Which Ascians are left? (Spoilers up to 5.4 obviously)

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

had a thought: fandaniel's motivation of killing everyone could be his true goal including whatever is on the moon and zodiark/hydaelyn

so it will appear to be a sbuversion at first with zenos and zodiark, we win ofc, then it turns out nope- he just wanted everything to burn after all and his death was the beginning of plan b and fandaniel wanted zodiark gone too so that his death was permanent

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Well, this has aged like fine wine. You were right on point!

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Originally Posted by Aline_D

Well, this has aged like fine wine. You were right on point!

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I'll always grant generous points for mostly correct guesses anyway, but I think the one inaccuracy is that there wasn't actually any subversion at all. Fancy Dan was actually very open and direct about what he wanted to do, he just didn't divulge all the steps. The only subversion came from us the players, who by and large looked at his stated motivation and went 'surely it's not that simple'.

Personally I believed him, but wasn't posting here much at the time. He's an Ascian, they survive normal death and we're the type to hear that sort of crisis and go 'oh no we can help' and 'surely there's good in you', which isn't helping him at all, so the only way he can commit suicide-by-WoL is by going as hard as he can.

Emet-Selch is immortal and therefore can never really die. He's the most powerful mage ever. His death was an illusion.
Emet has to return.
Yoshi, don't break my heart.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'll always grant generous points for mostly correct guesses anyway, but I think the one inaccuracy is that there wasn't actually any subversion at all. Fancy Dan was actually very open and direct about what he wanted to do, he just didn't divulge all the steps. The only subversion came from us the players, who by and large looked at his stated motivation and went 'surely it's not that simple'.

Personally I believed him, but wasn't posting here much at the time. He's an Ascian, they survive normal death and we're the type to hear that sort of crisis and go 'oh no we can help' and 'surely there's good in you', which isn't helping him at all, so the only way he can commit suicide-by-WoL is by going as hard as he can.

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My only point of contention with Flapdoodle is how it was made to appear as if he was manipulating Zenos into freeing Zodiark when really Zenos just couldn't be arsed to care.

Villains in this game are always built up to be more than what they turn out to be and it's kind of annoying.

I have a habit of following precedent towards the right questions to ask, and then the thing that "can't happen" happens specifically because at the last second they undermine the very thing I was focused on, so I'm having a BLAST, lol.

Even in this very thread, I'm highlighting how Elidibus has been disintegrated so "Even if his aether was consumed by the tower rather than the sea, the integrity of his soul is compromised, so how can he not be gone?"

And then Endwalker is like, "Well, that's true, buuut..."

I was so stoked when Endwalker validated that so long as Fandaniel identified as Fandaniel his tempering should have been restored (assuming Eden told an accurate story).
For 10 seconds.
Until he revealed he had been rejecting Hermes and identifying as Amon all along.

"......Oh, no."

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Until he revealed he had been rejecting Hermes and identifying as Amon all along.

"......Oh, no."

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'Oh no' for two different reasons, because Amon was so very much worse than Hermes. Hermes was mostly very nice and well-meaning, he was just out-of-step with the society around him and more than a little depressed. Amon was confirmably an absolute monster even BEFORE he got Ascian'd..

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I have a habit of following precedent towards the right questions to ask, and then the thing that "can't happen" happens specifically because at the last second they undermine the very thing I was focused on, so I'm having a BLAST, lol.

Even in this very thread, I'm highlighting how Elidibus has been disintegrated so "Even if his aether was consumed by the tower rather than the sea, the integrity of his soul is compromised, so how can he not be gone?"

And then Endwalker is like, "Well, that's true, buuut..."

I was so stoked when Endwalker validated that so long as Fandaniel identified as Fandaniel his tempering should have been restored (assuming Eden told an accurate story).
For 10 seconds.
Until he revealed he had been rejecting Hermes and identifying as Amon all along.

"......Oh, no."

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This is honestly where the game jumped the shark for me. Time travel shenanigans aside, the moment they decided to have Elidabus stay intact called a lot of established lore into question. Even by revealing Emet and co as mostly intact and able to be recalled by the WoL felt sloppy to me. It just screamed “there is a way to being back dead ascians, but thank god the ones you do bring back don’t care about living anymore”.

God forbid someone figures out how to bring back Lahabrea, because for all we currently know it is entirely possible he’s just hanging out in the life stream.

I’ve written it elsewhere, but sometimes it’s better to just let the story be the story as planned from the beginning (aka being ring to mount doom; defeat the Fire Emperor) and NOT a 11th hour Scooby-Doo enemy that requires massive shifts in established lore.

I enjoy the game for what it is, but doing lore speculation really lost its luster on the grand scheme of things when the rug constantly gets pulled out from under you.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

This is honestly where the game jumped the shark for me. Time travel shenanigans aside, the moment they decided to have Elidabus stay intact called a lot of established lore into question. Even by revealing Emet and co as mostly intact and able to be recalled by the WoL felt sloppy to me. It just screamed “there is a way to being back dead ascians, but thank god the ones you do bring back don’t care about living anymore”.

God forbid someone figures out how to bring back Lahabrea, because for all we currently know it is entirely possible he’s just hanging out in the life stream.

I’ve written it elsewhere, but sometimes it’s better to just let the story be the story as planned from the beginning (aka being ring to mount doom; defeat the Fire Emperor) and NOT a 11th hour Scooby-Doo enemy that requires massive shifts in established lore.

I enjoy the game for what it is, but doing lore speculation really lost its luster on the grand scheme of things when the rug constantly gets pulled out from under you.

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But...but, the "What a twist!" factor is my groove. Waiting for Emet...

Am I the only one that thought that there is more to this map selling guy (Zasshal) than meets the eye?
At first glance he just seems like a swindler that sells maps that may or may not be real.
But not only was his map legit, it also contained magic that literally opened up the way to Vrtra's hidden vault, which I believe no one would have expected.

Let's also not forget that Emet Selch knew of Alzadal's legacy, and if Emet knew about it, chances are that other, surviving ascians also know about it.
My theory is that Zasshal might be a sundered ascian that wanted us to find the void gate, for whatever reason.

Also: is it just me, or is this guy's face / hair unique? I haven't seen any other NPC that looks like him
https://imgur.com/44P713t

Apparently Zasshal is also a character from FF11, which I don't think is a coincidence.
There must be more to this guy than just being a throwaway character.

Alzadaal's Legacy itself is a XI reference to the Alzadaal Ruins so...I'd say probably not.

I'm more curious about what the deal with that voidsent-obsessed Gridanian dollmaker is given that we've now gotten two optional MSQ references to them in 6.1 and 6.3 via the restricted archives and a note in Laps Manalis.

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Originally Posted by Thighland

Am I the only one that thought that there is more to this map selling guy (Zasshal) than meets the eye?
At first glance he just seems like a swindler that sells maps that may or may not be real.
But not only was his map legit, it also contained magic that literally opened up the way to Vrtra's hidden vault, which I believe no one would have expected.

Let's also not forget that Emet Selch knew of Alzadal's legacy, and if Emet knew about it, chances are that other, surviving ascians also know about it.
My theory is that Zasshal might be a sundered ascian that wanted us to find the void gate, for whatever reason.

Also: is it just me, or is this guy's face / hair unique? I haven't seen any other NPC that looks like him
https://imgur.com/44P713t

Apparently Zasshal is also a character from FF11, which I don't think is a coincidence.
There must be more to this guy than just being a throwaway character.

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While I would agree with you that this guy's accuracy is sus in retrospect (beyond being an actual criminal suspect), I'm sorry, I'm not gonna pull punches on this: I will say that I'd be EXTREMELY disappointed if he was an Ascian. If he were a voidsent puppet, I'd be interested, that suggests a bigger voidsent plan; if he were a plant from the Satrap's agents, I'd be interested, because that would suggest Vrtra wasn't completely caught aback. But another Ascian plot? Frankly, I'd completely check out of the story he'd be linked to, Ascians are so thoroughly worn out at this point that, if even the central MSQ right now was Ancient/Ascian-related despite them saying their story was over, along with both raid stories being related, I'd check out of the whole story because I'd be convinced the writers have literally nothing else in the tank; that despite everything in FFXIV, they can't possibly write a core story without it being about Ascians.

Sorry, that frustration isn't really aimed at you, but I really am just extremely tired of Ascians and think the story needs as much time away from them as it can get before I'd be even remotely interested in hearing about them again.

Also: both Gamer Escape and Garland Tools report that Zasshal is entirely stock, no unique assets at all. (He's a face #6 Midlander, which might explain your unfamiliarity since Face #6 is new.) His outfit is a mashup of healing and gathering pieces, but even they're stock.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Alzadaal's Legacy itself is a XI reference to the Alzadaal Ruins so...I'd say probably not.

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But the fact that his magic map did exactly what it needed to do to lead us to a treasure / voidgate that no one should know about except Vrtra and his closest servants still remains.
That Emet knew about the vault is also a fact. If Vrtra's vault was irrelevant to the Ascian's interests, why would they know about it?
It's too convenient to be a coincidence, I don't buy it.

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Ascians are so thoroughly worn out at this point that, if even the central MSQ right now was Ancient/Ascian-related despite them saying their story was over,

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Yeah, the ambitions of the Ascians ended with the defeat of Zodiark.
But that doesn't mean that the remaining convocation members can't have their own interesting stories to tell, stories that don't necessarily have to be about being another villain like Lahabrea / Emet / Elidibus / Fandaniel.
Who knows, maybe the remaining Ascians are our allies, and that would be refreshing enough for me.

Also worth pointing out: It's been rather established in-universe fact that magical treasure maps that open gateways to ancient treasure vaults are a reasonably known thing in the world of FFXIV. Hell, a bunch of them lead directly into Radz-at-Han's canals, of which we can just walk up to the gate of, and multiple quests directly acknowledge.

I remember when that was the first hook announced for 6.1 I was pleased at how not only was it refreshingly normal, but it folded in a part of the game that actually makes complete sense for where everyone are as characters after Endwalker. Straight-up, the opening hook for 6.1 was 'the WoL and Estinien start a map team on a lazy day when they had nothing better to do', and that tracked completely.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also worth pointing out: It's been rather established in-universe fact that magical treasure maps that open gateways to ancient treasure vaults are a reasonably known thing in the world of FFXIV. Hell, a bunch of them lead directly into Radz-at-Han's canals, of which we can just walk up to the gate of, and multiple quests directly acknowledge.

I remember when that was the first hook announced for 6.1 I was pleased at how not only was it refreshingly normal, but it folded in a part of the game that actually makes complete sense for where everyone are as characters after Endwalker. Straight-up, the opening hook for 6.1 was 'the WoL and Estinien start a map team on a lazy day when they had nothing better to do', and that tracked completely.

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True, though that still doesn't explain why the map exists.
Until now treasure maps have only been a lore excuse for a certain type of minigame, and for that it was enough.
But now that it's actually relevant to the MSQ I'd like to have some more information than just "Magical Maps just exist in the lore and that's why we can go to a place that is supposed to be a really close guarded state-secret"

It still would have been just a side thing we the players do until they started hinting that treasure map nights were an actual thing in the story and that a few people did them in their spare time. As when you're exploring Radz -at-Han with Estinien there's an opportunity to have a chat with him about the all too familiar gate. That he hints that he's done a few of them himself. Can't be too close of a guarded state secret if there were stories about the treasure vault throughout the ages. Just what was really hiding in said vault on the other hand. Most people don't think about trying to explore a place that is known to have no one come back from.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Alzadaal's Legacy itself is a XI reference to the Alzadaal Ruins so...I'd say probably not.

I'm more curious about what the deal with that voidsent-obsessed Gridanian dollmaker is given that we've now gotten two optional MSQ references to them in 6.1 and 6.3 via the restricted archives and a note in Laps Manalis.

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Hmm... remind me, when exactly did Azdaja get lost in the Void? Was it before or after this dollmaker supposedly disappeared?
Just wondering if there's any connection to Golbez...

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Hmm... remind me, when exactly did Azdaja get lost in the Void? Was it before or after this dollmaker supposedly disappeared?
Just wondering if there's any connection to Golbez...

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Long ago, as in 4th Era and Allag long ago.

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Originally Posted by Thighland

True, though that still doesn't explain why the map exists.
Until now treasure maps have only been a lore excuse for a certain type of minigame, and for that it was enough.
But now that it's actually relevant to the MSQ I'd like to have some more information than just "Magical Maps just exist in the lore and that's why we can go to a place that is supposed to be a really close guarded state-secret"

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I could get you a map to Area 51 right now. I don't recommend following it, but I could. 'Closely-guarded state secret' doesn't mean 'absolutely unfindable', it usually means 'you get killed if you try to get close'. And... well, as you might recall, the defenses did try that!

Given that Thavnair's government actually did send people to Alzadaal's Legacy to maintain its defenses, and that it's existed for a very long time, I can very easily imagine that there were maps to it. Hell, that might be a map from Thavnair's government that fell out of their hands; you might recall, Thavnair had a bit of trouble that led to a lot of panic fairly recently at that point, I think it'd be absolutely understandable that some government official dropped a map.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I could get you a map to Area 51 right now. I don't recommend following it, but I could. 'Closely-guarded state secret' doesn't mean 'absolutely unfindable', it usually means 'you get killed if you try to get close'. And... well, as you might recall, the defenses did try that!

Given that Thavnair's government actually did send people to Alzadaal's Legacy to maintain its defenses, and that it's existed for a very long time, I can very easily imagine that there were maps to it. Hell, that might be a map from Thavnair's government that fell out of their hands; you might recall, Thavnair had a bit of trouble that led to a lot of panic fairly recently at that point, I think it'd be absolutely understandable that some government official dropped a map.

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Best part of that dungeon was getting reprimanded for destroying the golems lol.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

Best part of that dungeon was getting reprimanded for destroying the golems lol.

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And then finding out that Estinien did it a second time.