Frustrating relative lack of LGBT NPCs in this game

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

How would an NPC be identified as LGBT? Special color, a big marker hanging over it's head? And what difference would it make when you're interacting with them to pick up or turn in a quest?

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The same way any of the multitide of NPCs that are identified as straight is. The obvious way being mentioning something like a wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, etc in passing or actually having that other npc also be in the game. For example, Chai-Nuzz and Dulai-Chai or a female quest npc asking the player to find their husband in the forest because he hasn't come home yet and she's worried. All that's needed is for the gender of the pairs be the same and voila.

Our hairstylist ain't enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Haruka_R

Our hairstylist ain't enough for you?

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Have you seen him? He has no style and I refuse to accept him. :p

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Have you seen him? He has no style and I refuse to accept him. :p

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Has no style? The man has his own theme music.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I have no issue with the LGBT community. :D

To bigots and trolls well...
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-U8OEfy95m...es_500-294.jpg

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Pretty much this. I'm all for them giving npcs flavor text "oh my husband sent me this, my wife that", things that already exist for straight couples and the few LGBT ones in the game already, though I haven't really noticed that many of either side.

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Originally Posted by Haruka_R

Has no style? The man has his own theme music.

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I don't know if style means getting dressed and doing your make-up in the dark just because you have theme music.

As an actual military vet. . .come on man. . .least use a different name when making troll post's like these.

There are a few gay people in the world, they just don't have the "Look at me I'm a gay character" trope attached, the characters are treated like they are just there as part of the world and imo that is the absolute best outcome because gay people aren't any different from everyone else nor is a trans person nor is a lesbian and so on and so on, we are all just people that just happen to have a different preference.

The number of people shown as LGBTQ+ is also low but that is reasonable because we are a minority.

Small list of npcs I found
-the couple for Wanderer's Palace HM, they were persecuted for being mixed race not for being same gender, this gives us a good idea that society does not care about sexual preference being the same gender, this type of view is further supported by Ishgard with Hume and Elezen affairs being the most scandalous of gossip.
-"Stupid Sexy Rodegyn" guy, a reference to us but he is attracted to that Roe in universe
-"Lower, Lower" Roe and dude scrubbing his back, again another reference to us but taken as in universe that Roe wants that man to give him a happy ending wink wink knudge knudge
-Budunga tribe(the green tribe with Magnai) they are an all male tribe, they take male children either by force or trade, stands to reason that there would be at least 1 or 2 tribe members liking their fellow tribe members they grew up with(all boy school situation, it is more likely to happen than a mixed school).
-Hingashi culture in general, male prostitutes who have no qualms with male clients, villain with obvious villain moustache in Hildabrand regularly sees males crossdressing.
-EB ceremonies don't discriminate ever, in universe just shows how accepting the staff for the church there is.
-Little Ladies Day 2018, the girl band group ask my male character was I waiting for my Senchestal implying they were thinking me as a princess, they didn't bat an eye at this so it is not unheard of a guy being pampered on Little Ladies Day, it is just not the norm.(sorta want a Little Ladies Day to actually go further along this route even if a side part of the event)
-The current Rising event NPC couple, I fully take them as a couple, others take them as friends, no one is wrong in thinking either, you never ask so they never tell sorta like real life relationships.

Representation for Representation sake usually leads to the character in question as a shallow puddle where their representation is all that matters I do not want that because I am sick of just being a token character in a story, we are people that have many different qualities that make us who we are.

TLDR: There is plenty of representation and just adding more for the sake of it would just be obnoxious

Also hi Titanmen running out of material or recycling it, I seem to remember an old version of this very thread a few years back, how long you been playing this waiting game.

I'm Trans and Pan.

I agree that the few characters who most likely are members of the LGBTQ+ family should come out to the fans in the western world, maybe not in China or Russia, but (insert rude comment about the homophobic laws of those nations)

There are a lot of hints that out of the scions several could be apart of our club. ie Alphinaud might be Bi and Trans, Urianger might be ace-demi with a bit of genderfluidity.

Also, the style and themes of the game are very LGBTQ+, so it's kind of hard not to think that the production staff has influential LGBTQ+ members leading the designs for gear and zones.

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Originally Posted by MPK

How do you know that? Are you just assuming every NPC is straight? Just because they're not flamboyant?

Edit: Emet Selch was probably 101% gay.

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Emet-Selch was technically Bi, he kind of hinted at that in one of his speeches when he says he lived as a mortal. But he was Bi like Freddy was... because well... yah, just remember as Emperor, he set up a theater troop, gave them an airship flying fortress, and told them to enjoy the world. No straight guy would ever do that.

Also besides his sass, and fashion, he actually drops a few hints in his dialog, in both the Japanese and English. Although the English track was a little gayer.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

So your sexuality makes your character and not the person?

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Sexuality is a major part of any persons character development. Take me for instance, I'm Trans and Pan, in the 90s as a 20+ GRaver doing drugs, doing Raves, having sex with lots of people, you could easily say my sexuality and my personality at that time were a linked commodity.

As noted above, Emet-Selch, just wouldn't have worked as a character if he wasn't played sassy and queer. Just like Elidibus wouldn't have worked if he wasn't so very hetero.

Sexuality is a major part of character development, and I'm sure they have pocket notes on character sexuality not seen by the player base, to help with character interactions, there are several very clearly gay couples in the game, but they never explicitly state this. Which is both good and bad, good because they have plausible denial if asked by China or Russia, or any Islamic country. But at the same time, they put in enough clues that we of the LGBTQ+ community can see them as apart of our family.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Is this just an another political tick box check request?

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Honestly, the OP is probably a troll bait poster, but the request is not a political tick box for this game. You realize Final Fantasy games in general, and Final Fantasy 14 especially are very popular with the queer community, and have been so for years, as many of the main characters are very clearly "coded queer".

I wouldn't be shocked if over 30% of the player base in this game was LGBTQ+.

Oh and, "Coded Queer" is an entertainment term, basically to get past sensors in the past the Film industry hide gay characters in plain sight, but never explicitly said they were. They would get the actor to play the character gay, whether or not they knew it. ie Ben Hur. Final Fantasy has always had a lot of coded queer characters. 14 has a ton of them BTW, Cid, Nero, Emet-Selch, Alphinaud, Alisaie, Urianger, and many others. This is compounded with flat out gay couples left and right, who go over and above the typical Queer Coding, where they are clearly a gay couple even if they don't say it out loud.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

I'm fine with a homosexual character but it has to be character first and sexuality later.

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This is the typical straight dismissive idea, you are fine when they force hetero couple in peoples faces, but get dismissive when people want gay ones. The MMO I used to play did this all the time, and it infuriates me they are going that path with a Queer coded main character. I stopped watching the Expanse in the second season when they had two queer coded characters have heterosexual sex, it just annoyed the hell out of me, yet straight people didn't even notice nor care that it was wrong.

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Originally Posted by MilitaryVet123

Which makes it very curious why people are so mad at me asking for more representation. Surely it cannot be the rampant homophobia in this community...

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There has been an influx of players coming from a very anti-LGBT gaming community. They use to play that popular MMO from Irvine California, the one that allowed a very toxic community to thrive. The reality is Square has always been very pro-LGBTQ+, but the World isn't quite ready for all their Gay, Bi, and Trans characters to come out of the closet.

In fact, Japanese Video Game productions have always had tons of LGBTQ+ characters, sadly they use to use the term "New Type" which was a slang term for a Trans woman. Several main characters in early games were "New Type".

LGBTQ+ and Japanese games have gone hand in hand since the 80s. Final Fantasy being especially stand out in this.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

...not to mention the championing of unconventional gender roles in the pixies and dwarves.

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Glad you mentioned that, since the Pixies, for the most part, are expressed in a Non-Binary (aka NB/Enby) sort of way. I love that you can use any pronouns with them, and the Pixies use both for themselves in both English and Japanese, so it is clear that the game devs wanted them to be NB.

The Dwarves are following the trope of Dwarven Females have beards, in the silliest way possible. It's just clothing. Also as someone whose mained a Lalafell, I love that most of the Random Dwarves are using Female Lala's. It's hard to tell, but a trained eye can spot it.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Also, the style and themes of the game are very LGBTQ+, so it's kind of hard not to think that the production staff has influential LGBTQ+ members leading the designs for gear and zones.

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I'm not sure I'm seeing the same thing you're seeing. Other than the examples mentioned by the poster above you in this thread, there isn't much else going on other than prostitutes or flirty background NPCs trying to sleep with your character regardless of your gender and there's a lot more examples of aggressively hetero interactions between NPCs. Unfortunately, the country the game is made in is not very progressive and doesn't allow same-sex marriage. We didn't even get in-game same-sex marriage when eternal bonding was first released and we had to constantly ask for that along with gender-unlocked outfits. The director of the game has even said that male viera make him uncomfortable.

They've included some better examples of same-sex romance that don't use tired, negative tropes than I would have expected. But considering past comments from the director and the design team on other things, I don't think the examples you used were explicitly designed to be that way and you might be seeing more into things than what's really there.

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Originally Posted by MilitaryVet123

Yeah, but he's WOL-sexual, which means if you play a female character he's no longer LGBT (because in your universe, you were always female).

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What is this even supposed to mean?

Personally I'd prefer LGBTQ+ representation do be done without highlighting too much about this because that can end up feeling gimmicky. If a character's primary trait is their gender or sexuality it can come off as little more than hollow virtue signaling. When everything else about the character is an afterthought (being good at combat, science, etc) it's not good representation. Everyone is multi-faceted, so every character should be presented this way regardless of gender and sexuality.

Also we are not explicitly told that every character we meet is cis and straight, so we can't assume this is absolutely the case for every npc we have met.

That being said it would be nice if it was more obvious if some characters are intended to be LGBTQ+. I just don't want it to be done in a way in which it's obvious SE is screaming "LOOK LOOK, THIS CHARACTER IS GAY, LOOK AT HIM" I'd prefer it to be shown as simply one of many things that make up the character.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

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TLDR: There is plenty of representation and just adding more for the sake of it would just be obnoxious

Also hi Titanmen running out of material or recycling it, I seem to remember an old version of this very thread a few years back, how long you been playing this waiting game.

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great list, there's more, but I think the funniest bit is Alphinaud, there are several times NPCs refer to him as a girl, and there is a constant evolution of his masculinity. Almost as if he's a Trans man, and started his transition just prior to our officially meeting him. Also, they are referred to as identical twins at least once.

There's very little in the ways of romance at all, and none of which involves our own characters since it is not that sort of game. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know, but I can't say I recall too many relationships beyond the prominent miqo'te couple in Eulmore being of any importance at all. Almost every major character in the game is single- and as the game is linear without choices they aren't going to force the WoL into a relationship since I'm sure most people would have a different opinion on whom the WoL would be in a relationship with. Frankly I think since the WoL is an extension of ourselves, of all the orientations to be concerned about that's the one- and afaik there's no marriage restrictions, so seems they have no problem with us choosing our character's orientation.

They have however left a great deal of their characters with unknown orientation- which is perhaps the best way of doing it because straight people can assume they're all straight, and LGBT can assume they're not, giving both a large selection of people who conform to their ideals.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I'm not sure I'm seeing the same thing you're seeing. Other than the examples mentioned by the poster above you in this thread, there isn't much else going on other than prostitutes or flirty background NPCs trying to sleep with your character regardless of your gender and there's a lot more examples of aggressively hetero interactions between NPCs. Unfortunately, the country the game is made in is not very progressive and doesn't allow same-sex marriage. We didn't even get in-game same-sex marriage when eternal bonding was first released and we had to constantly ask for that along with gender-unlocked outfits. The director of the game has even said that male viera make him uncomfortable.

They've included some better examples of same-sex romance that don't use tired, negative tropes than I would have expected. But considering past comments from the director and the design team on other things, I don't think the examples you used were explicitly designed to be that way and you might be seeing more into things than what's really there.

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This is incorrect, the eternal bond was always same-sex available.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I'm not sure I'm seeing the same thing you're seeing. Other than the examples mentioned by the poster above you in this thread, there isn't much else going on other than prostitutes or flirty background NPCs trying to sleep with your character regardless of your gender and there's a lot more examples of aggressively hetero interactions between NPCs. Unfortunately, the country the game is made in is not very progressive and doesn't allow same-sex marriage. We didn't even get in-game same-sex marriage when eternal bonding was first released and we had to constantly ask for that along with gender-unlocked outfits. The director of the game has even said that male viera make him uncomfortable.

They've included some better examples of same-sex romance that don't use tired, negative tropes than I would have expected. But considering past comments from the director and the design team on other things, I don't think the examples you used were explicitly designed to be that way and you might be seeing more into things than what's really there.

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Il Mheg, and the Pixies are great examples. The zone is filled with queer tropes. Pixies are shown to be non-binary. There are rainbows, pink hues, and tons of queer visuals.

But let's look at Urianger. His old robes are classic mage type robes and give away nothing about his sexuality,
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...NPC_Render.jpg
he is shown as just a nerd, with a strong emotional attachment to Moenbryda, in Shadowbringer, he changes his look significantly, and to a very genderfluid and queer look. His robes no longer look like a mage's robes, but instead a fairly sexy black silk dress, decorated in a magical way.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi..._FFXIV_5.0.png

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Il Mheg, and the Pixies are great examples. The zone is filled with queer tropes. Pixies are shown to be non-binary. There are rainbows, pink hues, and tons of queer visuals.

But let's look at Urianger. His old robes are classic mage type robes and give away nothing about his sexuality,
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...NPC_Render.jpg
he is shown as just a nerd, with a strong emotional attachment to Moenbryda, in Shadowbringer, he changes his look significantly, and to a very genderfluid and queer look. His robes no longer look like a mage's robes, but instead a fairly sexy black silk dress, decorated in a magical way.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi..._FFXIV_5.0.png

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I think you are doing some reaching with your examples. He's just wearing robes that have no sleeves. It's still a robe. That does not look gender fluid (whatever that would look like anyway) or queer at all.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

great list, there's more, but I think the funniest bit is Alphinaud, there are several times NPCs refer to him as a girl, and there is a constant evolution of his masculinity. Almost as if he's a Trans man, and started his transition just prior to our officially meeting him. Also, they are referred to as identical twins at least once.

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I'd like to point out that eorzea probably doesnt have a very good understanding on genetics, and likely refer to them as identical due to appearance. One egg can produce 2 children of different genders, and while not genetically identical because sex, the rest may be.

Also, Krile has known him for ages, and mentions teasing him a lot. I don't think she's ever mentioned him changing the way he dresses though.

This just seems like more reaching.

Radley's second law: All characters are pansexual unless explicitly stated otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

This is incorrect, the eternal bond was always same-sex available.

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I re-looked it up since I thought I remember it being a thing, and Yoshi-P had said in a live letter that there would be no same-sex marriage in-game at first, and then later changed his mind and it was released with same-sex marriage.

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As for same-sex marriage, this is an extremely controversial topic that has been under discussion in the MMO world for the past few years. First we would like to start out with opposite-sex marriage, and then consider the feedback from our players in order to make a careful decision. I can't say whether or not it will be possible at this point in time. I'd like to keep dialog open with our players as we deliberate the matter.

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Back when I played FFXI, they did not support same-sex marriage. I don't know if it's changed since then.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I think you are doing some reaching with your examples. He's just wearing robes that have no sleeves. It's still a robe. That does not look gender fluid (whatever that would look like anyway) or queer at all.




I'd like to point out that eorzea probably doesnt have a very good understanding on genetics, and likely refer to them as identical due to appearance. One egg can produce 2 children of different genders, and while not genetically identical because sex, the rest may be.

Also, Krile has known him for ages, and mentions teasing him a lot. I don't think she's ever mentioned him changing the way he dresses though.

This just seems like more reaching.

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For someone who is genderfluid, gender is a suggestion, not a fixed point. It's a very queer and lovely state of being, and something the Japanese do often. All you need to do is look up Tokyo Fashion and look at street pictures to see tons of Genderfluid people. The 5.0 Urianger is a classic example of this, but for a real example, I give you Billy Porter's tuxedo dress.

https://i.imgur.com/ZcQ87OI.jpg


or From Tokyo Fashion
https://tokyofashion.com/dark-tokyo-...ffle-umbrella/
https://tokyofashion.com/harajuku-fa...-body-harness/
https://tokyofashion.com/harajuku-me...chelsea-boots/

Japan has always been a bit Genderfluid, especially in Manga, Anime, and Video Games. The Final Fantasy series is no exception.


in reply to your edit: I too will stealth in an edit:

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I'd like to point out that eorzea probably doesnt have a very good understanding on genetics, and likely refer to them as identical due to appearance. One egg can produce 2 children of different genders, and while not genetically identical because sex, the rest may be.

Also, Krile has known him for ages, and mentions teasing him a lot. I don't think she's ever mentioned him changing the way he dresses though.

This just seems like more reaching.

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Eorzea is not technologically backward, and their understanding of science and medicine is probably far in advanced of reality, but the Developers exist in our world and know the difference between

双子
Futago

and

卵性双生児
Ichiranseisōseiji

they used both in the Japanese dialogue to describe them.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

NPCs in the game don't need a giant banner saying whether they are LGBT. I am not quite sure why people these days obsess over a sexual orientation that has next to nothing to do with the game. The game isn't a pride event, nor are they obligated to represent a minority. The vast majority of NPCs the WoL interacts with are neutral considering the WoL can be male or female. Very few characters are like Thancred, whose orientation is very clear. Just let your imagination run wild.

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This sums up this thread very well.

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Originally Posted by usernameuwu

sigh
,basically what gemina said.
i just dont understand why lgbt people feel like they need to be represented /eveywhere/ or they feel as if they dont exist. this debate came up on another mmo forum i played. its just a fantasy world in general, so i dont know what people are expecting.

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Because being marginalized, is a crappy thing to feel. When I see people like you saying crap like this, I'm reminded how it was still illegal to have gay sex in many parts of the US until 2003. I am reminded daily as a Transgender person, that I'm a second class citizen, even though I live in a supposed liberal State.

Asking for representation is asking for people to help us achieve basic equality. Nothing more. I want the same rights and protections everyone else has, sadly here in the US, and the Majority of the world we don't have it. And in some parts, we can be killed for who we are.

When was the last time a Heterosexual Cisgender person was executed for being straight? When was the last time a doctor denied your treatment because of your cisgender status? Me, I was denied surgery last December for being Transgender from the Veterans Hospital here in Los Angeles California.

Why do we want acknowledgment, because of this sh** we have to face daily.

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oh and the VA got away with it because of that Hate-Monger who stole the White House on Russian money.

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Originally Posted by KayRadley

Radley's second law: All characters are pansexual unless explicitly stated otherwise.

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I like this. its how I imagine most guys, normal until they prove otherwise. besides, if you are sending me off to my death or trying to kill me, I dont care how you identify, its meaningless. Although if Hilda decided to come out, I am moving to Ishgard ^^

Representation is generally a good thing, and shouldn't be such a hot button issue. But the lack of prominent LGBT characters also shouldn't be taken as that community being "Unwanted" or anything as well, especially considering 2019 Mardi Gras. (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/blog/002680.html for those curious.)

At the end of the day though, FF really doesn't delve too hard into characters romantic interests often, and when they do it's normally played up just for laughs like with the warrior quests and little sun.

People always fall for this guys bait posts I swear, I can just imagine him giggling, posting the thread to his discord buds. Check his history and stop getting baited.

For the thread (in general, obviously OP made a real hit of a bait thread lol), I think SE has done a wonderful job making things exist but not matter (no character felt like a flag for the sake of a flag, getting that sweet virtue points- especially tired of companies that do that since they all seem to stick their head 9000 yalms into the ground when it comes to China, and just bash / parade the easy and profitable things). I hope they continue this. That doesn't mean a main character can't be a certain way (I'm aware it can sound like "so long as it's in the background and so subtle it doesn't exist"), but that they are treated as if it 'doesn't matter' and not treat treated like some award ceremony speech. It comes about naturally, it's not vegan cross fit trainer meme, and we all move on with our day because, I thought, we want to live in the world where this stuff doesn't have importance to our judgements on each other.

Noting as well this is not the real world where you might get protested or something, the game world needs to act like it exists as it does within the game world and not like a weird limbo between (unless they set the game word up to parallel our own, but I need to see some more crazy people on the streets then), so particularly further just 'doesn't matter' for Eorzea.

FFXIV showing how it should exist, I like that. Hope they keep up with that attitude.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Sexuality is a major part of any persons character development. Take me for instance, I'm Trans and Pan, in the 90s as a 20+ GRaver doing drugs, doing Raves, having sex with lots of people, you could easily say my sexuality and my personality at that time were a linked commodity.

As noted above, Emet-Selch, just wouldn't have worked as a character if he wasn't played sassy and queer. Just like Elidibus wouldn't have worked if he wasn't so very hetero.

Sexuality is a major part of character development, and I'm sure they have pocket notes on character sexuality not seen by the player base, to help with character interactions, there are several very clearly gay couples in the game, but they never explicitly state this. Which is both good and bad, good because they have plausible denial if asked by China or Russia, or any Islamic country. But at the same time, they put in enough clues that we of the LGBTQ+ community can see them as apart of our family.

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Eh . .

I don't think Emet has to be bi or whatever to be Emet. I feel like we're going backwards here where sexuality isn't supposed to define who you are. If you're a certain way because of your sexuality then it seems reasonable to say certain sexuality may or may not be better at certain things, like not "well sure I guess but it shouldn't matter" but like actually just better. "He couldn't have been that way if it wasn't for being queer". Because if we're saying you can't make Emet without him being Bi (or whatever) and that it's an important feature to him being him, then many things begin to reason from that which I think people do not want to give birth to.

As far as I'm concerned Emet was nothing sexual, maybe he gave off hints to you, but regardless he could have been anything or nothing. Being catty doesn't require you to be queer.. or whatever else. Plenty of catty heterosexual people. Also our boy edi isn't hetro, the dude is an embodiment of an idea. He's not going around and being like 'Shiva, you fyneee'. He exists for one reason and one reason alone.

Either there are defining traits to sexuality that allows one to create realistic, fair, and accurate judgments, or there are not- similarly said to the topic of gender. Like one might suggest a difference but not enough for it to be a thing we should let matter into preventing someone from doing something- like you might say strength but if someone passes the test, one used because a job demands it and not to artificially filter people out, then who cares what they've got, passed the test lets keep this train moving people.

Can't be like it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, we're all the same, on one issue and then make it a defining characteristic that makes them them and it totally matters when it's helpful to the argument.

Especially as this isn't the real world and so you can't even argue the same sort of struggles that may have had ripples through someone's life, Eorzea doesn't have the same hang ups the real world can have- so many real world arguments of "well it shouldn't have but look this event when I was a kid really impacted me".

I like the way FFXIV, and media like it, deals with this stuff. It's not important (in so much it 'makes them' and they couldn't be 'them' without it), but it does exist. I know sometimes in life you don't get the luxury of acting this way but I greatly prefer people act the way they want the world to be as I feel it's wonderful way to lead and be proof of concept. Sometimes so subtly because it's none of your business type of deal. For example the only time I've announced my sexuality was when it was in direct question, never have I ever just announced the way I am without being requested to. This shouldn't be like a vegan crossfit meme. Even someone might confuse two same couples because they were close, or good opposite friends, some skinship or whatever, even if someone is in contact with another or even flirtatious doesn't actually mean anything for proof (though may lead to guesses).

It's a thing, but it generally doesn't matter (might pick your life partner based off it, so you can be happy physically as well as mentally, but you'll not hire, fire, befriend, or generally coexist with anyone differently because of it). Or it's a thing, and it generally matters.

I am concerned on the concept that it matters to the point that a person couldn't be said person without it- it leads, with logical reasons, to other less savory judgements being valid (as if it matters then it matters even when you don't want it to, don't get to make and eat your cake like that in this world where everyone is a chef in the kitchen).

As I thought people were sick of being put into boxes they didn't want to be in just because of silly things like wanting to wear a certain cloth or partner with certain set of tools. Yet what I feel like I read quite often, is rules for me when they're convenient and rules for thee when they help me but I'm not going to follow any sort of consistent rules if they become inconvenient. Either this stuff is a defining trait that shapes your core, which has significant repercussions, or it's not and people are ruining other people's lives because of a hang up that is a waste of time. There are opportunities where it could define a single person, due to some special circumstance (anything from trauma to 'this is how I make my money'), but to argue that is a general truth . .. "eh..." lol.

Ultimately I would much rather say your personality determined how you displayed your sexuality, rather than the opposite. Such that a boisterous hetro or calm hetro are clearly different in relationships, just like you might say about a gay person (some people dress alluringly and flirt others don't, the sexual orientation had little matter on this). Not that being gay informed their personality (excluding perhaps some direct trauma, we're talking more ideal world, since this is a fantasy game, as well not everyone responds to trauma the same or at all just because it exists). Which goes back to Emet doesn't need to have a specific sexuality to be Emet.

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Originally Posted by Shinklet

People always fall for this guys bait posts I swear, I can just imagine him giggling, posting the thread to his discord buds. Check his history and stop getting baited.

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He might be a trollolo type, but this subject isn't a bad one to discuss, especially with the amount of Hetcis hate posts here.

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Originally Posted by kelevra13

I love how the reddit post mentions the Azim Steppe when the Dotharl, as mentioned by Enla, can be found there. XD

That's the goal of this post. OP mentions that they're LGBT POC so that when people point out that they're a troll, there will be others defending the OP, and the OP can just default that the community is toxic/hateful. I was baited by one of the OP's other thread where they ignore all proper solutions and focus on the replies that agree with them. RagingStallion's threads were more obviously trolly. This one can probably start a hate war if it gets out of hand.

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The troll level is pretty impressive honestly. Kind of admire it.

On the subject we do not really know the backstories of multiple different "main characters" sex lives. Thancred is obviously straight and rest are a guess. I mean Shiva was into dragons so I guess that community is represented!?!?!?

OH OHHHH OHHHH Viera!! Literally an entire race of females isolated in the woods that reproduce somehow!! Aren't Rothgar all males?!?!? There you go.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

You know this borders on a supremacist talking point? .

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It doesn't, and it's been proven scientifically that Gay Males are better at expressing and reading emotion than Heterosexual Males, which gives them a clear advantage in certain professions, such as acting, and the arts. This isn't considered Supremacist, as plenty of Heterosexual men have done well in the Arts, including Acting. The slight advantage Gay men have is slight and not a significant advantage. Human variation in the world shows that some groups have natural advantages do to specific traits in certain industries, this is just an example of evolution and what makes each group unique and valuable.

Think OMG gay men are more in touch with their emotions means straight men are somehow disadvantaged is stupid. It just means that straight men who want to understand emotions better have to work a little harder to be just as good at it as gay men, and plenty of straight men go the extra mile to understand emotions, mostly so they can relate to the women in their lives, but they can an do.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

It doesn't, and it's been proven scientifically that Gay Males are better at expressing and reading emotion than Heterosexual Males, which gives them a clear advantage in certain professions, such as acting, and the arts. This isn't considered Supremacist, as plenty of Heterosexual men have done well in the Arts, including Acting. The slight advantage Gay men have is slight and not a significant advantage. Human variation in the world shows that some groups have natural advantages do to specific traits in certain industries, this is just an example of evolution and what makes each group unique and valuable.

Think OMG gay men are more in touch with their emotions means straight men are somehow disadvantaged is stupid. It just means that straight men who want to understand emotions better have to work a little harder to be just as good at it as gay men, and plenty of straight men go the extra mile to understand emotions, mostly so they can relate to the women in their lives, but they can an do.

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I don't know who did the "scientific proving" but there may be a danger in assuming that the reason they are better at those things is directly because they are gay.

There is perhaps a correlation between "men who are in touch with their emotions" and "men who identify as gay", and the advantage is not given by being gay but by being in touch with their emotions. Therefore if you compare gay vs straight then a larger proportion of in-touch-with-emotions people are going to be in the gay group, skewing the results to appear that it has an advantage over straight, when actually a sensitive person is going to perform well regardless of their orientation.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

It doesn't, and it's been proven scientifically that Gay Males are better at expressing and reading emotion than Heterosexual Males, which gives them a clear advantage in certain professions, such as acting, and the arts. This isn't considered Supremacist, as plenty of Heterosexual men have done well in the Arts, including Acting. The slight advantage Gay men have is slight and not a significant advantage. Human variation in the world shows that some groups have natural advantages do to specific traits in certain industries, this is just an example of evolution and what makes each group unique and valuable.

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You are bordering on a surpemacist argument because you are collectivizing and stereotyping by an immutable trait. "X" group is better/superior at "Y" through causation. Iscah has a big right of it, conflating causation with correlation is a problem.

And even when you do this, you back peddle a bit by undercutting your initial point by saying that "It is slight and not a significant advantage". Which seems to indicate that either the data itself is inconclusive due to lack of sample size or some other factor, its correlation and not causation, or that the advantage isnt even worth mentioning because it has no statistical importance or bearing on any discussion. This brings up the obvious question of "If its not important or so statistically small to be irrelevant, why even bring it up and phrase in the manner you did? Why does it even matter in this discussion?"

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Think OMG gay men are more in touch with their emotions means straight men are somehow disadvantaged is stupid. It just means that straight men who want to understand emotions better have to work a little harder to be just as good at it as gay men, and plenty of straight men go the extra mile to understand emotions, mostly so they can relate to the women in their lives, but they can an do.

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Then why are you even bringing this up if its case by case. Furthermore, this is literally the "Gay men are more emotional" Trope. You are talking again in terms of collectivism about very subjective concepts and phrasing it (at best) poorly.

Lets take this and apply it to the discussion: Are gay men not being accurately depicted then if the gay character in the game is more emotionally closed off?

Yeah I would like to see some more queer representation in FFXIV. I actually feel rather satisfied with regards to gender identity, so I would like some same sex romance happening in an important story. I hope Eden isn't queer bait!

I'm aware this is a troll thread but I'll post this anyway. Honest question(s) here: Do minorities need to be represented in every possible medium and work for them to feel validated? Even works that aren't remotely about them and/or their struggles? Isn't feeling validated something that stems from within? I understand they want to be accepted by society for who they are, but is this the way to achieve that? Will being included in every possible medium really change people's opinions or win their acceptance?

This is a game. A fantasy game where no one gives a damn about sexuality as it literally plays 0 role is the story. Who cares if a character is hetero, gay, bi, etc.? This is not what matters in this game or what defines the characters. Everything is about the story. Let's not shoehorn something that's not important to this particular game's story into it. If it happens naturally or plays a role in it, I'm all for it. After all, my headcanon is that 2 certain characters in the bard's later questline have a thing for each other :P But otherwise, don't include it just for the sake of including it. I see a lot of shows "include" or "represent" minorities, but a lot of the time, it feels like they only do it to appeal to a certain audience and that's literally it. Like others said: a checkbox to tick. No noble or grand purpose behind it. I'd rather the characters have more going for them than being token characters.

And what's this about Emet being queer or bi or whatever? Now we're reaching a bit. When I played the game, I didn't get this from him at all. He was just eccentric. That's the only way I can describe him. That's a trait that anyone can have. It's not exclusive to one group or another. Again, let's look at the game for what it is and is about. A fantasy story. One that's certainly not about sexuality.

As for gay or bi people being better at certain things than hetero folks, I'd say this is not related to their sexuality. Some people are better at certain things than others. That's just how it is. It has absolutely nothing to do with their sexual orientation. I'm sorry, but I've never heard something this absurd before. Like, what's the science or logic behind it?
Edit: Even after reading the explanation, I still find it nonsense.

Ryne and Gaia are both underage, so hopefully it turns out that they're just good friends...which is exactly how I read things between them during the Eden quests.

If we do happen to get a gay romance between two fairly important characters in the future? Great! Hopefully we do and it'll be handled tastefully. Let's just stick to shipping adult characters, though.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

yah, just remember as Emperor, he set up a theater troop, gave them an airship flying fortress, and told them to enjoy the world. No straight guy would ever do that.

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Hope this is sarcasm otherwise...
TIL straight people can't be eccentric or passionate about the arts.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

It doesn't, and it's been proven scientifically that Gay Males are better at expressing and reading emotion than Heterosexual Males, which gives them a clear advantage in certain professions, such as acting, and the arts. This isn't considered Supremacist, as plenty of Heterosexual men have done well in the Arts, including Acting. The slight advantage Gay men have is slight and not a significant advantage. Human variation in the world shows that some groups have natural advantages do to specific traits in certain industries, this is just an example of evolution and what makes each group unique and valuable.

Think OMG gay men are more in touch with their emotions means straight men are somehow disadvantaged is stupid. It just means that straight men who want to understand emotions better have to work a little harder to be just as good at it as gay men, and plenty of straight men go the extra mile to understand emotions, mostly so they can relate to the women in their lives, but they can an do.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2K5...oCLS/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Yeah I would like to see some more queer representation in FFXIV. I actually feel rather satisfied with regards to gender identity, so I would like some same sex romance happening in an important story. I hope Eden isn't queer bait!

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There's barely any straight representation either in FFXIV. Do we have to shove more romance into this game so straight people can feel more represented and comfortable?