Mentors and Novice Network

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Originally Posted by Cyreil

Novice Network is currently just a discount global chat and is exactly what an actual global chat would become if one ever does become implemented.

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A discount global chat where you can get kicked for having the wrong opinion, or chatting out of turn.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Today I was in the novice network and one of the lovely regular posters there decided to tell us all about the end of Shadowbringers. Which kinda puts a dampener on the whole rest of the game for me.

The mentors in the network said not to spoil but the guy was not kicked. When a novice complained they were kicked for spoiling the mood.

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Wow that was a really scummy thing to do.

The Novice Network is a lovely idea but it doesn't work well because the community can't be trusted to police themselves.

I’m not too sure it was malicious, just the mentors using it as a second free company instead of a chat to help new players. It’s a shame though, kinda ruins it for me.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

I’m not too sure it was malicious, just the mentors using it as a second free company instead of a chat to help new players. It’s a shame though, kinda ruins it for me.

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It's the Novice Network. Mentors know that there are new players who wouldn't be as far in the story as they are. The channel literally exists for the sole purpose of helping new players. There is no excuse for spoiling the story in that channel, aside from maybe accidentally typing into the wrong channel. And reading what you said about it, it appears that this isn't what happened. That they chose to kick a new player who complained about the spoilers just shows how little they care about sprouts.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

I don't get this assumption that mentors are supposed to be the best of the best, infallible and never be the ones to ask questions. That's just as hyperbolic as a blanket claim that mentors are all worthless and toxic. In any game I've ever played, the mentor system is designed around mentors just being players with a basic working knowledge of the game and beng willing to help out other players. As a result you're going to get mentors running the gamut from people with extensive knowledge of the game to those with a more social "welcome to the game! lets have fun and learn stuff together!" type. All are equally valid and welcome.

I aslo don't get the assumption that novice network is supposed to only be used only for answering direct questions from novices. It's definitely a major purpose of it, sure, but there's also nothing wrong on its own with people chatting in the novice network. If anything, this makes the game seem more active for a truly new player who is probably spending a lot of time in older zones with less people physically around them. Mentors are also just players, so they're going to interact just as any player would both positively and negatively (e.g. spoiling the story or trolling.) There are tools for dealing with the negative player interactions within the novice network just like for those outside of it. E.g. you can mute the novice network temporarily, leave the network entirely, report misuse of the novice network kick if you feel it was unwarranted, etc.

Side note: The OP made it seem like sprouts automatically get put into the novice network without a choice. Did that change recently? It used to be that you had to be invited by a mentor and accept the invitation to gain access, presumably to avoid it from turning into a RMT chat network.

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You’re right about the automatic thing, I forgot about the invite. But most new people aren’t going to say no.

Also sorry but disagree on the rest of it. There are lots of avenues for you to chat. The novice network is to help novices and honestly would be better without mentors in general. Often it’s returners and novices who are the most helpful people, interrupting the mentors chat about ilvl and computer specs in my experience.

It doesn't help that the requirements to become a trade mentor are fairly lax, to the point where quite a few players openly flaunt the fact that they become a trade mentor solely to continue chatting with their friends in the Novice Network.

Policing the actual channel is pretty difficult, too. If a mentor were to attempt to clean the place up by kicking someone who constantly turns the place into a glorified chat channel rather than a place to seek advice, they'd just be removed themselves.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

The novice network is to help novices and honestly would be better without mentors in general. Often it’s returners and novices who are the most helpful people, interrupting the mentors chat about ilvl and computer specs in my experience.

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How long have you been in the Cerberus NN? Because thats just not true...

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Originally Posted by Laphael

How long have you been in the Cerberus NN? Because thats just not true...

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You are saying the NN is not full of talk like this? I’m sorry if you’re part of the clique there but it’s absolutely true.

Just last night a “mentor” was saying how he got mentor so he can chat in novice network and get ppl to run dungeons with him and laughed about helping people.

Better name for Cerberus novice network would be ‘veterans chat’.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

You are saying the NN is not full of talk like this? I’m sorry if you’re part of the clique there but it’s absolutely true.

Just last night a “mentor” was saying how he got mentor so he can chat in novice network and get ppl to run dungeons with him and laughed about helping people.

Better name for Cerberus novice network would be ‘veterans chat’.

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I´m not, i´m usually silent and only answer direkt questions.
Sprouts as well as Returners talk as much as Mentors in that chat. Yes, there is some chitchat sometimes, but you make it far worse as it is.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

I´m not, i´m usually silent and only answer direkt questions.
Sprouts as well as Returners talk as much as Mentors in that chat. Yes, there is some chitchat sometimes, but you make it far worse as it is.

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Last hour has been mentor whining about being forced to do hildibrans quest,
mentors talking about overwatch, mentors talking about glamour. Two questions/comments from novices have been ignored.

At least they aren’t complaining about a sprout scholar not using exog like they were earlier I guess.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Last hour has been mentor whining about being forced to do hildibrans quest,
mentors talking about overwatch, mentors talking about glamour. Two questions/comments from novices have been ignored.

At least they aren’t complaining about a sprout scholar not using exog like they were earlier I guess.

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Yeah, you are just ignoring all the sprouts. Its ok.
Just in case you don´t know. You can leave the NN.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

Just in case you don´t know. You can leave the NN.

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But don’t you see? This proves my point. I say the system is broken and it’s not a nice or helpful chat and only serves the egos of the people in there.

The answer you give me? Leave.

Leave doesn’t fix the problem, it just lets you stay in an echo chamber where you all tell yourselves how kind and helpful you are, while the people that need help leave because you really are not so.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

But don’t you see? This proves my point. I say the system is broken and it’s not a nice or helpful chat and only serves the egos of the people in there.

The answer you give me? Leave.

Leave doesn’t fix the problem, it just lets you stay in an echo chamber where you all tell yourselves how kind and helpful you are, while the people that need help leave because you really are not so.

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You had a bad experience with spoiler, thats bad. I told you to report the person.

But NN is a world chat and if that bothers you so much, you CAN leave.

Sprouts do get help there all the time. The System is not broken just because you say it, thats the point.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

You had a bad experience with spoiler, thats bad. I told you to report the person.

But NN is a world chat and if that bothers you so much, you CAN leave.

Sprouts do get help there all the time. The System is not broken just because you say it, thats the point.

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NN is not a world chat. It’s a small network for helping new players to the game. If it was a world chat it wouldn’t be so limited.

And I’m not the only one who thinks it’s a bad system. Sorry you disagree but my point is not invalid because you personally like the chat.

You do know that argument is just as meaningless as your claim that their point is invalid because you personally don't like the chat.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

You do know that argument is just as meaningless as your claim that their point is invalid because you personally don't like the chat.

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But it’s not though. I’ve pointed out that the chat is full of spam. That they kick people who disrupt their cliquey chat but won’t kick their friends who spoil the game for others. These are facts. NN today has literally been mentors talking about bad players and ‘casuals’ for the most part. Not the best welcome to the game. These are facts.

He just likes the chat and says I can leave if I don’t like it. That doesn’t fix any of the problems above. Sure I can leave but it’s still a terrible system for helping new players.

One thing I will say is - don't claim all NN's are bad/terrible just because you've had a bad experience on 1 server's NN. Yes there are some server's who are known for having terrible NN's, but there also server's who are known for having a generally good/decent NN.

Adamantoise's NN is generally fairly decent. People ask questions and get helpful/useful answer's virtually all the time. Yes it is used as a chat channel for ppl on it, yet when I've been on I've nearly always seen them stop chatting once a question is asked... they answer it, then go back to chatting when nothing else asked. Is it perfect? Nope.

Unfortunately there are a few bad apples who seem determined to troll and spoil the game for new players who join the NN - such as doing what was done to the OP by spoiling what happens in Shadowbringers. Or they get argumentative and rude about the help offered by other mentor's, or the reason's other mentor's are there. These ppl do get kicked from the NN when they start doing this nonsense... but sadly they can just keep coming back after the 3-hour timeout expires.

But is the few bad apples really a reason to ditch the whole system? *shrugs* IMO nope, but to fix things SE would need to actually spend some time dealing with reports of shitty NN behaviour and taking action... and ensuring known trolls/pest's are unable to re-join the NN on any character on their account. Will this ever happen? Doubtful.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

But it’s not though. I’ve pointed out that the chat is full of spam. That they kick people who disrupt their cliquey chat but won’t kick their friends who spoil the game for others. These are facts. NN today has literally been mentors talking about bad players and ‘casuals’ for the most part. Not the best welcome to the game. These are facts.

He just likes the chat and says I can leave if I don’t like it. That doesn’t fix any of the problems above. Sure I can leave but it’s still a terrible system for helping new players.

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You're saying that it needs to be fixed. It doesn't just because you think it does. Your personal anecdote and belief that the chat should not be used outside of answering direct questions is invalid.

I've been in the Balmung NN for a bit now and my experiences line up more with Kamatsu and Mhaeric than with OP. There is a lot of social chatting, but when sprouts, returners, or even other mentors ask questions or for help, they get it. I've seen people join dungeon runs, help someone craft something, go to a location and post a <pos> in the chat to help out the sprouts, and much more.

There has been some disruptive players, but most of them were actually sprouts. We kicked one multiple times for cussing in chat and calling other players idiots. I ended up just blacklisting that player.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

But NN is a world chat and if that bothers you so much, you CAN leave.

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NN is not a world chat. It has a purpose and context. Don’t misuse it.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

You had a bad experience with spoiler, thats bad. I told you to report the person.

But NN is a world chat and if that bothers you so much, you CAN leave.

Sprouts do get help there all the time. The System is not broken just because you say it, thats the point.

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This is the kind of response that lends credence to the belief that NN is what the mentors want it to be, not what it should be. With no overseeing leash and with a material reward attached to the system, mentors are free to do as they please. Sure, you can report the person responsible for the fracas, maybe even two. But what are you gonna do about a group who hasn't committed any infractions but will nonetheless band together to kick people they don't like? Nothing, especially if they decide to slather their kick with a report of their own, claiming you're the disruptive one?

The system works in japan because the mentorship is something they take as a collective with some degree of respect for themselves and the sprouts they interact with. Here in NA/EU, the bad apples do enough damage to see this whole thing either scrapped or reworked with mods checking in once in a while to see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

NN is not a world chat. It has a purpose and context. Don’t misuse it.

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First of all, i don´t like the chitchat in NN, as i said i´m mostly silent.

My claim that its a world chat is not my made up opinion. There was big drama few years ago on cerb, when a group of players tried to enforce the NN to be only for Questions and Help which ended with a few temporary bans because GMs said "the Novice Network is for all kind of conversation as long as it doesn´t violate the TOS".

This is the issue, it shouldn’t be for general chit chat or a world chat. It should be for assisting and teaching novices. We may actually have some players who know what they’re doing if it’s used for an actual purpose rather than zero rules

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Originally Posted by Nayout

It's not that I care bro

The Mentor system requires some fixing, but whenever I see complaints from it I think people have no idea how to fix it. What requirements do you make to be a mentor? Triple Legend? parsers 99? to people who have more knowledge of the game with exams? Top 100 The Feast?

None of these requirements certify that you are a better or a worse player or that you know more or less about the game, the current system can be fixed a little but there will always be mentors who have no idea about the game, no matter the system.

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Those achievements definitely mean something. If you are a triple legend, you've cleared the toughest content in the game. Of course there are some low skilled players who have cleared ultimates but just being able to do the toughest mechanics this game has to offer correctly for 17 minutes is beyond what many players can do, let's be honest. As far as 99 parsers, we need some context. Did they farm it? Do they die to mechanics a lot? Are they consistently 99? There are some missing information but being able to parse a 99 means at least you know how to play your class correctly, for the most part. Strategy and party comp matters, but if you are always grey then you need to look at your rotations or cd maangement or something, cuz that is not normal. I'm certainly going to take advise more to heart from a triple legend than some grey savage parser.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Today I was in the novice network and one of the lovely regular posters there decided to tell us all about the end of Shadowbringers. Which kinda puts a dampener on the whole rest of the game for me.

The mentors in the network said not to spoil but the guy was not kicked. When a novice complained they were kicked for spoiling the mood.

I think this is a really broken system. Mentors are people who played the game a lot. They are not qualified chat moderators, they are not inherently good people, they are not even inherently good at the game.

Most of the NN chat on my realm is mentors talking about things like Nier raids etc. I like the idea of a network for new players but it’s like a second free company for these guys.

Anyway this is just a rant really. You put level one sprouts in a chat with no obvious way of getting out of it, while you have level 80s in that chat telling them how the game ends and kicking them if they don’t respect their right to do so. Maybe this should be revisited, it’s not a positive feature imo.

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My experience with NN and mentors in general is that a lof of them are not good players. Based on my experiences alone, I believe many mentors are just trying to get the mount and not really there to genuinely help new players. I think if you check out the balance discord you will get better advice than NN, and if you are in an fc there are usually a few knowledgeable players that are willing to help you out.