally, most of my favorite games have very good story telling and world building.
Walls of exposition and info dumps is exactly not that. The quality of the story and world matters little when the way it's presented is bad.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

How about instead of spending 200-300 hours doing the MSQ, that may be a slog for many players, especially those who are there to play endgame with friends, they (SE) make the new player experience better? By encouraging the usage of a skip, there isn't a huge incentive to "fix" any issues there may be with the new player experience. They have to play hundreds of hours of content they may not be interested in just to get to the part they actually wanted to play.

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These people are not the intended audience SE is trying to entice to play. SE is happy to get any money, but their target player is the one spending that monthly subscription getting through the story.

Players only interested in “Endgame” content are trying to do an extremely small slice of content, or glamours/socialization/rp which doesn’t require level cap to begin with. This small tiny bit of content is easily burned through. Again, SE is happy to take their 1-2 month subscription, but they are hardly “bell cow” customers.

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Originally Posted by SpanishInkwehsitor

This sounds very much like “put in the hard work if you wanna have fun”, to which I say both the work isn’t exactly hard, it’s just tedious. Secondly there shouldn’t BE any work, it’s a GAME. One, I might add, we paid for, plus pay an extra $12 a month for. So yeah, asking $50 to skip the forced reading segment is unreasonable.

I found the game a LOT more interesting AFTER the MSQ because I actually had time to go back to all the optional content since my time wasn’t occupied by riding the railroad Square handed us. Despite what you may think the destination IS as important as the journey, more so when 3/4 of the journey sucked.

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It is reasonable, and I think I explained well enough why. Is it a perfect solution? Probably not. But it is reasonable. Just because it's a game doesn't mean you should have everything on a plate right away. Do you start playing single player games right from the battle with last boss? Because lest you forget, FF14 is a full-scale FF title, it's supposed to be treated primarily as a story game despite having plenty of content outside of it. In FF14 going through story is a part of the fun. The entire game is centered around it - even unlocking end-game content is a story in itself.

If for you or your friends 3/4 of the main part of the game sucks - then I'm personally not sure why you're still here. You will face another major story-wall just in 3 months. Then another one. And another one. And another one. That's just how this game is, it's a part of its design. It's not a mistake, not a bug, it was deliberately designed this way. Destination matters, yes, but if you don't even like the process - what's the point? You will face this frustration every single expansion, if not every single major patch. Why put yourself into this position when you're clearly not the part of target audience for the game and there are projects that would suit your vision on games far better?

I say all this as somebody who didn't skip a single dialogue or cut-scene in all 7.5 years of playing the game and loved every second of this journey. I also know people who don't particularly care for the story and enjoy the game in their own way, but for none of them "3/4 of the journey" sucked, and as for those for whom it did... they actually left because it wasn't their cup of a tea. If you go as far as to say that major part of the game sucks for you - it's clearly just not your type of the game, which is okay.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Walls of exposition and info dumps is exactly not that. The quality of the story and world matters little when the way it's presented is bad.

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Nah, a good story is a good story. If you can't get over reading a lot, then that's on you. The best stories in the world are still inside of books. There are certainly better ways to engage an audience with a story, but that doesn't really make the story better or worse.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Nah, a good story is a good story. If you can't get over reading a lot, then that's on you. The best stories in the world are still inside of books. There are certainly better ways to engage an audience with a story, but that doesn't really make the story better or worse.

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I can get over reading a lot, I enjoy novels plenty. When it's well written. In XIV, it's all dialogue, usually more to say less, with awkward animations in-between occasionally, and info dumps that can definitely break the pacing. It isn't engaging.

Use story skip, enjoy content, understand nothing (story related), skip all cutscenes, reach 80, do 80s content. That easy.

You want to play with your friends and skip most of the game buy a skip pretty simple. Interestingly enough the wow streamers didn't skip but actually played though story. Fun to watch their game play and reactions.