Simple Fix to PLD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

OK, apparently you don't understand that 100-200 more Defense does not equate to 10-20% more damage mitigation. Not even for physical attacks, which is all that Defense effects, when at a negative dLv not to mention that it does nothing for magic-based attacks which matter much more.

---

Take a hit from Chimera on your PLD and then on your DRG. (or for added fun, your BLM

Let me know your results.

I am interested in knowing what game it is you are playing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Take a hit from Chimera on your PLD and then on your DRG. (or for added fun, your BLM

Let me know your results.

I am interested in knowing what game it is you are playing.

---

Eat a breath/voice from Chimera on PLD and then on DRG.

I am interested in knowing what game it is you are playing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Eat a breath/voice from Chimera on PLD and then on DRG.

I am interested in knowing what game it is you are playing.

---

I'm sorry, when did we switch to magic resistance? I recall the conversation to be on physical defense.

Anyway...

If your entire basis for PLD needing a buff is magic resistance, then you should have said that.

Everywhere else, PLD is a better, and more versatile tank.

WAR is a better DPS/Tank hybrid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I'm sorry, when did we switch to magic resistance? I recall the conversation to be on physical defense.

Anyway...

If your entire basis for PLD needing a buff is magic resistance, then you should have said that.

---

DEF is still useless tho If you think def matters i dare you to go aggro an lvl 70 mob and see how far your def takes you. Dlvl is the onlything that matter in this game when it comes to DEF/Magic def.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I'm sorry, when did we switch to magic resistance? I recall the conversation to be on physical defense.

Anyway...

If your entire basis for PLD needing a buff is magic resistance, then you should have said that.

---

Please read.

I have been saying global damage mitigation from the beginning. I even liken my request to the effect of Sentinel: %-based damage mitigation. This reduces incoming damage, be it physical or magical, by a set % regardless of dLv and/or any other factors.

The part about DEF and it mattering more on lower level mobs is actually not entirely accurate. To generally say that "DEF matters more on lower level mobs" is a fairly accurate statement; however this has NOTHING to do with dLVL.

DEF is simply better the lower amount of damage you are currently taking. It doesn't matter what level the mob is relative to you or what you actual DEF rating is at the time. In general, if you are taking less damage, adding another point of DEF is better than a situation where you take more. This again has NOTHING to do with dLVL. If for some reason an R58 mob was hitting you for 100 damage and an R50 was hitting you for 200 damage, DEF would matter more for the R50 than the R58. Again, this is because the efficiency of adding DEF has NOTHING to do with dLVL. The main factor is simply how much damage you are taking.

If you want to see what dLVL actually does for DEF, fighting higher level mobs actually INCREASES the efficiency of defense with all other damage being kept equal. So if you have an R50 and R55 mob that both do 100 damage, adding 1 DEF actually is more meaningful for the R55 scenario than the R50. The reason people generally say DEF is bad on high level targets is because they have higher stats, hence do more damage. More damage taken = DEF matters less. But this really has nothing to do with dLVL and more to do with the fact they do more damage from higher stats.

Now regarding your actual argument, I think it still ends up being the same. Most high level mobs do more damage, so yes DEF does mean less. But again, I just want to stress that it's the high damage that makes DEF not as good - not the actual dLVL amount. I hope this clarifies things.

How about SE puts it on gear.

In the form of DEF and M.DEF.
EVA and M.EVA

Like, add whatever quantity would give tanks 10-20% damage reduction.

Oh, right, they already have that.

Disregard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaeko

The part about DEF and it mattering more on lower level mobs is actually not entirely accurate. To generally say that "DEF matters more on lower level mobs" is a fairly accurate statement; however this has NOTHING to do with dLVL.

DEF is simply better the lower amount of damage you are currently taking. It doesn't matter what level the mob is relative to you or what you actual DEF rating is at the time. In general, if you are taking less damage, adding another point of DEF is better than a situation where you take more. This again has NOTHING to do with dLVL. If for some reason an R58 mob was hitting you for 100 damage and an R50 was hitting you for 200 damage, DEF would matter more for the R50 than the R58. Again, this is because the efficiency of adding DEF has NOTHING to do with dLVL. The main factor is simply how much damage you are taking.

If you want to see what dLVL actually does for DEF, fighting higher level mobs actually INCREASES the efficiency of defense with all other damage being kept equal. So if you have an R50 and R55 mob that both do 100 damage, adding 1 DEF actually is more meaningful for the R55 scenario than the R50. The reason people generally say DEF is bad on high level targets is because they have higher stats, hence do more damage. More damage taken = DEF matters less. But this really has nothing to do with dLVL and more to do with the fact they do more damage from higher stats.

Now regarding your actual argument, I think it still ends up being the same. Most high level mobs do more damage, so yes DEF does mean less. But again, I just want to stress that it's the high damage that makes DEF not as good - not the actual dLVL amount. I hope this clarifies things.

---

My mistake.

Thank you very much for chiming in Kaeko. Good to know that despite the error in my statements, that Defense still ultimately less important against the stronger enemies that essentially are the focus of these adjustment proposals. For a second there I was about to question my entire collection of experiences in game which told me Defense wasn't helping me much against these powerful bosses like it did for mobs in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Let me spell this out;
WAR
has higher base HP
5 threat generation skills: (Voke, collusion, weaponskill, Flash, Dps)
3 Damage reduction skills: (Rampart Sentnel and foresight)
1 heal: Second Wind
Thats it... Thats all it can do.

---

I dunno why people keep forgetting half the WAR abilities or their functions when making comparisons to PLD.

Antagonize- Increases Enmity per action similar to Sentinel
Second Wind- Can generate hate just like cures can.
Vengeance- Redirects 50% damage back at the enemy. (AKA -50% damage taken, comparable to Sentinel on PLD.)
Featherfoot- Can dodge an attack altogether.
Bloodbath- Heals you based on damage from your next WS.
Rampart- Can heal your HP = Damage done when you Crit, it's healing effect stacks with AoE's, and WAR's power increases as damage is dealt to you meaning more Enmity.

I know the hate argument is irrelevant as long as whomever is tanking can hold it, personally I haven't had an issue on either job. But I still think PLD receives the short end of the stick simply because WAR and PLD's defensive capabilities are not far apart from one another, yet the DPS gap is as wide as the Grand Canyon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

My mistake.

Thank you very much for chiming in Kaeko. Good to know that despite the error in my statements, that Defense still ultimately less important against the stronger enemies that essentially are the focus of these adjustment proposals. For a second there I was about to question my entire collection of experiences in game which told me Defense wasn't helping me much against these powerful bosses like it did for mobs in general.

---

Go get hit by a level 70 mob in full PLD AF

Then go get hit by the same mob in DRG AF.

Unless you can prove to me that DEF does not in fact reduce that damage. Stop making assumptions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

How about SE puts it on gear.

In the form of DEF and M.DEF.
EVA and M.EVA

Like, add whatever quantity would give tanks 10-20% damage reduction.

Oh, right, they already have that.

Disregard.

---

MDEF no longer exists.

They are not nearly as potent as %-based damage reduction against strong foes.

A trait defines the class/job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

MDEF no longer exists.

They are not nearly as potent as %-based damage reduction against strong foes.

A trait defines the class/job.

---

So does the gear.

At least on gear they could at it in any quantity they see fit. and add/remove other stats to balance accordingly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Go get hit by a level 70 mob in full PLD AF

Then go get hit by the same mob in DRG AF.

Unless you can prove to me that DEF does not in fact reduce that damage. Stop making assumptions.

---

I'm not saying DEF does nothing. I'm saying it doesn't do enough to merit using PLD over WAR. Ever.

Really, if I have to keep repeating myself with you, I'm just gonna stop trying lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I'm not saying DEF does nothing. I'm saying it doesn't do enough to merit using PLD over WAR. Ever.

Really, if I have to keep repeating myself with you, I'm just gonna stop trying lol.

---

And I never said PLD over WAR was a discussion about its DEF, I said PLD is more versatile than WAR.

If anything, I somewhat agree with you, but I think PLD should have HIGHER DEF than it does now, NOT a trait.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

And I never said PLD over WAR was a discussion about its DEF, I said PLD is more versatile than WAR.

If anything, I somewhat agree with you, but I think PLD should have HIGHER DEF than it does now, NOT a trait.

---

Ok, as far as the details of the idea goes I think we can agree to disagree.

As long as we agree in the idea that PLD needs to be taking significantly less damage than WAR, and that it is not the case now, then we are essentially asking for the same thing.

I just base how much less damage it should be taking on the notion that it should be viable to be able to bring 1 less WHM to instances where a PLD is tanking then when a WAR is tanking, which more than makes up for the difference in DPS due to the inclusion of another DD, and allow for PLD to actually use Holy Succor on party members instead of regretting not using it on itself each time it's available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Ok, as far as the details of the idea goes I think we can agree to disagree.

As long as we agree in the idea that PLD needs to be taking significantly less damage than WAR, and that it is not the case now, then we are essentially asking for the same thing.

I just base how much less damage it should be taking on the notion that it should be viable to be able to bring 1 less WHM to instances where a PLD is tanking then when a WAR is tanking, which more than makes up for the difference in DPS due to the inclusion of another DD, and allow for PLD to actually use Holy Succor on party members instead of regretting not using it on itself each time it's available.

---

On it's own, using no skills?

I have no issue with it taking the same "general swing damage" as WAR.

Its skills are what make it unique,

I would like to see PLD get more "magic damage mitigation reduction skills"

it already has enough normal damage mitigation over WAR

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Some fair points there for enmity jwang. I wasn't aware that healing-based enmity was shared across all mobs, and while that is a valid cause of concern it provides no downside for fights against single boss mobs. Also, I don't know what you mean by Sentinel being broken. I know it does not enhance enmity generated through heals or Rampart, but I do know it enhances enmity generated by Provoke and Flash.

As for your various points as far as damage mitigation, I am well aware that Defense has a diminished effect and isn't useful, hence my suggestion of a %-based damage mitigation trait.

---

Sentinel is supposed to boost enmity done by ALL actions. ALL actions, as stated by the tooltip. So when I pop Sentinel, I expect every thing I do, whether it's auto-attack, an ability, healing, or weaponskill, to generate an increased amount of enmity. Not this shenanigans with some abilities not getting boosted.

Also, don't you find WAR's unlimited resource to heal himself in addition to having it instant and castable on the move unfair to PLDs? PLDs have to manage MP, time their casts so that they don't get interrupted, and know who is in range and can be healed to generate maximum hate. In comparison, WARs just faceroll and gain enmity, no worries about survival just pop Bloodbath and Mighty Strikes!

Reduce MP cost for Holy Succor as well as make it instant cast, restore more MP from Outmaneuver, make one of PLD's moves convert TP to MP, make one of PLD's abilities solely for magic resistance, make shield blocks actually something that is meaningful outside of trash and XP, and fix Sentinel for crying out loud!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

On it's own, using no skills?

I have no issue with it taking the same "general swing damage" as WAR.

Its skills are what make it unique,

I would like to see PLD get more "magic damage mitigation reduction skills"

it already has enough normal damage mitigation over WAR

---

I can agree with that. Being that magic-based attacks tend to be the most devastating kinds in XIV's boss battles, it can be singled out as the primary culprit in why the community has come to prefer WAR as a tank in virtually every scenario.

Something like magic evasion, however, is effected by dLv and furthermore not reliable as a form of damage mitigation. This is why I came to the conclusion that %-based damage mitigation, the only reliable, consistent form of mitigation against magical attacks from very high level, powerful enemies that I have seen, is the way to accomplish this.

Perhaps adding large overall elemental resistances to their armor would be a way to go, but even then I'm not sure if those effect astral/umbral/non-elemental magic damage.

Adding individual resistances for each of the main elements sounds like a good idea.

Actually, come to think of it, maybe magic resistance materia should be buffed to be allowed in more slots and weigh heavier on tanking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jwang

Sentinel is supposed to boost enmity done by ALL actions. ALL actions, as stated by the tooltip. So when I pop Sentinel, I expect every thing I do, whether it's auto-attack, an ability, healing, or weaponskill, to generate an increased amount of enmity. Not this shenanigans with some abilities not getting boosted.

Also, don't you find WAR's unlimited resource to heal himself in addition to having it instant and castable on the move unfair to PLDs? PLDs have to manage MP, time their casts so that they don't get interrupted, and know who is in range and can be healed to generate maximum hate. In comparison, WARs just faceroll and gain enmity, no worries about survival just pop Bloodbath and Mighty Strikes!

Reduce MP cost for Holy Succor as well as make it instant cast, restore more MP from Outmaneuver, make one of PLD's moves convert TP to MP, make one of PLD's abilities solely for magic resistance, make shield blocks actually something that is meaningful outside of trash and XP, and fix Sentinel for crying out loud!

---

This is the kind of overdoing I was referring to in my OP. Second Wind, whilst recovering HP instantly and not using any resource, is available only every 45 seconds and heals for around 500-550 HP on a non-PGL/MNK.

Holy Succor on the other hand, is available every 10 seconds, heals target for ~1k, and when used on another party member it also heals he PLD for ~500.

I think that's quite balanced.

The idea isn't for PLD to play more like WAR. It's for PLD to be at least as effective a tank as WAR in many scenarios, but in it's own way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Adding individual resistances for each of the main elements sounds like a good idea.

Actually, come to think of it, maybe magic resistance materia should be buffed to be allowed in more slots and weigh heavier on tanking.

---

Yea, I mean you'd think a magically-enhanced profession like a Paladin would be more effective in defending against magical attacks than a purely physical profession like WAR. Alas, SE disappoints.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Yea, I mean you'd think a magically-enhanced profession like a Paladin would be more effective in defending against magical attacks than a purely physical profession like WAR. Alas, SE disappoints.

---

Its possible SE is saving a "magic tank" class for that.

GO GO RED MAGE!

The implication that the only reason people are unhappy with paladin is because they need to L2P is pretty laughable.

As I've said before a million times, extra defense won't help the paladin because you can 1 heal pretty much everything anyway.

Until there's content that justifies the use of a "heavy" tank, they'll be a useless class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madruk

As I've said before a million times, extra defense won't help the paladin because you can 1 heal pretty much everything anyway.

Until there's content that justifies the use of a "heavy" tank, they'll be a useless class.

---

PLD isn't even a heavy tank. It needs just as much heals as a WAR and can't even spare to repeatedly throw it's own Holy Succor around on others. Thus, it is undesirable as it isn't worth the massive lack in damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madruk

As I've said before a million times, extra defense won't help the paladin because you can 1 heal pretty much everything anyway.

Until there's content that justifies the use of a "heavy" tank, they'll be a useless class.

---

PLD isn't a heavy tank... its more like a war with hate issues, low HP and no damage output.

Direct damage mitigation doesn't really solve the issue. Take a WAR with 5k HP and a PLD with 4k HP and give the PLD a 20% reduction. They would both be loosing the same % of their health, so one would not be better that the other in terms of taking damage cause they would both be taking the "same" damage. Although I do wish that the PLD AF set had higher base def. than the Cobalt set. But what can we do?...

Yes please. I'm tired of swinging this damn Axe already.

square needs to fix PLD ASAP wont be good to have a shitty tank only job thats worthless in the re-launch in a few months, then that alone can fail the game.

paladin is tank only it seems they need to make it a damage absorbing brick wall that can make all the mobs want to attack.

Would probably help to take off the restrictions on Parry while wielding a shield as well.

Some really good ideas in this thread. I hope SE takes some of them into serious consideration~

After reading http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html , I would like to partially withdraw my previous comment. Def hardly does anything when facing mobs a lot higher than oneself.

Btw DoctorMog War Provoke has an attack down effect as well, which is yet another hidden damage reduction effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanishingSasquatch

Direct damage mitigation doesn't really solve the issue. Take a WAR with 5k HP and a PLD with 4k HP and give the PLD a 20% reduction. They would both be loosing the same % of their health, so one would not be better that the other in terms of taking damage cause they would both be taking the "same" damage. Although I do wish that the PLD AF set had higher base def. than the Cobalt set. But what can we do?...

---

The unfair advantage for Pld would be that it's easier healed by your Whm. In % Pld and War take the same damage, but whm will heal Pld for 20% more compared to War.

What about instacast Holy Succor? I think that's the real answer... why is PLD punished for taking hits like its supposed to? HP getting low and you need to self cure in a pinch? Uh-oh, your cast got interrupted twice in a row and now your dead... It's not reasonable to expect the PLD to be not taking hits for long enough to cast that consistently. Since the MP thing was resolved, I feel like this is what's hurting PLDs survivability more than anything..

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy..._character.jpg

We need her!

Longsword

Thunder Slash Inflicts Thunder-elemental damage upon one opposing target.
Stock Break Inflicts non-elemental damage upon all opposing targets.
Climhazzard Inflicts heavy non-elemental damage upon all opposing targets.
Shock Inflicts massive physical damage upon one opposing target.

I agree PLD can use a natural damage mitigation boost. Something passive so that it is always active. All jobs can use some job exclusive traits as a matter of fact.

Some key things I think PLD need.

○ Damage Mitigation.

○ Auto Refresh

○ A weapon skill that inflicts more damage based on your current enmity level.
Adds more enmity when used. This could be a magical damage weapon skill.

I agree with OP about the objective of PLD's design.

If you ask me, I have my image of PLD and WAR like this:

Paladin (knight) - Tankers that have several skills/spells that can protect their allies and have great damage reduction.

Warrior - Mighty tankers that have strong body that can endure a lot of damage (which mean having a lot of hp) and can weaken foes that surrounding them (Provoke to reduce AP) and WARs have nothing to do with protecting allies, just fight by themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zottan

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy..._character.jpg

We need her!

Longsword

Thunder Slash Inflicts Thunder-elemental damage upon one opposing target.
Stock Break Inflicts non-elemental damage upon all opposing targets.
Climhazzard Inflicts heavy non-elemental damage upon all opposing targets.
Shock Inflicts massive physical damage upon one opposing target.

---

Gonna be painfully blunt here but none of you are fit to share her skill set :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fusional

except you're barking up the wrong tree.

paladin is an inferior tank because its rate of enmity generation is significantly lower than that of warrior. having lower base HP and doing less dps are contributing factors situationally, but damage taken really isn't the issue at all (unless your healers are slow/terrible). i mean we'd probably be using MNK tanks for mistress if they had just one more taunt.

reducing the damage paladin takes by a % does absolutely *nothing* for its enmity generation and therefore does absolutely *nothing* to solve the actual problem. which means people will still take warrior over paladin any day of the week, except for when learning an encounter.

---

Dmg reduction has an impact on enmity reduction:
dmg dealt == +enmity while dmg recieved == -enmity
Therefore a dmg reduction trait would help a pld hold hate, as would being able to spam Holy succor on someone other than themselves, these are simple game mechanics.
Most Plds also manage to hold hate just fine as is right up until they die, enmity isn't the problem so much as over working healers.

You really should stop trying to shoot down every idea out of hand. Or at least offer up some actual reason that it's a less than great idea, or maybe an alternative idea(god wouldn't that be fresh).