[Suggestion] FFXIV punishment system rework

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

The person initiating the vote kick is the 1st person. The other two that aren't you are #2 and #3. there fore it is 3 vs. 1. If you're always the person getting kicked, the problem may be you, no?

Also if anything is said in the chat that might indicate they are dumping you for a friend of theirs (say at like the last boss of the dungeon) you can report them for abuse of the vote kick system.

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Ok, let's do the math together.
How kick works:
#1 One person should initiate vote and his vote is auto - YES
#2 Second person votes for kick - YES
#3 Third person votes for NOT kick - NO
#4 Person against whom vote initiated do not votes so his opinion not counted

Now let's do calculation:
YES = 2, NO = 1 (+1 if we count #4 as innocent by presumption of innocence)
2>1, so #4 person get himself kicked
So in reality u need only two votes and this is really mater of who started shooting first.
But if we do math getting in mind vote of #4 person it is:
2>2 that is wrong, so persons should be kicked by majority of 3

As I said earlier, I had myself kicked less than 10 times in whole gaming experience that less than 1% of all my experience and near error rate.

so just because the possibility exists that you *might* get kicked for any reason, you want to change the whole system? just because "it's an inconvenience". laughable. not gonna happen. system works as intended. if you don't like it you're gonna have to lump it. if you can't lump it because "oh boo hoo I don't wanna have to deal with it" then get out of here. please.

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Originally Posted by Abyss_me

As I said earlier u need only 2 persons to vote 'kick', not 3.
And this vote is surely court case ~ social situation of Lynching.

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are you really comparing being vote kicked from a dungeon to being hanged in the public street by a mob where they then take pictures of the dead body and make those photos into postcards? because that is what lynching was

Not exactly a fix. But at this point with the way leveling is a little unbalanced and pointless for gear. I suggest the equivalent of Astral earrings for all slots up to current expansions. Which is something they should have looked into instead of the other fix they put into place which still doesn't promote very good gear progression while leveling.



What about the crafters you say. Just from leveling an alt to 50, doing no side quests, except the essential ones for opening content. I was almost always 10 levels above. Making open world quests trivial and not worth upgrading gear. So really only needed it for a dungeon. Dubgeon drops are worthless since again 10 levels past it. Go to the MB you say. The MB items do not line up with what you make questing. Even vendor price on some of the stuff you can get isn't really in line. You simply level way to fast to build up extra gil. Crafters also don't need the exp from crafting a million ingots any more. The game has streamlined that.



The attitude thing will always be around. You don't like them they don't like you. You want a run in 10 minutes because you don't want to socialize and they want a 25 min run and a chat. It is the internet and personalities will clash. Also he idea that players will police themselves. This isn't 2001. Where you get a bad name and never get a group again you get randos and never have to play that nice.

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Originally Posted by Abyss_me

And yes, I've experienced kick just because 2 persons was in party and they wanted to invite 3rd one in active duty.

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Well? You have found a legitimate reason to report them, then? Did you do that already?
Otherwise, current system is working as intended: preventing abuse.

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Originally Posted by Abyss_me

Opinion of kicked person does mean because we have "Presumption of innocence" so that person can't be found guilty before guilty if proofed.

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No, it does not matter.
There's a reason why the kicked player do not suffer 30m penalty, unlike being the first to abandon the duty on their own whim. Guilty or not, on the flip side they are also given the leniency to -immediately- queue back into DF, in hoping they'll get a better group that clicks with them.

'What if they abuse it by <insert abuse>?'
There's the other side of a coin. The game gives you a tool to report a legitimate abuse. Use it.

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Originally Posted by Abyss_me

Ok, let's do the math together.
How kick works...

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Uhh no. :confused:
How do we start a vote kick in the party again? Open the party interface --> find the player's name --> right click & select 'vote kick' opt. Now this is where your 'math' starts to fall apart: why would you start the vote if you -don't want- to vote to kick that person?

Bringing up the vote itself is same as saying 'Excuse me, I wish to show this person the exit door. What do you (other two member) say?'. You are clearly stating your intention and why (1 from 4 opt of reason to kick).
According to your 'math', however, it works more like: 'Excuse me, do you want to get out of here?'. Your intention here is vague & the subject's opinion suddenly matters.

No, it just won't work like that. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Not exactly a fix. But at this point with the way leveling is a little unbalanced and pointless for gear. I suggest the equivalent of Astral earrings for all slots up to current expansions. Which is something they should have looked into instead of the other fix they put into place which still doesn't promote very good gear progression while leveling.



What about the crafters you say. Just from leveling an alt to 50, doing no side quests, except the essential ones for opening content. I was almost always 10 levels above. Making open world quests trivial and not worth upgrading gear. So really only needed it for a dungeon. Dubgeon drops are worthless since again 10 levels past it. Go to the MB you say. The MB items do not line up with what you make questing. Even vendor price on some of the stuff you can get isn't really in line. You simply level way to fast to build up extra gil. Crafters also don't need the exp from crafting a million ingots any more. The game has streamlined that.



The attitude thing will always be around. You don't like them they don't like you. You want a run in 10 minutes because you don't want to socialize and they want a 25 min run and a chat. It is the internet and personalities will clash. Also he idea that players will police themselves. This isn't 2001. Where you get a bad name and never get a group again you get randos and never have to play that nice.

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Oh, your idea is really cool! I want to point that SE actually tried to solve this problem by placing merchants with all gear from level 1 to 50 in all major city states (like it is in FFXI) + by adding gear shops in every addons. Problem is that new players can hardly find this shops and does not feel necessity to upgrade.

Friendly reminder for everybody that we just discuss system, it pross and cons, how it could be improved and why do we need it. So try to be polite and don't try to get on personalities.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Well? You have found a legitimate reason to report them, then? Did you do that already?
Otherwise, current system is working as intended: preventing abuse.

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Yeah, as I saying current system suffer from abuse. I understand that support ticket should be filed on this occasions but it's time consuming nervous procedure where u should provide a lot of evidences, timestamps and etc. It's not something u should do in game to get enjoyment.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

There's a reason why the kicked player do not suffer 30m penalty

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But u know too about cases when players waited for 40~50 mins in que to be votekicked from duty on final boss just because, aren't u? It's very frustrating experience.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Bringing up the vote itself is same as saying 'Excuse me, I wish to show this person the exit door. What do you (other two member) say?'. You are clearly stating your intention and why (1 from 4 opt of reason to kick).
According to your 'math', however, it works more like: 'Excuse me, do you want to get out of here?'. Your intention here is vague & the subject's opinion suddenly matters.

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I'm saying that
Party_1(#1, #2) can abuse system kicking anyone from Party_2(#3,#4) and vice versa

Duty of 8 people.
1 person is being a dick.
7 people don't want to play with the dick.
Who should have to leave?

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Originally Posted by Abyss_me

I fully agree with u that existing punishment system is shackles people living and such expectations lead to toxic witch hunting behavior. That's why I created this thread in 1st place.

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I meant entirely in response to how you were regarding others, not how the game is. The way of reducing how and why they might want to play, including ways you may not recognize or understand.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Duty of 8 people.
1 person is being a dick.
7 people don't want to play with the dick.
Who should have to leave?

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Its worse when you think about alliances... Clearly the Op is in the mind set is in
1 person is being a Dick
23 people dont want to play with that one person
23 people should leave and that one person should keep drawning in more people into what is essentially a trap party.

I generally subscribe to the theory of have respect for others, dont be a jerk just because you can be and play within the rules.
I have never been the subject of a vote kick or a "false flag" situation regarding rule breaking.

it may not be a popular concept, but playing nice with others usually has benefits.


Edit: in terms or running across jerks etc in duties.. blacklisting and never seeing them again works. I dont have any issues with the present system

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Originally Posted by Abyss_me

and many of my friends and FC members said same - just stop partying with random players, let the toxic people be in their toxic world of Duty Finder so they can just digest each other. But it badly hurts whole our community. I personally love to play with newbies, such a fun when somebody run away with stuck marker and u pull him with 'rescue', or meet the panic when they introduced with doom or other crazy new mechanics. It's a marital bliss. And u just saying leave our new blood to be devoured by monsters of duty finder. Then it comes to me with no surprise that we have that community that we have nowadays. This ignorance pains my heart.

Btw Jojoya and DrWho2010, are you saying that something wrong with me? You offensively called me 'selfish' and said that i don't have 'tolerance' in me. It sound like u bulling me with no reason, so please stop trolling me. Just friendly advice, because this attitude will lead to your kick in any party!

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The toxicity is in your attitude, not Duty Finder. It's extremely rare that I have had any toxic encounters in Duty Finder. If they are that common for you, you might want to take a closer look at the common denominator in those encounters.

I'm not saying everyone should give up on random matchmaking in Duty Finder. Most of us find it easy to get along with other players we meet there and we'll still be there to help the new players and less skilled players get their duties completed.

I'm saying that you should when all you can do is complain about how you want to be abandoning groups without penalty..

Disagreeing with you and your sentiments is not trolling you.

Also, I've been kicked from parties twice in the 14 years I've been playing MMOs. You admit to getting kicked from parties far more often. My attitude doesn't seem to be causing me any problems. Yours, on the other hand, evidently has been causing problems for you.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

so you'd want to maintain a public witch hunt list? boy you must be fun at parties.

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He may or may not.

A lot of other people would LIKE to see one on this side of the pond.

I get this a bait thread, but if self-moderation is not working why would more self-moderation help?

A parable for you OP... Maybe you will understand it.

The old farmer leaned against the fence that separated his rich farmland from the county road that led to the city, in the shade of an equally old oak tree. He wiped his brow, taking a brief rest from his hard mid-summer labors. A gentle breeze blew across his face, providing some respite but it was no match for the hot summer sun, which danced in mottled patches around his feet as the breeze jostled the oak leaves in the canopy above him.

A car appeared on the horizon. As it got closer, it slowed and pulled onto the shoulder across from him. A well-dressed man in his 40s opened the door of his late-model sedan and walked briskly over to the farmer. With a warm, genuine smile, he complemented the farmer’s many acres of fine crops. “This is a mighty fine spread you’ve got here, sir,” the stranger said. The man shook the farmer’s hand vigorously.

“Thank you, kind sir,” the farmer replied. There was something about his attitude and his energy that made the farmer take an immediate liking to him. “What can I do for you?”

“I’m moving to the city. I’ve got a new job there,” the stranger explained. “I was wondering if you could tell me: What sort of people live there? What are they like?”

The farmer thought for a minute, and asked the stranger: “Well, what kind of people do you have in the place where you came from?”

The stranger flashed a quick grin, remembering how fine those folks were. “They’re the nicest, hardest working and friendly bunch you’ve ever seen,” he replied confidently, as a wide grin crossed his face. “Any one of them would literally give you the shirt off of his back.”

The farmer considered this glowing recommendation, cracked a weathered smile and then replied, “Well, then those are the kind of people you’ll meet in the city.”

The stranger smiled approvingly, satisfied to hear that the city that beckoned at the end of his long journey would be a welcoming place, full of interesting people and new opportunities. He thanked the farmer, hopped in his car and drove off. A cloud of dust kicked up from the shoulder of the road still hung in the barely-moving air as the car receded to the size of a dot on the horizon.

Soon after, a second car came speeding down the country road and pulled over to its shoulder across from the farmer. The driver beeped his horn and lowered the passenger side window of his car. “Excuse me, sir. I was wondering if you could help me,” he shouted.

The old farmer ambled over to the side of the car. The driver was another middle-aged man. But this one looked looked like he had lived a much harder life than his first visitor. His forehead was furrowed with worry lines, and he wore a look of hard concern on his face. Judging by this stranger’s attitude, the farmer guessed that he didn’t smile very much. “Yes, sir, how can I help you?” the farmer asked.

“I’m on my way to the city. I’m relocating their for my job. I was wondering if you could tell me what the people are like there?”

The old farmer answered this familiar query with the same question he posed to the first stranger: “Before I answer that, tell me this: What are the folks like where you came from?”

The second stranger scowled, shook his head and replied disdainfully, “They’re the biggest bunch of cheats, liars and cheapskates I’ve ever seen in my life. I wouldn’t trust most of them any farther than I could throw them. Good riddance to bad rubbish. That’s what I say,” he added seriously.

“Well, then,” replied the farmer, pointing his finger at the second stranger, “Those are exactly the kind of people you’ll find in the city.” The stranger shook his head with a distasteful scowl, disgusted to think that the people he encountered in the city would be no better than the ne’er-do-wells he left behind.

In regards to the actual uh... topic? of the thread: I think it works as intended. Any malusage can be reported, and if you personally don't like doing that then bully for you I suppose, it works. No need for any further self-policing, because self-policing communities online have been shown to just degrade into ultra-toxic messes. And in any case...

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...351&height=299

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Originally Posted by Abyss_me

People abuse it anyway. If you get something you don't like u just leave and mind yr own business by RP, FATE or any other non-duty activity. So it not works in current condition either.

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Yes, you get 30 minutes to cool your heels instead of immediately queueing up and doing it again and then again and then again and then again and then again screwing over group after group until you get what you want

Imagine a tank or a healer doing this

i propose we build a stocks in all major city states and allow the rpers to emote /throw things at players who fail dps checks

Incoming popcorn! yumeee!;) let the clash of titans begins!! COMBOOOO.....!

I constantly run into people in dungeons who have no idea how to play their job.

It's irritating but I just finish the dungeon. You seem to feel that, rather than just finishing the dungeon, you must comment on it, and will surely be kicked.

Maybe figure out a way to communicate without being kicked.

It certainly doesn’t hurt to ask people if they want tips. Then you’re giving them a choice. Aside from that you can’t control people. “If you consistently find yourself surrounded by assholes, then its possible, just maybe, that you’re the asshole.”

We had such a system before the implementation of vote kick. It didn't go so well so vote kick was added. I understand the frustration that comes with being viewed as "toxic" when trying to give players suggestions and advice, but in all honesty none of it is ever really needed for dungeon content or trial roulette.