Can Pugilists/Monks Tank

I thought I was on SRK for a minute there. I'll put this in terms that you can understand immediately.

MNK has Strider health and no good defensive options. No invincible DP, no alpha counter, no push block, no burst - nothing. All he has is that stupid S-groove sidestep on a 60 second timer and Second Wind. MNK has to constantly spend meter (TP) on impractical combos that require you to take huge risks and put other people in danger just to have a chance at tanking because it has to tank through damage. The stuns are unreliable on boss mobs. It has no other options to keep hate.

Then, let's compare it to WAR. WAR has tools akin to mvc2 Sentinel health, super armor, push block, commando assist, and a crossover counter into Cable AHVB. Vengeance makes it so that you have to take damage just to get in against WAR. Next, imagine a Sentinel that can drain HP like Ragna from BB. Shit's OP as hell.

It takes a lot of work to bring this guy down. His stuns are built into his regular BnBs, so he doesn't have to sacrifice damage for a knockdown/oki. Provoke, Flash, etc. all mean that he doesn't have to spend meter (TP) just to hold hate. And because he always has meter ready, he can throw out DPs whenever he wants and just FADC/RC back to safety (a.k.a. get animation-locked and hit defensive abilities when you can't dodge attacks). WAR has tools to handle any type of opponent because it can tank through damage, tank through abilities, and has the health to take any kind of punishment.

As for the guy that says PGL can tank just fine, I have to call BS. Yes, anyone can tank to an extent if they go as a Class and equip voke/flash/rampart/sentinel/sanguine rite/etc. That doesn't mean they do it well. That's kind of like saying Twelve is a great defensive character just because he can parry. Well, Chun can parry too. Everyone in 3s can. Plus, Chun has those godlike normals, kara-throw, and damage threat from SAII to back it all up. Twelve is not as good a defensive character as Chun. PGL is not as good a tank as GLA or MRD.

When it comes to tanking WAR is S-tier, PLD is A-tier, and MNK is C-tier at best. I mean, you can try tanking on MNK but that's like using BBCS1 Rachel or Commando on point in a team tourney. Are your teammates really gonna be ok with you trying to troll the other team when they're doing everything they can to win?

Thumbs up, I loled hard, worst part is that I understand all these...

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Originally Posted by kro

I thought I was on SRK for a minute there. I'll put this in terms that you can understand immediately.

MNK has Strider health and no good defensive options. No invincible DP, no alpha counter, no push block, no burst - nothing. All he has is that stupid S-groove sidestep on a 60 second timer and Second Wind. MNK has to constantly spend meter (TP) on impractical combos that require you to take huge risks and put other people in danger just to have a chance at tanking because it has to tank through damage. The stuns are unreliable on boss mobs. It has no other options to keep hate.

Then, let's compare it to WAR. WAR has tools akin to mvc2 Sentinel health, super armor, push block, commando assist, and a crossover counter into Cable AHVB. Vengeance makes it so that you have to take damage just to get in against WAR. Next, imagine a Sentinel that can drain HP like Ragna from BB. Shit's OP as hell.

It takes a lot of work to bring this guy down. His stuns are built into his regular BnBs, so he doesn't have to sacrifice damage for a knockdown/oki. Provoke, Flash, etc. all mean that he doesn't have to spend meter (TP) just to hold hate. And because he always has meter ready, he can throw out DPs whenever he wants and just FADC/RC back to safety (a.k.a. get animation-locked and hit defensive abilities when you can't dodge attacks). WAR has tools to handle any type of opponent because it can tank through damage, tank through abilities, and has the health to take any kind of punishment.

As for the guy that says PGL can tank just fine, I have to call BS. Yes, anyone can tank to an extent if they go as a Class and equip voke/flash/rampart/sentinel/sanguine rite/etc. That doesn't mean they do it well. That's kind of like saying Twelve is a great defensive character just because he can parry. Well, Chun can parry too. Everyone in 3s can. Plus, Chun has those godlike normals, kara-throw, and damage threat from SAII to back it all up. Twelve is not as good a defensive character as Chun. PGL is not as good a tank as GLA or MRD.

When it comes to tanking WAR is S-tier, PLD is A-tier, and MNK is C-tier at best. I mean, you can try tanking on MNK but that's like using BBCS1 Rachel or Commando on point in a team tourney. Are your teammates really gonna be ok with you trying to troll the other team when they're doing everything they can to win?

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Lol your talking my language dude that was epic.

Alright so lets just say that until proven otherwise it is in general consensus that monks or pugilists cant tank. Would it be such a bad thing if they could? Would another viable tank be a bad thing? Maybe SE could modify some abilities to make it a worthy tank in its own unique way. Cut down on trying to find tanks etc. or I suppose the class can just stay DD only.

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Originally Posted by kro

I thought I was on SRK for a minute there. I'll put this in terms that you can understand immediately.

MNK has Strider health and no good defensive options. No invincible DP, no alpha counter, no push block, no burst - nothing. All he has is that stupid S-groove sidestep on a 60 second timer and Second Wind. MNK has to constantly spend meter (TP) on impractical combos that require you to take huge risks and put other people in danger just to have a chance at tanking because it has to tank through damage. The stuns are unreliable on boss mobs. It has no other options to keep hate.

Then, let's compare it to WAR. WAR has tools akin to mvc2 Sentinel health, super armor, push block, commando assist, and a crossover counter into Cable AHVB. Vengeance makes it so that you have to take damage just to get in against WAR. Next, imagine a Sentinel that can drain HP like Ragna from BB. Shit's OP as hell.

It takes a lot of work to bring this guy down. His stuns are built into his regular BnBs, so he doesn't have to sacrifice damage for a knockdown/oki. Provoke, Flash, etc. all mean that he doesn't have to spend meter (TP) just to hold hate. And because he always has meter ready, he can throw out DPs whenever he wants and just FADC/RC back to safety (a.k.a. get animation-locked and hit defensive abilities when you can't dodge attacks). WAR has tools to handle any type of opponent because it can tank through damage, tank through abilities, and has the health to take any kind of punishment.

As for the guy that says PGL can tank just fine, I have to call BS. Yes, anyone can tank to an extent if they go as a Class and equip voke/flash/rampart/sentinel/sanguine rite/etc. That doesn't mean they do it well. That's kind of like saying Twelve is a great defensive character just because he can parry. Well, Chun can parry too. Everyone in 3s can. Plus, Chun has those godlike normals, kara-throw, and damage threat from SAII to back it all up. Twelve is not as good a defensive character as Chun. PGL is not as good a tank as GLA or MRD.

When it comes to tanking WAR is S-tier, PLD is A-tier, and MNK is C-tier at best. I mean, you can try tanking on MNK but that's like using BBCS1 Rachel or Commando on point in a team tourney. Are your teammates really gonna be ok with you trying to troll the other team when they're doing everything they can to win?

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I realize I know NOTHING about fighting games, hahaha!

*goes back and tries to master Karate Champ*

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Originally Posted by kro

I thought I was on SRK for a minute there. I'll put this in terms that you can understand immediately.

MNK has Strider health and no good defensive options. No invincible DP, no alpha counter, no push block, no burst - nothing. All he has is that stupid S-groove sidestep on a 60 second timer and Second Wind. MNK has to constantly spend meter (TP) on impractical combos that require you to take huge risks and put other people in danger just to have a chance at tanking because it has to tank through damage. The stuns are unreliable on boss mobs. It has no other options to keep hate.

Then, let's compare it to WAR. WAR has tools akin to mvc2 Sentinel health, super armor, push block, commando assist, and a crossover counter into Cable AHVB. Vengeance makes it so that you have to take damage just to get in against WAR. Next, imagine a Sentinel that can drain HP like Ragna from BB. Shit's OP as hell.

It takes a lot of work to bring this guy down. His stuns are built into his regular BnBs, so he doesn't have to sacrifice damage for a knockdown/oki. Provoke, Flash, etc. all mean that he doesn't have to spend meter (TP) just to hold hate. And because he always has meter ready, he can throw out DPs whenever he wants and just FADC/RC back to safety (a.k.a. get animation-locked and hit defensive abilities when you can't dodge attacks). WAR has tools to handle any type of opponent because it can tank through damage, tank through abilities, and has the health to take any kind of punishment.

As for the guy that says PGL can tank just fine, I have to call BS. Yes, anyone can tank to an extent if they go as a Class and equip voke/flash/rampart/sentinel/sanguine rite/etc. That doesn't mean they do it well. That's kind of like saying Twelve is a great defensive character just because he can parry. Well, Chun can parry too. Everyone in 3s can. Plus, Chun has those godlike normals, kara-throw, and damage threat from SAII to back it all up. Twelve is not as good a defensive character as Chun. PGL is not as good a tank as GLA or MRD.

When it comes to tanking WAR is S-tier, PLD is A-tier, and MNK is C-tier at best. I mean, you can try tanking on MNK but that's like using BBCS1 Rachel or Commando on point in a team tourney. Are your teammates really gonna be ok with you trying to troll the other team when they're doing everything they can to win?

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... lol hilarious. Hilarious in format and hilarious in the fact you would find rampant attitude on SRK.

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Would it be such a bad thing if they could? Would another viable tank be a bad thing? Maybe SE could modify some abilities to make it a worthy tank in its own unique way

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No it wouldn't be bad.
The main problem besides that monks can't Tank is that their current tanking way is to mimic WAR/PLD, he doesnt have his own way to do it.
We will see what happens in the future.

You can tank Mobs, yeah... maybe Ifrit (done with pgl) and kiting moogle (not done), yeah.... but can't tank Chimera or simple Ant or maybe Coincounter or Miser ^^ or Garuda ^^" ... Monk use the dps for generate hate, but don't have ability for create hate (Taunt is temporary) and featherfoot don't evade all attacks, better Foresight.... i love monk only as dd.. because it's a dd!

A year ago pgl was a tank.. i remember when i was tanking uraeus or great buffalo *__* i miss this times.. but pgl/mnk don't born as a tank ^^

Maybe in a future SE introduce Ninja ^^

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Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock

Thats cool. I have no end game experience I just noticed that the monk has a self heal, taunt, and stances that emphasize defense.

With
The many attacks that can be used to stun
feather foot
pounce to interrupt
second wind
Taunt
Fist of earth

Maybe they should change presence of mind to all attacks and modify it so it isnt OP.

This is very probably and I feel would give the monk more depth and versatility as a class. I think it might be a good idea for fellow monk players to consider making a petition and sending it to square. This would also solve the problem of having to find available tanks late game and in the long run wouldnt hurt the game at all.

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I don't think having a unreliable back attack stun is a good tanking tool.

I tanked Ifrit as pugilist with 456 evasion and I was tanking just fine, but I have to be honest and admit that I did not evade as many attacks as I thought I should maybe 4-5 not including my featherfoot evasions. Monk can most definitely be an evasion tank with the introduction of better evasion gear. I added over 100 evasion to my character and it did not seem to make as much difference as it should. Maybe its broken or there is a cap?

Lol i keep saying monk when i want to say pugilist. I dont know what abilities monk has but when I think monk i think the original final fantasy tactics with High Hp and Chakra those dudes lived forever and did crazy damage. I would argue that is what monks should have been in the first place.

As far as evasion and how it works. I think a good idea, taken from WoW and no I am not a WoW head, is when in the character gear screen you can see what the gear does to your stats and what the specfic attributes do for your character such as:
X str = y att power

or X evasion = Y % to dodge an attack or magic attack.

For those who never played Final Fantasy Tactics here ya go this is Monk and its abilities.
Also if you never played it buy it because it is one of the most epic stories you will ever see in a game.

http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/fft/jobs.php?job=Monk

Also monks have one of the highest evade in third place tied with samurai @ 20%, 2nd place is thief @ 25%, and 1st is not supprisingly Ninja at 30%

Can taunt but can't hold the hate.

Personally I'm dissapointed we can't emergency tank as well as Thief in XI. I don't want this to be XI-2 but without a THF class this was the closest in playstyle for me. Unless pre-planned, with my playstyle at least theres no prolonged emergency tanking. From the start I can tank with a good healer, but not for long. .. That's not the point of an emergency tank. I should be able to take hate mid fight and survive long enough for a good healer/tank to revive re-take hate a single time during a major fight. I know I'm not elite in my gear or playstyle, but I'd love the option.

PUGs/mnks would are more of a skill/high gear type for tanking you need a solid eva build and a good bit of enmity+ not to mention aoe tanking can get pretty rough since aura pulse is your only aoe i have seen a pug tank be4 using flash and the taunt/voke abilites not sure if a mnk would be able to have the nessicary actions to make this work but it requires some really good gear with 2 materia in all pieces

Monk absolutely can't tank. They don't have the enmity generating abilities to do so, not to mention the lack of health. At most you can get a monster's attention if things turn sour but not for long.

Pugilists, maybe. You'd have to cross-class a lot of stuff and even then you wouldn't come close to Warrior or even Paladin.

SE has enough trouble balancing Paladin and Warrior, let's not throw Pugilist back into the mix. They turned PGL/MNK away from tanking for a reason. PGL used to be able to tank but they took all of those abilities away and left us with Taunt which amounts to a few seconds of max hate.

Last night we used PGL to tank coincutter,mistress and chimera. Our main tank has long wanted to experiment with PGL and so we gave him his chance. Wearing the Gryphonskin set with +20 def on the body and a single +21 eva meld we found with FoE and food his def was comparable to his very well geared WAR but with significantly higher eva. We found hate took longer to establish but once established the dd could actually push harder without slipping into the red. The tank found it a lot of fun and the extra single target dps while obviously not as much as a full on dd mnk did help the fights go a little quicker. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone but if you have an experienced tank who can adjust his tanking style slightly then in certainly in some situations it appears that PGL can be a superior tank to both WAR and PLD. For the record we have over 400 wins in these dungeons with this tank. If he thinks pgl is better at it than his beloved WAR or PLD then I'm inclined to believe him.

Believe it or not thm with hp materia is a really good tank for certain things, I used to tank ifrit after the ability changes when thm was best for the fight, the other thm's in the group would never have to hold back because could hold hate with high damage and flash,voke,rampart meaning we could kill it in less than 5 minutes, 7thm 1conj (class stacking extreme haha) just rotate sentinel and sanguine rite(basically a 2nd sentinel fir thm) then necrogenesis thundara, self SS and second wind.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop...gxQSKVFw&gl=GB

We've also used PUG tank but its not as ideal

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop...QKx08nsU&gl=GB

For some of the newer boss's, mistress/ princess - could be tanked with anything, coincounter - tanks needs 3k+ hp for Glower, chimera - high hp is ideal incase getting hit, garuda - warrior is preferred for high hp and aoe damage/hate during sister phases.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

SE has enough trouble balancing Paladin and Warrior, let's not throw Pugilist back into the mix. They turned PGL/MNK away from tanking for a reason. PGL used to be able to tank but they took all of those abilities away and left us with Taunt which amounts to a few seconds of max hate.

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While I agree, it's kinda a pity. I mean, if PGL was a tank, then our range wouldn't be a disadvantage for once..

PGL can quite well but it takes a ton more effort than MRD/WAR/GLA/PLD.

MNK can only redirect the mob onto itself should a mage steal agro