Combining some buttons into one

I remember during the beta for ARR they actually HAD the combo buttons turn into the next one in the chain.. It was actually very nice.. Dunno why they got rid of it.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

So you want oGCDs to be combined but not the GCD stuff? Arguing for 1 side of the coin but not the other is odd. Why would you ever use a combo action out of combo order? Its actually MORE of needless bloat that leylines and in between is.

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To be honest, personally I'm not totally against combining combos as well, if it leads to better gameplay overall. But I know that a lot of players rather have the system we have now. It would be a major change, while combining like a handful of oGCDs overall across all jobs would just reduce a little button bloat and make space for new actions.

Other than that, we already have multiple threads about the combo topic. I actually created this one to discuss something else here, that's why I said in my OP it's not about the combos, because I knew people would confuse them. ^^

I think it that if they ever plan on merging combos though, the ideal way would be to make it optional.

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Originally Posted by AmiBeau

I remember during the beta for ARR they actually HAD the combo buttons turn into the next one in the chain.. It was actually very nice.. Dunno why they got rid of it.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOVawV_D9n4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrHbLiU8IRM

According to these, it was never the case.

If you want to know what spamming the same button for your entire DPS combo feels like, go ask the healers.

This is problematic for branching combo's, because you need to know what place in the combo you are currently at, in order to keep mental track of your buffs, debuffs and gauge accumulation.
By having it all on one button, you are forced to watch your hotbars continuously, and can no longer rely on muscle memory.

Also, there are some jobs it simply wouldn't work for, such as Monk, whose Perfect Balance opens up all combo moves to be used in any order you like.
Ninja would go down from 4 to 2. So that only saves you 2 buttons, but you want to know what part of the combo you're in for Bunshin/TA windows.
Samurai would still require at least 3 different buttons for it's combos, so it's not saving much space.
Dragoon could theoretically go down from 8 to 4. But again, as you will want to weave Life Surge in before True Thrust, this will make it much more difficult to keep track of.
Dancer will at most shave off 1 button in it's basic 1-2 combo, as the rest are procs that you can hold.
Bard doesn't need this at all.
Machinist... might actually be a job this could work for. You don't ideally weave anything in before Clean Shot as you want to use those on Drill/Anchor instead, and the basic 1-2-3 combo doesn't give you anything besides continuous gauge, the only hurdle here is keeping track of that 10 battery gauge from Clean Shot. But this may still result in the job being 'too simple'.
This sort of 'simplified gameplay' will go hand in hand with 'simplified jobs' and people don't want their jobs being simplified anymore. It's not merely a QoL change.

There is a place for this however, GNB has it in Continuation, and I'd be all for another new job that features this mechanic, if it worked for that job.
But if you apply it to existing jobs, you'll get as much backlash as the healers are giving right now.

Theoretically you could do it yourself (combining the skill in one button) via macro... although, it will add some macro clunkiness here and there...

as smn, i have mixed feeling about this things,
on one side, less button bloat is good thing to an extent,
but on the other side, i just don't want to "accidentally" end my DWT phase because Deathflare is the same button as DWT (as I tend to mash the button when trying to activate them until I need to push other button -- yes, even if it's full gcd button mash... )

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edit:
fun things about macro is, someone (Larryzaur if you know him) actually do a full rotation of smn using only 3 buttons macro: https://twitter.com/Larryzaur/status...37422235926528
yeah, i know it's for meme, but still... (all smn skill button reduced to only 3 macros, is still included in the range of possibility of reducing button bloat by dev, right ? ) .-.

haven't kept up on the thread so far, but I'm in full support of anything that can slim down the existing button amount while preserving the current skills (so that more can be added going forward without needing to gut every class and redo their whole combat structure and leveling experience again)

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Originally Posted by Kokonji

Theoretically you could do it yourself (combining the skill in one button) via macro... although, it will add some macro clunkiness here and there...

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I'm not sure how, because in all cases except Monk, all combo skills are on the GCD and can all be used when the GCD has completed.
If you macro combo skills 1, 2 and 3 to one button, then whatever skill is first in the list, is the skill that macro will use. You'll just be spamming 1 over and over.
And of course as I state above, Monk is the one job this unequivocally cannot work for.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I'm not sure how, because in all cases except Monk, all combo skills are on the GCD and can all be used when the GCD has completed.
If you macro combo skills 1, 2 and 3 to one button, then whatever skill is first in the list, is the skill that macro will use. You'll just be spamming 1 over and over.
And of course as I state above, Monk is the one job this unequivocally cannot work for.

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at least for SMN, having dreadwyrm macro-swap to deathflare and back is safe enough given their longer cooldown and single use (and being on the ogcd), but the demi's and their finishers wouldnt work since you should be using the finisher twice during their duration. i'm sure there's a few other corner-cases that could work (requiescat -> confitieor?), but they're be jsut that--corner cases

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I'm not sure how, because in all cases except Monk, all combo skills are on the GCD and can all be used when the GCD has completed.
If you macro combo skills 1, 2 and 3 to one button, then whatever skill is first in the list, is the skill that macro will use. You'll just be spamming 1 over and over.
And of course as I state above, Monk is the one job this unequivocally cannot work for.

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Oh, yea, i mean for some ogcd that tied to each other (like when we press this ogcd button, it will activate the skill, the button goes on cooldown, and make another button active when the first skill is still on effect - or something like that) to an extent
so... it seems macroing full blown combo is not possible right away I guess... especially if it have branching combos everywhere...

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Originally Posted by Kokonji

Oh, yea, i mean for some ogcd that tied to each other (like when we press this ogcd button, it will activate the skill, the button goes on cooldown, and make another button active when the first skill is still on effect - or something like that) to an extent
so... it seems macroing full blown combo is not possible right away I guess... especially if it have branching combos everywhere...

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it's possible to group all the "flank" and "rear" monk 1-2-3's onto one button each, and just alternate them as appropriate while you go through your combo, but that'd be rather clunky and a bit tough to explain to the player the sort of back-and-forth you go through (especially with dragon kick, the "flank" starter being obtained at level 50)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

If you want to know what spamming the same button for your entire DPS combo feels like, go ask the healers.

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This is hyperbolic. The healer's single target dps "rotations" are made up of 2 buttons a dot and a cast. even with combo compression no jobs rotation would actually compress to a single button. Every current non-healer rotation would still need a fair amount of buttons even if the basic combos were compressed into one or two buttons.

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This is problematic for branching combo's, because you need to know what place in the combo you are currently at, in order to keep mental track of your buffs, debuffs and gauge accumulation.
By having it all on one button, you are forced to watch your hotbars continuously, and can no longer rely on muscle memory.

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That is completely wrong. If you have every played a console action game with combos you would know how easily muscle memory and visual feedback work to let you know exactly where you are in combos without flashing lights.

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Also, there are some jobs it simply wouldn't work for, such as Monk, whose Perfect Balance opens up all combo moves to be used in any order you like.

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Perfect Balance is flawed in its current implementation (it is either used for fast GL generation or Dragon Kick+Bootshine spam no real use of the flexibility) and could easily be replace by another method of fast GL generation.

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Samurai would still require at least 3 different buttons for it's combos, so it's not saving much space.

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Still opens up 4 buttons which is significant considering that a total of 10 buttons are used for weaponskills currently.

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Dragoon could theoretically go down from 8 to 4. But again, as you will want to weave Life Surge in before True Thrust, this will make it much more difficult to keep track of.

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I think you mean Full Thrust and then you simply do Life Surge after the second press of the True/Raiden->Vorpal->Full combo. If you are using Life Surge on True/Raiden that is even simpler you push Life Surge after you do both WT/FC.

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Machinist... might actually be a job this could work for. You don't ideally weave anything in before Clean Shot as you want to use those on Drill/Anchor instead, and the basic 1-2-3 combo doesn't give you anything besides continuous gauge, the only hurdle here is keeping track of that 10 battery gauge from Clean Shot. But this may still result in the job being 'too simple'.

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3rd press = 10 battery isn't hard to learn.

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This sort of 'simplified gameplay' will go hand in hand with 'simplified jobs' and people don't want their jobs being simplified anymore. It's not merely a QoL change.

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1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 5, 5, 1, 2, 3 is not more complex than 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 1, 1, 2. It looks more complex but that complexity is illusory.

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There is a place for this however, GNB has it in Continuation, and I'd be all for another new job that features this mechanic, if it worked for that job.
But if you apply it to existing jobs, you'll get as much backlash as the healers are giving right now.

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False Equivalence. The Healer dps rotation backlash is because the healer rotations lack anything substantial. The 5th casting of Glare/Broil/Malefic has the same lack of rotational importance as the 1st and the 9th where as every 2nd and 3rd button press of a combo does have substance. The healers would likely be complaining a lot less if their DoT needed to be reapplied every 15s rather than every 30s as they wouldn't be spamming the same damage spell up to 11 times between reapplications.

honestly i wouldnt mind if healers had only two offensive buttons (attack and dot)

...so long as they had SOMETHING ELSE that was equally engaging to do, such as old-AST card mechanics, or more in-depth fairy gauge management for SCH, or... i dunno what for WHM since they abandoned the CNJ elementalist roots there's nothing thematic to ground it in now

Think there is a mod for that, plugin in that custom launcher

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Perfect Balance is flawed in its current implementation (it is either used for fast GL generation or Dragon Kick+Bootshine spam no real use of the flexibility) and could easily be replace by another method of fast GL generation.

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Solution: Activating PB grants 1 stack of GL on any part of the chain or 2 if done from Coeurl Stance. I could see the middle ground for it being positional being met in order to trigger the stack. Something like this would also bring more use to tornado kick if used effectively.

For SMN, I'd like to see the Enkindle skills merged into one. I also think that Summon Bahamut and Dreadwyrm Trance needs to be merged together to function like Firebird Trance, meaning that the Trance and the demi summon happens at the same time. Of course, this would only happen at the appropriate level when Bahamut is accessed at level 70, so he needs to be a trait upgrade for Dreadwyrm Trance.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Oh dear god please no. I want more ways to end a combo, not less. This would be like merging every step of GF combo into 1 button, Continuation and all; you take away any sort of fun from the job.

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I'd love the Continuation combo on one button. Gunbreaker is completely unfriendly to the controller people.

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Originally Posted by sexythaumaturge

I'd love the Continuation combo on one button. Gunbreaker is completely unfriendly to the controller people.

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You're speaking only for yourself. Now I am only going to speak for myself: I am a member of the "controller people" and find GNB very friendly. In my opinion, there's no need to make Continuation combo into one button.

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Originally Posted by sexythaumaturge

I'd love the Continuation combo on one button. Gunbreaker is completely unfriendly to the controller people.

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I play GNB on controller and I manage fine.
In fact it's far better than PLD.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I play GNB on controller and I manage fine.
In fact it's far better than PLD.

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I manage too, but it's far busier to play than, say, Dark Knight, which also has much simpler mitigation. You will be switching to different crossbars more often than most other classes, guaranteed, for identical DPS. And for what? A class doesn't need to be carpal tunnel-y to be engaging.

When you say "switching to different crossbars", I hope you don't mean like cycling through them with r1. Because there's a better way.
Otherwise, it's not that big of a deal to switch from R2 to L2 or R2 to R2>L2.

Also since it keeps popping up, pressing a single button repeatedly is just as likely to cause carpal tunnel as pressing different buttons. It's the repetitive action that causes it, not moving around.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

When you say "switching to different crossbars", I hope you don't mean like cycling through them with r1. Because there's a better way.
Otherwise, it's not that big of a deal to switch from R2 to L2 or R2 to R2>L2.

Also since it keeps popping up, pressing a single button repeatedly is just as likely to cause carpal tunnel as pressing different buttons. It's the repetitive action that causes it, not moving around.

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Yes I'm using that, thank you. Still more cumbersome than playing other classes.

Not to OP but some other posts in this thread about combos:

If they'd ever consider putting combos into 1 button, it should be optional imo. Having multiple combo buttons makes it easier for me to manage and map abilities in my rotation in a way that makes more sense to the mind scheme, so it's more convenient for me to have them on multiple buttons instead of 1.

In PVP it doesn't really matter since it's all about berserking and burst there so it sort of makes sense to have them on 1 button.

There is no reason for the Ninja's 'Dream within a Dream', and Assasinate to use two seperate buttons.

Assassinate can only be used within 15 seconds of using 'Dream within a Dream'. 'Dream within a Dream' can only be used once every 60 seconds.

So there is no point at which we need both these buttons present on the bar. The 'Dream within a dream' button should become Assassinate for 15 seconds after it is used.

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Originally Posted by ctcc42

There is no reason for the Ninja's 'Dream within a Dream', and Assasinate to use two seperate buttons.

Assassinate can only be used within 15 seconds of using 'Dream within a Dream'. 'Dream within a Dream' can only be used once every 60 seconds.

So there is no point at which we need both these buttons present on the bar. The 'Dream within a dream' button should become Assassinate for 15 seconds after it is used.

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This would be great, truly one of those "pointless" extra buttons.

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Originally Posted by sexythaumaturge

I manage too, but it's far busier to play than, say, Dark Knight, which also has much simpler mitigation. You will be switching to different crossbars more often than most other classes, guaranteed, for identical DPS. And for what? A class doesn't need to be carpal tunnel-y to be engaging.

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I play both GNB and DRK, and I wouldn't really say I switch (use expanded) hotbars more on one than the other.
In both cases I have pretty much all the offensive skills in one set of hotbars, plus Heart of Stone/TBN, then the expanded bars are cooldowns, passive abilities (like blood weapon) limit break, etc.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

If I understand the functionality properly, that would make Assassinate hard/impossible to buffer after Dream within a Dream if your connection is poor enough since a repeated press of the button would register as Dream before the button "Transforms." Or the reverse could happen: Since they're the same button, you may be prone to accidentally buffering Assassinate when you don't want to. Both being separate buttons is 100% justified.

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Any kind of suggestion can be countered by latency issues.

What is being said here is that once DwD is registered to have been used it switches to assassinate for 15 seconds and has the taxi combo glow until that 15 seconds of server time goes by or it's used and then switches back to DwD. It would operate just like any other combined pvp combo. Tele to wolves den on a tank and hit the dummy using the combine combo. the first action becomes the 2nd after inital use, but if you don't press it again before the combo timer resets it automatically goes back the 1st.

The basic system is already in place so if latency became an issue it just wouldn't register the use of DwD in the case of the former and for the latter the timer would just run out and auto-reset back to DwD.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

No it wouldn't. It wouldn't act like a combined PVP combo because it's an oGCD. The functionality is different between oGCDs and GCDs when it comes to FFXIV's buffer system. Please don't instruct me to try something when you don't understand the issue yourself.

A GCD can be buffered/queued for around 1 second. If a GCD is queued for longer then that, the queue is wiped. For oGCDs, the queue is NOT cleared automatically. If you make an input for an oGCD and your animation lock ends, it's getting used. The only way to clear the queue is to make a new input before the original goes off. You can see it most easily with Enoc and Black Mage. Use it at the beginning of B3's cast time. It'll go off. That's the main issue in this specific instance. If you're lagging, button doesn't change fast enough and you can't queue properly, meaning you clip. If you're not lagging you risk adding it to the queue and forcing another clip if you spam the button. It just doesn't work for oGCDs. Not in a way that would feel good.

Let's forget for a moment that the PvP style buttons will never happen. Let's forget that the people that put time into this game's combat almost universally are against the change. Let's ignore the logistical issues of creating a ton of new buttons for melees/ranged or reworking all the casters to have less buttons because Square keeps buttons the same, more or less, for all the jobs. The system doesn't work for oGCDs because the current queue/buffer system would make that shared oGCD clunky or more strict depending on connection, both of which are negatives. That alone means other solutions should be found because the PvP style system simply would not fit oGCDs well.

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How rude.

First off don't speak for the dev team. We never know what's in their heads anymore.

Second, I may not be super programming savvy but it doesn't take a bach degree to know that this battle system is a little awkward in queing. I know GCDs and oGCDs work a little differently from each other. GNB's Continuation is a literal counter to your programming issue here. It does what I mentioned on an even more complex level since its dependent on the GCD.

Third, don't tell me I don't understand the issue when your argument was already debunked before you even made it.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

How rude.

First off don't speak for the dev team. We never know what's in their heads anymore.

Second, I may not be super programming savvy but it doesn't take a bach degree to know that this battle system is a little awkward in queing. I know GCDs and oGCDs work a little differently from each other. GNB's Continuation is a literal counter to your programming issue here. It does what I mentioned on an even more complex level since its dependent on the GCD.

Third, don't tell me I don't understand the issue when your argument was already debunked before you even made it.

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Actually continuation works differently, because you use Continuation after every GCD, single weaving, you never press it twice in a row on it's own.
Darsian's explanation still holds.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Actually continuation works differently, because you use Continuation after every GCD, single weaving, you never press it twice in a row on it's own.
Darsian's explanation still holds.

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No it doesn't.

In order to use continuation you get a proc that enables its use via GF combo.

Similarly DwD procs the status "Assassinate ready" enabling the use of assassinate. Then in ether case the ability is rendered unusable after 1 use of the proc or if the pro timer runs out and returns to the base button.

Then given that continuation has a base icon and changes for procs, so how could DwD not function as the base while assassinate overwrites it during a proc? So no, his argument is entirely invalidated.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

No it doesn't.

In order to use continuation you get a proc that enables its use via GF combo.

Similarly DwD procs the status "Assassinate ready" enabling the use of assassinate. Then in ether case the ability is rendered unusable after 1 use of the proc or if the pro timer runs out and returns to the base button.

Then given that continuation has a base icon and changes for procs, so how could DwD not function as the base while assassinate overwrites it during a proc? So no, his argument is entirely invalidated.

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I think you still don't understand what Darsian was saying.
The GF combo is on the GCD.
Continuation is an oGCD.

By using the GF GCD you proc Continuation, and this can be queued up like an oGCD, while GF remains limited by being a GCD.
Neither are mutually exclusive.
You can skip Continuation entirely and hit the next GCD combo if you want.
Continuation's 'base icon' is entirely unusable as a skill, unlike DwaD. There is no risk of 'double queueing' Continuation, and far less likely to fail to queue it as you have no real reason to double weave anything, and you certainly can't double weave it with itself.

If it wouldn't work for Dream Within a Dream / Assassinate, why does it work for Geirskogul / Nastrond or Earthly Star?

Actually, this is another reason why I created this topic. I want to know why it's seemingly technically possible to combine some oGCDs into one button, but not others.

As far as I understood what was said was if Dream/Assassinate would be combined, and you would press Dream while lagging, it could automatically register as if you want to do Assassinate as well, so you would use 2 instead of 1 oGCD and thus clip your GCD. Or did you mean something else?

They won't do it, because it gives the "hardcore" player the illusion of complexity, which does not exist. Some feel good "i succeeded in this hard to pull of combo". Now that's hilarious. You just press the same buttons, there is nothing to "pull off". without an actual combat system which requires you to do something more than run in circles, there can be no complexity, you can't even call this a combat system.

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

They won't do it, because it gives the "hardcore" player the illusion of complexity, which does not exist. Some feel good "i succeeded in this hard to pull of combo". Now that's hilarious. You just press the same buttons, there is nothing to "pull off". without an actual combat system which requires you to do something more than run in circles, there can be no complexity, you can't even call this a combat system.

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No one said this was about complexity. This is just about decluttering everyone's hotbars and potentially allowing for each job to have more actions within the same amount of buttons the dev team likes to keep to.

RDM rapier action buttons should be into one, it already is in PVP, i dont see why not in PvE,

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

They won't do it, because it gives the "hardcore" player the illusion of complexity, which does not exist. Some feel good "i succeeded in this hard to pull of combo". Now that's hilarious. You just press the same buttons, there is nothing to "pull off". without an actual combat system which requires you to do something more than run in circles, there can be no complexity, you can't even call this a combat system.

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Having more buttons is actually less complex than condensing combos into one button. When all actions have their own clear function it's easier to grasp your (optimal) rotation. It's why I prefer to have them seperate. If they were to ever combine combos into one button they should imo still make it possible to have them seperate anyway, trough macros or something (without input lag..).

some of this "merge into 1 button" button is actually available if you play the pvp. so that mean for some reason yoshi decide to make the pve button stay like that for some reason.

maybe for complexity filter i guess, i mean if they merge many of function into 1 button (1-2-3 combo into 1 etc) it probably going to look weird, what kind of mmorpg that you can play with only 1 hotbar (10 buttons) lol

It might happen and then somebody else would say why not have seperate buttons for it.

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Originally Posted by Zukissa

It might happen and then somebody else would say why not have seperate buttons for it.

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Then I'll say he can just place the button two times on his hotbar. It's what I am doing with my combos in PvP, so I can play how I am used to.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

No please no. Jobs are dumb enough to play already.

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Jobs are dumbs because most buttons you press actually do the same thing with different spell skins due to the lack of depths of the battle system, eg a DPS ability will be a DPS ability, a healing ability will be a healing ability and a mitigation cooldown will be a mitigation cooldown.

The issue isn't the amount of buttons you have to press but the fact they are mostly redundant with each other.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

No please no. Jobs are dumb enough to play already.

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wouldnt collapsing certain skills to a single button (either as a toggle or an autocombo) free up more hotbar room for things to be added to a class, presumably to increase depth elsewhere and make classes "less dumb"?