Can we stop comparing the two at this point?

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Originally Posted by linayar

Being "cheated" of my choice is worse to me than not having to make a choice.

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See, I'm not sure how seeing a point of division in game and not having a choice as to how your character will deal with it, or seeing a seemingly open-solution problem and not being allowed to pick how you address it, is any less a matter of "being cheated" of that choice than that the two choices eventually meet again.

Again, I'm not saying WoW always did this right. I certainly wouldn't lock rewards behind a fork in the road here, even if I personally think it's a good way to deepen investment as displayable to a community, since I know it will trigger completionists. But either case is going to "cheat" you -- and I prefer it do so in that plotlines eventually resolve and factions eventually reconcile than in that player agency is taken from me or that massive areas of opportunity must be removed from any and all storytelling just because they'd otherwise reveal how much player agency is restricted.

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Again, I'm not saying WoW always did this right.

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No, I get that, and since I actively play both games, there are obviously things I like and dislike about both games.

Anyways,

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

See, I'm not sure how seeing a point of division in game and not having a choice as to how your character will deal with it, or seeing a seemingly open-solution problem and not being allowed to pick how you address it, is any less a matter of "being cheated" of that choice than that the two choices eventually meet again.

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The reason why I do not feel cheated in FFXIV is because I feel that my character is a character in the story.

So I treat my FFXIV character the way I treat other FF protagonists. I don't always agree with what Cloud or Squall or Zidane would do, but they're not me and my character in FFXIV is not me either. And while it's fun to pick dialog choices for her, in the end it is her making that choice of how to address it (unless I abandon the quest).

In WoW, I cannot (yet) see my character as a character in the story. And when they give that kind of choices that end up being the same, it just makes it more apparent that it was never about the choice at all, because both sides of the choice would still occur regardless (with minor changes in details).

Essentially, it's part of a larger problem I have with the idea that MMO should not take into account the player character. Like at the beginning of Legion, if I play a DH, my character is the one who meets with the faction leader. If not, then a representative DH would. My character's existence simply doesn't matter.

To be sure, some of that may occur in FFXIV as well, but, noticeably for me, it's to a much lesser extent. Now I do think that the world is bigger than my character, so some things should occur with or without my character, but not when it comes to the main plot.

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Originally Posted by linayar

You do realize that the differences are what're causing the comparisons, right? If there were no differences, then there'd be nothing to compare. And development philosophy is something that can affect people's enjoyment of a game. So when you have two games in the same genre with different philosophies, comparisons are bound to happen.

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My point mostly is that I honestly think at this point it is really not possible to compare the 2 because they have diverged so much. If it was WoW during Wrath of the Lich King I could have listed MULTIPLE overlaps between core systems the two mmos shared at end game.

That has seriously changed without a doubt. They are both good MMO's that appeal to different players but trying to list out reason why you may not like FF14 leads people to believe they play the same which is a lie. You can say it runs slow at early game as an easy criticism but by end game you have more abilities then fingers to press them.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

My point mostly is that I honestly think at this point it is really not possible to compare the 2 because they have diverged so much. If it was WoW during Wrath of the Lich King I could have listed MULTIPLE overlaps between core systems the two mmos shared at end game.

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If anything, XIV takes most after a more barebone version of modern WoW, rather than anything like WotLK... Since WotLK WoW has become increasingly less RPG-centric, in that you have fewer choices to make, fewer means of customization, and the leveling experience is increasingly treated as mere prelude to the real game to be grinded through quickly. Since its rework into ARR, XIV already started at basically the far end of that path. Heck, that was a specifically stated intent with ARR Beta, that the real game would start only after level cap and that power-customization should now be minimal.

The only ways in which WoW has really diversified itself from XIV over later expansions is in a commitment to larger central systems, rather than being centered solely around token/badge/tomb/marks/points/residue grinds, and through the addition of further gameplay features atop the standard dungeon/raid experience (e.g. more raid difficulties, Mythic+, island expeditions, more PvP variants, whole zones being added after level cap with unique systems and features therein). That's not so much a forking away from XIV as just... having more stuff in general, atop the shared parts.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Personally your life will be more empty as you will not understand why Thordan is so afraid of you....who this Zenos guy is...Why Emet turns into this big thing then cries in despair during the fight about being forgotten...

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Empty? Talk about a drama filled statement. Anyone that skips can always go back through using game+ or level up another character or catch up by reading summaries on wikipedia

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Heck, that was a specifically stated intent with ARR Beta, that the real game would start only after level cap and that power-customization should now be minimal.

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I'm not sure if that's really true considering most contents are playable before max level outside of specific raids and dungeons. Even Bozja can be used as a leveling content. And of course, roulette, which can be a significant portion of one's endgame in FFXIV, is also largely used before max level outside of expert and level cap dungeons. Granted, not all rewards are available unless you are at max level, or at least, at the level range of the current expansion. And some contents require you to unlock with at least one job at max level.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

My point mostly is that I honestly think at this point it is really not possible to compare the 2 because they have diverged so much. If it was WoW during Wrath of the Lich King I could have listed MULTIPLE overlaps between core systems the two mmos shared at end game.

That has seriously changed without a doubt. They are both good MMO's that appeal to different players but trying to list out reason why you may not like FF14 leads people to believe they play the same which is a lie. You can say it runs slow at early game as an easy criticism but by end game you have more abilities then fingers to press them.

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While they're obviously different games, the point of a comparison is not necessarily (and I would even say shouldn't be) about turning one game into the other. But there are parts of one game that you could wish to be in both games rather than just one, whether it be missing features or different implementations of the same features.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ore-wow/635566

This thread is mine, btw. I made this, and here I am playing FFXIV again because my friends are here.

I don't regret it.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

My point mostly is that I honestly think at this point it is really not possible to compare the 2 because they have diverged so much. If it was WoW during Wrath of the Lich King I could have listed MULTIPLE overlaps between core systems the two mmos shared at end game.

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Really? I don't think FFXIV has a large amount of things in common with Wrath more than any of the other expansions I played (I quit at the end of WoD). I wouldn't say any of the stages of WoW are particularly more like FFXIV at all. Many of the core things that make FFXIV the game that it is are completely absent from WoW, and vice versa.

Sure they have a lot in common but this is to be expected from games within the same genre. Every mmorpg I played have a long list of basic things in common.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If anything, XIV takes most after a more barebone version of modern WoW, rather than anything like WotL...

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Completely agree, and this is what I mean by these games sharing things due to being in the same genre. The games have similar skeletons but the things that flesh out each of these games is often very very different.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

That has seriously changed without a doubt. They are both good MMO's that appeal to different players but trying to list out reason why you may not like FF14 leads people to believe they play the same which is a lie. You can say it runs slow at early game as an easy criticism but by end game you have more abilities then fingers to press them.

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Well in that case people need to be smart enough to realise that opinions are not facts, and that you often can't accurately judge the endgame of a game by looking at how it behaves only in the beginning.

For example the game "being slow" was not something that bothered me at all, but that was in part due to being aware that it would be stupid to expect a game at lvl 10 would be the same as lvl 60. When I began to get ogcds that I used often (rotational stuff, as opposed to major cds) I clearly saw that this was designed to fill in the gaps in the "slow" combat. However I do take into account that I have a hardcore raiding background so I would be more likely to understand this than a player who has been mostly casual. That being said I met a lot of casual players who immediately understood this and others with a hardcore raiding background did not until they were informed.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While they're obviously different games, the point of a comparison is not necessarily (and I would even say shouldn't be) about turning one game into the other. But there are parts of one game that you could wish to be in both games rather than just one, whether it be missing features or different implementations of the same features.

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And this is a huge reason why comparisons between both games are often made. They are distinct games with their own unique features, but many of the features they have are simply different interpretations of how said feature works as opposed to being entirely different.

Personally, World of Warcraft is one of the largest things in MMO market. There may be young enough people who missed out just how huge WoW was from it's launch to this day, it is important enough game that even YoshiP played it for research and probably just for fun in past. One of the most important aspects though is that if some random gamer has played an MMO, it is very likely WoW.

Because the world at one point had way more WoW players than ever could be though of - the first MMO to go over million players or so.

It is a huge game... Was... was before it was.... But, still a thing that is in especially MMO gamer consciousness, you are just asking us to not think about the pink elephant.
That said, I use my general knowledge to just help out past WoW players in XIV, it always helps when you can name closest things to things in another game. Not the SAME thing, closest analogues still exist enough and helps people to adjust their WoW knowledge into XIV. It is not much more comparing to me than saying what things from XI are in XIV and how they are different, etc.

This happens right now because in WoW community there is a large amount of players leaving the game and many finding XIV instead. And really... I do want their input in XIV. They come from a game that is possibly failing badly in current times and their woes would serve well in XIV community as things to possibly avoid lest future comes darker here as well. We could always build up together and debates over qualities of MMO games is part of course.
1.0 was born from a secluded Japanese team that had only made XI and left ignorant of (MMO) market.
2.0 was born by director who played and loved a lot of MMOs and taking his experience from MMO's into this project, where a lot of stuff was kept even, just restructured and refocused and expanded largely in ways that is based on taking note of the (MMO) market.
XIV is these days of course, probably the forerunner of the (MMO) market, but... As long as it is civil and not too over the top we even should compare MMO games, even with their differences.

This game is quite literally WOW-inspired...

Well, I mean they are similar in a lot of aspects, and they appeal to a similar audience. So naturally there will be some comparison and contrast. Also a certain creative director openly stated he was inspired by wow.

I've seen many of your posts and you're the one that compares the two most frequently...

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

I think we know which two and we all know where this thread is going. FF14 and WoW and this only comes up because I still check the WoW forums and they talk about us a lot over there.

Guess it is because FF14 has been releasing content during a MASSIVE lul in WoW.

1. FF14 is 7 years old and WoW is 15 years old. If you cannot look at one game in its 3rd expansion vs one in its 7th and understand why they work differently then you are lost.

2. Even remotely trying to compare class design in a game where you can swap between them all and another where you have to log off to play a different class then you are lost. Also YET AGAIN one game the character cap is 80 and the other is 120. Square Enix is well aware of the ability bloat which is why you see these class redesigns happening.

3. Just like in WoW's 3rd expansion the devs for FF14 tried to open the game to more casual players so they made tanking easier and thus caused boring healers. I cannot put into words how bored I was in Wrath barely even having to attempt dungeons designed around these new tanks that had some many defensive CD's.

Ever hear people complain about chain pulling? I used to pull Halls of Lightening from start to finish on my Paladin and take hardly any damage and WoW did not have these arbitrary doors to slow people down.

4. One MMO is designed solely for PC users while this one is designed to work on the PS4. Anyone looked at the specs on a PS4? You start to understand very quickly why some designed decisions. Maybe once this MMO starts solely supporting the PS5 which is vastly superior in 7.0 we will see major changes.

5. One MMO relies HEAVILY on RNG for gearing while FF14 is predictable and some call it boring who want to spice it up. Well Blizzard started to "spice it up" after their 3rd expansion and now it is a spicy pile of crap that makes some RNG loot box systems look fair. Go figure after their subs tanking they are reconsidering this approach.

6. One MMO has queues literally every single time I login and when I goto zones I never really feel alone. Could Square incentive going into the open world more...yeah got any suggestions then post them. Also no stupid arbitrary faction war that no longer makes any sense.

7. One game focuses on the story atleast ONCE from 1-80. Do not like and want to be a l33t pwnzers raider then fork over $17 for a story skip or rush through the game by hitting escape. Personally your life will be more empty as you will not understand why Thordan is so afraid of you....who this Zenos guy is...Why Emet turns into this big thing then cries in despair during the fight about being forgotten...

8. One game has gone through multiple game directors while the other has had CONSISTENT leadership and huge subscriber growth using this current formula.

TL'DR: Stop comparing the two. They are in extremely different development cycles in their lifetimes and use VERY different development philosophies.

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They won't.

"... AGAIN one game the character cap is 80 and the other is 120..."
It's 60 the level cap in WoW...

Oh well, ANOTHER NECRO THREAD.

Well said EaMett, made me LoL. Op is spamming non-stop about Wow and says stop doing that. LoL