Why can't we just have combo chains?

yes, there are too many buttons that seem to exist for the sole reason of creating the appearance of more depth than there actually is. completely redundant or unneeded that do nothing more than need require more hotkeys than are humanly possible to use

Okay, here is what it looks like for samurai on 80, just look at this mess.

this is just the normal damage rotation i need to do for single target. try to follow the line

Red>Orange>Yellow>Green

https://i.imgur.com/jSrexhc.jpg
+offcooldown skills in between.
And the stuff in my Crossbar i have to click because there is no space left for my hotkeys i can handle.

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Originally Posted by Feronar

I actively play both WoW and FF14, and each game has its strengths and weaknesses, and one thing I like about WoW is that it doesn't use 1 2 3 1 2 3 combos in class abilities.

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Agreed. I hate to make WoW comparisons, but it's true. WoW's combat does a lot more with a lot less. In WoW core rotations only have maybe 8-10 buttons but each one does more and they interact with each other in dynamic ways. Instead of pressing 20 buttons in the same exact order over and over you're pressing 8 buttons in varying order depending on the situation, procs, etc.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Okay, here is what it looks like for samurai on 80, just look at this mess.

this is just the normal damage rotation i need to do for single target. try to follow the line

Red>Orange>Yellow>Green
+offcooldown skills in between.
And the stuff in my Crossbar i have to click because there is no space left for my hotkeys i can handle.

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Mh about that, totally unrelated to the OP but have you considered settings your skills differently? I have them so tidely ordered that I never had such a...order groove.
Also honestly, samurai is one of the classes with the least skill bloat.

Not everyone has the same... uhm... workflow? Some ppl just cant play like others, my wife cant handle my bars and neither can i deal with hers, when making suchs things you should consider ppl arent all the same, like i usually have some skills 2-3x on my bars so i dont need to switch the layer (like stun etc).

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Not everyone has the same... uhm... workflow? Some ppl just cant play like others, my wife cant handle my bars and neither can i deal with hers, when making suchs things you should consider ppl arent all the same, like i usually have some skills 2-3x on my bars so i dont need to switch the layer (like stun etc).

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For sure, I only said that because they themselves seem to find their current layout impractical.
I would never suggest to make their bar like mine, I didn't even say what mine looks like :P

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Mh about that, totally unrelated to the OP but have you considered settings your skills differently? I have them so tidely ordered that I never had such a...order groove.
Also honestly, samurai is one of the classes with the least skill bloat.

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i am constantly optimizing the keybinds when ever i find something uncomfortable, i arrange them by priority and how often i use them, if i need to use something quick i can not click it.

It is impractical, because it's too many hotkeys...

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Originally Posted by Arohk

i am constantly optimizing the keybinds when ever i find something uncomfortable, i arrange them by priority and how often i use them, if i need to use something quick i can not click it.

It is impractical, because it's too many hotkeys...

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You mention clicking.... this implies you're on a PC and choosing to use controllers, or you have a mouse hooked up to your PS4?

Ever considered using a keyboard instead of a controller? That just sounds like that would be far, far better IMO. Heck, I think even a PS4 lets you hook up a keyboard to it (friend of mine mentions having a keyboard hooked up to hers), don't see why you couldn't do the same for a mouse.

That way, you would have 36 buttons which is enough for every job in the game, at your disposal with only two button presses (shift+ and ctrl+) and it's only a matter of mapping them to where you'd memorize them and all of the buttons would have equally fast access, except for the first 1 through = being just a smidge easier.

To be quite honest, a game like this just doesn't lend itself well to a controller IMO. I've tried it, and it's just too cumbersome IMO. It's neat that they made a way that it is possible to use a controller, but yet one should accept the fact that it is going to be less optimal than using a KB/M. The same goes for first person shooter games.

But then on the flipside, before anybody accuses me of starting a PC/Console war, most side-scrollers are way better on controller (at least the ones that don't require precision aiming).

It simply comes down to picking the best tool for the job, and that's what controllers, keyboards, and mice are for; they are tools to interact with your computer/console/whatever. Use the right one for the right application, really.

EDIT: So I looked at your screenshot again, closely and this baffles me...

You have a combination of 1 through 7,
Numpad,
Controller buttons,

And that's just making me go wtf?

How are you even playing the game with that setup? Not to judge you or anything, but... how are you swapping your hands between the leftside of the keyboard, a controller (because you have things bound to LT) and on the right side, you're swapping between the controller (RT), the Numpad, and I would assume the mouse (unless you're using left stick to turn the camera instead of the mouse)?

Do you have, like, four arms and hands or something? lol.

I can't imagine any scenario in which you're not furiously swapping your hands between the controller and the keyboard... that has got to be uncomfortable as frick, surely? Is there something I'm missing?

EDIT2: So let me get this straight... the green line...

7 on the keyboard with left hand
RT+Square with right hand
Numpad 1 with right hand (swapping it from the controller to whatever it is that you're hitting those keys with, keyboard, Nostromo, etc)
Keyboard 6 (having to grab the controller with the right hand so you can use your left hand to hit the button)
F4 (which is quite a decent reach which tells me you're not using WASD for movement)

..... just.... no wonder you think SAM is so hard. I'll post a screenshot of mine using full keyboard setup later.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

You mention clicking.... this implies you're on a PC and choosing to use controllers, or you have a mouse hooked up to your PS4?

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How does "clicking" imply i use a controller? You click with a mouse.
i have 9 hotkeys bound to my thumb buttons on my razer Naga and 15 on my keyboard, as you can see on my screenshots, i use F1 F2 F3 F4 F5...

The Num Buttons are the side buttons on my mouse, not the actual num block, no have no controller, i only use the crossbar for skills i click on.

Here is my logic to my keybinds, as the samura has 3 basic skill rotations, i bound them to be

2 > #2
2 > 1 > #1
2 > 3 > #3
makes it easier to remember.

https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductI...153-169-01.jpg

Oh. I saw the Numpad bindings and the crossbars and it made it look like you were using a controller. I didn't know you could bind cross hotbar buttons to KB/Mouse... odd they still show up as LT/RT etc.

I've tried using a naga for that kind of stuff and it just doesn't jive with me, lol. I just use straight up keyboard myself.

If I can ever figure out what is causing the crashes one of these days I'll get one of those programs that speedrunners use that show keyboard inputs and stream a dungeon or something.

And yeah that's what was confusing me, you mentioned clicking but yet you had a mixture of cross hotbars and keyboard shortcuts, I was like "whaaaaat?" lol.

So, i tried out Macros for the first time now and managed to create three small things on Samurai , that saves 4 hotkeys in total and makes it a lot more comfortable to play.

https://i.imgur.com/F0U3ZFP.jpg
Can be used three times in a row , casts Shoha if possible, or else it will use Iaijutsu and then Tsubamegaeshi , you will never waste any Shoha stacks with it, i tried it out and is really reliable.
(saves two hotkeys)

https://i.imgur.com/r3PB9Qd.jpg
Uses Third Eye, and if used again will use the small heal.
(saves one hotkey)

https://i.imgur.com/GLwndPG.jpg
Makes You jump backwards, if pushed again, uses Enpi, If you're too far away, uses Enpi.
(saves one hotkey)

For a number of reasons actually.

1. It would be more controller friendly.
2. It would be more arthritis friendly.
3. It would help prevent and alleviate repetitive strain injuries from Ulnar Deviation for Keyboard users.
4. Level Sync Learning Curves would be reduced since combos wouldn't have you pressing keys that have been disabled when you've dropped 40 levels. They'd simply reduce the number of actions a combo has, allowing you to essentially press the same keys to operate your character just fine, regardless of what level you are. (note: some independent skills might still be an issue but the benefits outweigh them by leaps and bounds)
   
   and
   
   
5. Less focus of the interface would mean more focus on the fight. There would be less of an unnecessary learning curve to enjoy the game, thus making FFXIV more approachable to an even broader audience.

It makes too much sense.

Not to mention a legacy mode could be preserved for individuals who's prerogative is to play the piano. You wanna press all those keys, go ahead.

I always find it odd when people talk about how consolidating combos to a single button would help with carpal tunnel or arthritis when it really wouldn't. It's a repetitive action either way, it doesn't matter that much whether you are pressing 3 buttons or one button, you are still pressing buttons repeatedly for minutes on end.

I don’t care enough about this to really be against it. If it’s a option I don’t really care either way

I wouldn’t use it the same reason why I don’t main a Healer as a DPS.

Yeah i'm gonna have to slightly disagree with you, my wrists and hands in general feel a hell of a lot better now that i've macroed psuedo-combo chains for my Machinist and I can only imagine how a proper combo chain system would help combo heavier classes. I understand that we can't mitigate said problems entirely but ideally you want to reduce the range of issues.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

BRD wouldn't even see any benefit, DNC... I don't think you'd want to do this, because of how their procs work. And I suppose there's a single combo for RDM.

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Just like how the Machinists 1-2-3 combo and Spreadshot in PvP turn into Heatblast and Auto-Crossbow when Hypercharge is activated, the bard could actually benefit from adaptive slots. For example, Heavy Shot automatically turning into Straight Shot when proc'd or Wanderer's Minuet Turning into Pitch Perfect. You can already achieve this to a lesser extent with adaptive macros and though I wouldn't really call them much of combos, they'd save 2 keybinds and cut down on finger acrobatics a smidgen.

Really this goes for any skill that has some direct interaction with another.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

How does "clicking" imply i use a controller? You click with a mouse.
i have 9 hotkeys bound to my thumb buttons on my razer Naga and 15 on my keyboard, as you can see on my screenshots, i use F1 F2 F3 F4 F5...

The Num Buttons are the side buttons on my mouse, not the actual num block, no have no controller, i only use the crossbar for skills i click on.

Here is my logic to my keybinds, as the samura has 3 basic skill rotations, i bound them to be

2 > #2
2 > 1 > #1
2 > 3 > #3
makes it easier to remember.

https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductI...153-169-01.jpg

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Hmm, you are not utilizing Q and E at all.
So wouldn't it be easier to put more skills on the keyboard and then use some of the mouse buttons on the side as shift/ctrl left/ctrl right modifiers? so you can quickly switch between the 'sets'?

Idk most of the time I'm playing on controller and I have yet to find a class where you cannot easily put all buttons in a way you can play smoothly, and I have leveld them all.
Since most ppl say it's easier on mouse+keyboard I'd assume it is mostly up to utilizing your buttons and modifiers smartly. :eek:



To the topic itself:
I prefer having different buttons for each combo skill, because even tho ppl keep saying that it's "braindead" and "too easy anyways" pressing a rotation it is indeed making a big difference especially in hard content. DPS checks are a thing because ppl are often doing their rotation wrong or don't know it in the first place. It definetly adds a layer of difficulty in already stressful fights and seperates good from not so good players.
It would indeed simplify the gameplay quite a lot if they changed this, imo and I'd rather not see the game watered down even more. :)

The "swap button" system (i.e. the PVP system) works well for classes that have different static combos, like DRG Full Thrust or Chaos Thrust combos... but would break for classes who's combos "fork" or can be "interchanged."

Honestly, this type of system would really help the Duty Finder in general if it were optional. If you give new players the option to implement "dummy buttons" for their basic rotations, while letting veterans/hardcore players customize by keeping everything separate... you would end up with a lot more "good enough" players, and it would not affect the "best of the best" players whatsoever, other than making their DF's a little less aggravating.

But it would work for some and thats a start. Also it would free up bottoms so we dont end up with 3 skills till lv 50 at 7.0 lol ...no but really, imagine still having 3 buttons but diffent combos on em - GNB uses it for its lv 70 skill and its amazing, imagine the other 3 moves would be one button as well, we could get another combo to interact with it later on too...

And on some jobs... like RDM i hate using the enchanted combo as smt the server would not take the first or mid step and waste my mana, on a button that would not work as it would be locked into the right order.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

I always find it odd when people talk about how consolidating combos to a single button would help with carpal tunnel or arthritis when it really wouldn't. It's a repetitive action either way, it doesn't matter that much whether you are pressing 3 buttons or one button, you are still pressing buttons repeatedly for minutes on end.

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The majority of stress that forms carpal tunnel and the like doesn't actually come from softly pressing a button X number of times with one's thumb or the like, but rather from the turning of the wrist or stretching of the hand, etc., in repositioning from one button to another, especially when doing so in a rush.

Personally, I probably wouldn't use the feature, as moving through the keys helps me keep track of timing and makes me less prone to mistakes. After my hands have cycled through keys A, B, C, and D some number of times, I'll know it's time to Hagakure and, soon after that, Tsubame-Gaeshi.

But I see little to no reason to deny others the option if they feel it'd help them.

What little reason exists is based solely in slippery slopes: "If we let them consolidate our combo skills, they'll design arounds that fact and give us even more bloat oGCDs to make up for it!" All I can offer to that argument is, well, maybe, but likely not. That they've already bloated our "combos", by nature of their being XIV-style "combos", certainly hasn't prevented them from giving plenty of oGCD (or, say, in Monk's case, even GCD) bloat.