I still miss my old thm

It'll be back on rdm (or whatever it will be called). The spells are still in the game. The mage mob on the final AF for mnk crippled me to the point my character was peeing himself on the ground whimpering in the fetal position. It paralyzed me, drain 2'ed me, poisoned me, blinded me and God knows what else in like 15 seconds.

Personally I think blm should have more thm spells but what'cha gunna do.

Man, I miss my old THM that could solo almost all the NMs and was essentially a god. Stupid changes!

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Man, I miss my old THM that could solo almost all the NMs and was essentially a god. Stupid changes!

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Your talking about game balance, if you dont remember shadow sear, punishing barbs, banish, and scourge were all nerfed before they did class reform. Shadow sear was nerfed so much that scourge and banish were more powerful, then they nerfed scourge and banish.

So anyways, im not saying i miss being op, im saying i miss the skill set.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Man, I miss my old THM that could solo almost all the NMs and was essentially a god. Stupid changes!

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I've teased Darkstar with that same line before....
But in seriousness... Thaumaturge WAS overpowered... but you could have taken away the heals and emulate... and since they would no longer have access to chainspell, they would have no longer been so OP

They would have still needed a slight trim.... but in my opinion, now they are too trimmed....
Without heals or emulate, Thaum could nuke, DoT, enfeeble and weaponskill....
They should have had 2 of those four things remain... that way each thing could have transitioned into a job
Like if they removed DoT's and enfeebles but left nukes AND weaponskills.. So thaum could progress into either a Nuking mage job or a A/U TP weaponskill mage

Emulate was pretty buff back in the day. Of course being able to get back a full tank of mp via the aoe mp syphon had a lot to do with thm's soloing crazy crap like dodore back then as well.


I really enjoy the place blm/thm currently hold in the party dynamic. That being said I do hope the next mage class they bring out has the feeling of the old thm. Ie a enfeebling, meta nuking bad ass.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

Your talking about game balance, if you dont remember shadow sear, punishing barbs, banish, and scourge were all nerfed before they did class reform. Shadow sear was nerfed so much that scourge and banish were more powerful, then they nerfed scourge and banish.

So anyways, im not saying i miss being op, im saying i miss the skill set.

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Those skills will be back, on a different class/job. They decided that the old THM wasn't what they wanted so they changed it. Shit happens, nothing's going to change that. They are going to re-implement those skills at a later point. All there is to do is wait.

I miss having to do more than just cast nukes on a Mage...

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Those skills will be back, on a different class/job. They decided that the old THM wasn't what they wanted so they changed it. Shit happens, nothing's going to change that. They are going to re-implement those skills at a later point. All there is to do is wait.

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i never said i wanted anything to change, its purely a nostalgic thread.

Im not saying return thm or anything like that, i can really deal without the drama that that brings. I guess even if a part of the game is gone and you miss it, its still grounds for drama though.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i never said i wanted anything to change, its purely a nostalgic thread.

Im not saying return thm or anything like that, i can really deal without the drama that that brings. I guess even if a part of the game is gone and you miss it, its still grounds for drama though.

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I want them to change something ^.^
I want a red mage, or something of the sort.... :)

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I've teased Darkstar with that same line before....
But in seriousness... Thaumaturge WAS overpowered... but you could have taken away the heals and emulate... and since they would no longer have access to chainspell, they would have no longer been so OP

They would have still needed a slight trim.... but in my opinion, now they are too trimmed....
Without heals or emulate, Thaum could nuke, DoT, enfeeble and weaponskill....
They should have had 2 of those four things remain... that way each thing could have transitioned into a job
Like if they removed DoT's and enfeebles but left nukes AND weaponskills.. So thaum could progress into either a Nuking mage job or a A/U TP weaponskill mage

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the thing was even then i agreed with you that thm needed nerfs in spots. i think they just took a battle axe after the skills when a filet blade was all that was needed.

here's the things that were op on thm:

1. original punishing barbs were way op and they took care of that with the time it lasted decrease.

2. emulate. you would keep it up all the time making solo nm's super easy. they just needed to reduce the cast duration and leave the cast time the same. 30 sec duration 90 second recast timer. that effectively ended the soloing of nm's due to always being resistant to the mob you were fighting.

3. siphon mp. the ability to siphon off a full group of mobs even while dead like dodore allowed thm's to always have mp to keep fighting. they could have either put a low cap on the max mp you could siphon, made it to only siphon off a few mobs, reduced the amount you took per mob, or made it to where you could only siphon off dead mobs for x amount of time.

4. i loved the aoe sacrifice, but the issue was it healed as much as the cnj cure and added regen to the cast as well. it would have been nice just to see them give a drastic drop in heals to make it where it was just a minor heal(like 100hp) and kept the regen in place.

just those 4 minor changes would have effectively taken thm to the level of the other classes. that is what was needed in having the filet knife trim the fat off that made it op. the problem was they took a battle axe and cut out the backbone that made thm a fun class to play out with the fat when it was removed.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

the thing was even then i agreed with you that thm needed nerfs in spots. i think they just took a battle axe after the skills when a filet blade was all that was needed.

here's the things that were op on thm:

1. original punishing barbs were way op and they took care of that with the time it lasted decrease.

2. emulate. you would keep it up all the time making solo nm's super easy. they just needed to reduce the cast duration and leave the cast time the same. 30 sec duration 90 second recast timer. that effectively ended the soloing of nm's due to always being resistant to the mob you were fighting.

3. siphon mp. the ability to siphon off a full group of mobs even while dead like dodore allowed thm's to always have mp to keep fighting. they could have either put a low cap on the max mp you could siphon, made it to only siphon off a few mobs, reduced the amount you took per mob, or made it to where you could only siphon off dead mobs for x amount of time.

4. i loved the aoe sacrifice, but the issue was it healed as much as the cnj cure and added regen to the cast as well. it would have been nice just to see them give a drastic drop in heals to make it where it was just a minor heal(like 100hp) and kept the regen in place.

just those 4 minor changes would have effectively taken thm to the level of the other classes. that is what was needed in having the filet knife trim the fat off that made it op. the problem was they took a battle axe and cut out the backbone that made thm a fun class to play out with the fat when it was removed.

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ok... I've got one for you... (And anyone else for that matter)

15 skills, spells and abilities for thaum... which would you choose (That would be fun to play but also balanced)
The only restriction is that you have to use abilities that are either in game now, or were in game but removed at 1.20
No making up new abilities
If you want to tackle 10 traits as well... be my guest... I'm curious to see what you'd add

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Originally Posted by Rydin

ok... I've got one for you... (And anyone else for that matter)

15 skills, spells and abilities for thaum... which would you choose (That would be fun to play but also balanced)
The only restriction is that you have to use abilities that are either in game now, or were in game but removed at 1.20
No making up new abilities
If you want to tackle 10 traits as well... be my guest... I'm curious to see what you'd add

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there was a thread on this before class reform were we guessed what they would keep, we were way off...

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

there was a thread on this before class reform were we guessed what they would keep, we were way off...

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I do remember that....
I do hope Arcanist gets A/U stuff... I don't fully understand the trap aspect of the original Arcanist description... sounds overly complicated...
Also, I never understood Yoshi saying we only have 2 mage classes, we need more, its not enough...
Melee has kind of always outnumbered mages....
I would have liked a small number of watered down mage classes and a ton of specialized Mage Jobs....

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I do remember that....
I do hope Arcanist gets A/U stuff... I don't fully understand the trap aspect of the original Arcanist description... sounds overly complicated...
Also, I never understood Yoshi saying we only have 2 mage classes, we need more, its not enough...
Melee has kind of always outnumbered mages....
I would have liked a small number of watered down mage classes and a ton of specialized Mage Jobs....

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What i like about other games were mages get a ton of skills and you have to pick is you can have 2 different blm's, and they pick 80-90% the same skills, but then the last 20% they use different debuffs and stuff so they can fill 2 slightly different roles.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

ok... I've got one for you... (And anyone else for that matter)

15 skills, spells and abilities for thaum... which would you choose (That would be fun to play but also balanced)
The only restriction is that you have to use abilities that are either in game now, or were in game but removed at 1.20
No making up new abilities
If you want to tackle 10 traits as well... be my guest... I'm curious to see what you'd add

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abilities thm has for nuke/dot thm
first 5 would be thm abilities for both versions of job:
1. sacrifice 1(small heal with regen around 100hp heal)
2. sacrifice 2(larger heal with regen around 250hp heal)
3. sacrifice aoe(aoe heal with regen around 200hp heal)
4. stygian spikes(recovers mp on hit...same as sanguine rite now)
5. Exaltation - Recover mp

this set of 5 would only move with the nuking job with thm:
6. Excruciate - increases magic attack potency
7. scourge - Deals umbral damage to enemies within an area of effect.
8. banish - Deals astral damage to enemies within an area of effect.
9. siphon mp(takes minor mp from mobs)
10. shadowsear - Deals umbral damage and increases your magic potency in proportion to the different in HP between you and the target.

this would move only with the dot job from thm:
11. bio - Deals umbral damage over time and reduces attack of enemies within area of effect.
12. dia - Deals astral damage over time and reduces defense of enemies within area of effect
13. poison - Posions enemies within area of effect.
14. Contagion - Share your anguish, transferring all your enfeebling effects to the target.
15. Drain - Transfers HP from enemies within an area of effect to you.



or you could go with a dd/dot thm
first 5 would be thm abilities for both versions of job:
1. sacrifice 1(small heal with regen around 100hp heal)
2. sacrifice 2(larger heal with regen around 250hp heal)
3. sacrifice aoe(aoe heal with regen around 200hp heal)
4. shock spikes(deals damage on being hit and recovers minor hp)
5. Exaltation - Recover mp

this set of 5 would only move with dd/tanking setfrom thm:
6. emulate - Imitate an enemy's very essence, assuming their elemental resistances.
7. Phantom Dart - Use thaumaturgy to cast a missile attack.
8. siphon hp(takes minor hp from mobs)
9. Absorb DEF - Transfers a portion of the target’s defense to you.
10. Flashfreeze - Launches a frozen projectile and dealing ice damage. Temporarily incapacitates body parts when targeted.

this would move only with the dot job from thm:
11. Contagion - Share your anguish, transferring all your enfeebling effects to the target.
12. Drain - Transfers HP from enemies within an area of effect to you.
13. dia - Deals astral damage over time and reduces defense of enemies within area of effect
14. bio - Deals umbral damage over time and reduces attack of enemies within area of effect.
15. poison - Posions enemies within area of effect.

with either of these sets there is 2 distinct areas that thm would be able to have 2 advanced jobs out of them. it could either advance into nuke/dot job or into a dd/dot job. i intentionally left out debuffs such as sleep and gravity as those could be moved over to cnj which would have given it a second job it could advance into or put onto a completely new class/job introduced in the future.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

abilities thm has for nuke/dot thm
first 5 would be thm abilities for both versions of job:
1. sacrifice 1(small heal with regen around 100hp heal)
2. sacrifice 2(larger heal with regen around 250hp heal)
3. sacrifice aoe(aoe heal with regen around 200hp heal)
4. stygian spikes(recovers mp on hit...same as sanguine rite now)
5. Exaltation - Recover mp

this set of 5 would only move with the nuking job with thm:
6. Excruciate - increases magic attack potency
7. scourge - Deals umbral damage to enemies within an area of effect.
8. banish - Deals astral damage to enemies within an area of effect.
9. siphon mp(takes minor mp from mobs)
10. shadowsear - Deals umbral damage and increases your magic potency in proportion to the different in HP between you and the target.

this would move only with the dot job from thm:
11. bio - Deals umbral damage over time and reduces attack of enemies within area of effect.
12. dia - Deals astral damage over time and reduces defense of enemies within area of effect
13. poison - Posions enemies within area of effect.
14. Contagion - Share your anguish, transferring all your enfeebling effects to the target.
15. Drain - Transfers HP from enemies within an area of effect to you.



or you could go with a dd/dot thm
first 5 would be thm abilities for both versions of job:
1. sacrifice 1(small heal with regen around 100hp heal)
2. sacrifice 2(larger heal with regen around 250hp heal)
3. sacrifice aoe(aoe heal with regen around 200hp heal)
4. shock spikes(deals damage on being hit and recovers minor hp)
5. Exaltation - Recover mp

this set of 5 would only move with dd/tanking setfrom thm:
6. emulate - Imitate an enemy's very essence, assuming their elemental resistances.
7. Phantom Dart - Use thaumaturgy to cast a missile attack.
8. siphon hp(takes minor hp from mobs)
9. Absorb DEF - Transfers a portion of the target’s defense to you.
10. Flashfreeze - Launches a frozen projectile and dealing ice damage. Temporarily incapacitates body parts when targeted.

this would move only with the dot job from thm:
11. Contagion - Share your anguish, transferring all your enfeebling effects to the target.
12. Drain - Transfers HP from enemies within an area of effect to you.
13. dia - Deals astral damage over time and reduces defense of enemies within area of effect
14. bio - Deals umbral damage over time and reduces attack of enemies within area of effect.
15. poison - Posions enemies within area of effect.

with either of these sets there is 2 distinct areas that thm would be able to have 2 advanced jobs out of them. it could either advance into nuke/dot job or into a dd/dot job. i intentionally left out debuffs such as sleep and gravity as those could be moved over to cnj which would have given it a second job it could advance into or put onto a completely new class/job introduced in the future.

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You sacrifice-loving bastard
No way a DD class gets 3 sacs AND drain... Now you're just being greedy....

I did love contagion though... It was the most underrated but one of the most useful Thaum abilities

Would you take Exaltation over convert? I know people would love to have both... but that might be too much "win" for one class

You would give Thaum a DD/tanking job? interesting...

Any magic combos?

Lastly... if Arcanist ended up with these abilities... would that make up for the Thaum murder?

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Originally Posted by Rydin

You sacrifice-loving bastard
No way a DD class gets 3 sacs AND drain... Now you're just being greedy....

I did love contagion though... It was the most underrated but one of the most useful Thaum abilities

Would you take Exaltation over convert? I know people would love to have both... but that might be too much "win" for one class

You would give Thaum a DD/tanking job? interesting...

Any magic combos?

Lastly... if Arcanist ended up with these abilities... would that make up for the Thaum murder?

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now remember the reason i gave 3 sac is the same reason cnj has 3 cure. a low tier a high tier and a aoe. the high tier would have the highest regen length(say add 5-10 seconds longer than the base). also remember the high tier sac is only 250 hp recover in my post of skills so it's not like it'll be used for the heal, but just the regen itself and they can't be stacked on top of each other. now as far as drain is concerned on the dd i just couldn't think of another dot that's already been put into the game so put it with that class. remember you did say no making up new spells so i couldn't throw some new spell into that spot for dot.

contagion as a tank/dd class would be an awesome thing in something like the miser fight after bad breath.

i would deffinitely take exaltation over convert as long as it didn't keep that 30 minute cooldown. there's a few reason for it too though. with adding back in stygian spikes and siphon mp the thm would be given the much needed mp managing abilities back so convert wouldn't be as needed.

as far as a dd/tanking job i was just giving 2 different directions that could have went with the skills thm originally had. it could have been adjusted to add combo's again had you not stated directly to not add skills and only use the ones in game.


as far as combo's are concerned with the base classes i don't worry about combo's, but once you looked into the long term once the job was added that is where the combo's itself would have came into play. if you sit back and look though what can you really use as a dot specialist besides adding up the different dot's to form like a biohazard or bad breath type attack.

my issue is not what skills that arcanist has or doesn't have. my issue is they have already stated that each class will have multiple jobs attached to them. right now thm is a one way low tier job and not a class that has versatility. it just doesn't have a second direction in which it is able to go from where it is now without adding something completely new that the class itself has nothing to do with now. that was why i broke the class down to just the low tier versions of 2 areas of specialty that way the job could be once it advances it's study into more defined sections of it.

well i miss these skills, too.

ON THE OTHER HAND... when i think of my conjurer, he was really overloaded with (senseless) skills. i mean for exaple choke, burn, frost, rasp... you almost never used it.


well and back then, i love to have some kind of variety (i loved poison spells etc.) but well, you had 3-4 skill bars full of skills, very overloaded.. now we have the opposite. although i think the skills now have more quality than before.


the question is, whats better. quality or quantity? but what i really never understood why they kicked out water spells for conjurer..

and i think too.. that a black mage needs spells at least like Bio/poison/scourge... and that would be enough. not just elemental spells, blm needs darkness spells like scourge/bio that would be cool.



hopefully also the jobs will receive new skills in the near future, when they are raising the lv cap

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

as far as combo's are concerned with the base classes i don't worry about combo's, but once you looked into the long term once the job was added that is where the combo's itself would have came into play. if you sit back and look though what can you really use as a dot specialist besides adding up the different dot's to form like a biohazard or bad breath type attack.

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DoT combos sound AWESOME... I want that....

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

well i miss these skills, too.

ON THE OTHER HAND... when i think of my conjurer, he was really overloaded with (senseless) skills. i mean for exaple choke, burn, frost, rasp... you almost never used it.


well and back then, i love to have some kind of variety (i loved poison spells etc.) but well, you had 3-4 skill bars full of skills, very overloaded.. now we have the opposite. although i think the skills now have more quality than before.


the question is, whats better. quality or quantity? but what i really never understood why they kicked out water spells for conjurer..

and i think too.. that a black mage needs spells at least like Bio/poison/scourge... and that would be enough. not just elemental spells, blm needs darkness spells like scourge/bio that would be cool.



hopefully also the jobs will receive new skills in the near future, when they are raising the lv cap

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there's quite a few spells in the new bars that's never used. you figure out of 25 abilities we have on our bars there's 6-7 that i never touch. if you want to go by quality i'll take shadowsear, bio, dia, banish, scourge, emulate, contagion, siphon mp, and exaltation over everything that blm has now combined. the original thm has both quality and quantity.

There are a lot of things I miss about the old Thaumaturge.

I liked the light and dark aspect of the class.

I liked building TP for Damnation with its neat animation and sound effect.

I liked the enfeebling spells and the absorb spells plus Initiation onto the tank... so I guess I just need to continue hoping for a buff/debuff mage class to come out.

There was a really good set of spells that were quite different from the Conjurer spells, but perhaps a bit too many of them were cross-classable. I love the armory system, but I see how it takes away from class uniqueness.

In the class reforms I would have preferred that they make more of the old Thaumaturge spells class-specific rather than taking them out of the game for players completely (while leaving them for monsters to use!)

Now I don't really play Thaumaturge, and the only reason I play Black Mage is if the party needs Sleepga.

i thought of a couple combos they could of done for blm had they kept it a lil truer to the old thm

srourge>scourge 2 instant cast>drain (hp goes to party in range of mob instead of you)

banish> banish 2increased damage > dia increased dot

thunder> thundara adds shock spikes to members in range > bio increased dot

having to cast the same spell 3 times in a row thunder thundara thundaga seems pretty watered down to me. I dont think we need 3 version of the same spell at lvl 50. I think having the dots added in would have been a nice touch, and drain with party effect.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i thought of a couple combos they could of did for blm

srourge>scourge 2 instant cast>drain (hp goes to party in rage of pob instead of you)

banish> banish 2increased damage > dia increased dot

thunder> thundara adds shock spikes to members in range > bio increased dot

having to cast the same spell 3 times in a row thunder thundara thundaga seems pretty watered down to me. I dont think we need 3 version of the same spell at lvl 50. I think having the dots added in would have been a nice tough, and drain with party effect.

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I like that idea... +1 for you sir

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I like that idea... +1 for you sir

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+1 back to you good sir:)

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

+1 back to you good sir:)

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please never mistake rydin for good....gimp tanks with no ifrit sword..... lol

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

please never mistake rydin for good....gimp tanks with no ifrit sword..... lol

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i hope hes not using a dagger

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i hope hes not using a dagger

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Spatha... hahaha