SE, please nerf Dancer if you aren't going to fix bard.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

How many people saying melee/caster uptime is some easy non factor, actually plays them in anything that matters? From what I can gather most that claim it as such don't actually play either.

I've yet to see an actual argument for bringing ranged up that isn't based around the chicken little "the sky is falling" fear of being totally abandoned. It didn't happen when dual BLM was a dps gain over bringing a ranged for the 1% buff.

What I suspect instead, is that many ranged players got used to being ridiculously strong, and now that they're closer to where they should be they find it unacceptable.

You can absolutely take 2 ranged. You just can't take 2 ranged, and the bottom dps from melee and caster alongside them.

Physical ranged is a safety net for the party, able to react to the other members movement/mistakes without the loss of uptime. This safety net is what you're paying lower dps for. It's just that unlike Red Mage, who's safety net is payed between itself and it's res target (weakness) ranged pay solely for theirs. (Let's not mention SMN, it needs nerfs to the number of instant casts it gets among other things.)

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I don't even know where to start. I can only invite you to read the other thread and make actual research before assuming completely random and wrong things.
There is no safety net or reaction, you might be playing the wrong game. Most difficult mechanics in savage requires 8 people alive and ranged won't raise anyone.
Ranged were not in the heart of the XIV team since the end of HW. MCH, for example, was good during 3.4 and 3.5, it was a pitiful show during Stormblood, locked out of PF at the release and a pain to play. BRD had a broken utility (Permanent 2% crit to the party), and that was it, BRD was the default choice.

Please actually read the different threads and make research before making such assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But it's not without return.

In exchange your party doesn't have to consider anything that a triple melee, or double caster might have to. It doesn't compromise healers because it's better to make the healer move than the Summoner, Red Mage or Black Mage. It allows greater flexibility than a double melee would.

There are implicit gains to taking Ranged that numbers don't account for.

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i'm just gonna assume that weighting tripple melee against potential double physical ranged is made in jest, if we really reached the point were the "default double class" role needs a third slot square may please kindly delete physical ranged alltogether.

but the "not compromising healers because its better to make the healer move than the [caster]", okay that is in theory at least a fair point, its once again the "physical ranged don't lose dps, someone else would lose dps handling a mechanic" point but its at least in theory a fair point. In practice however this completly falls flat if (lets for once compare physical ranged to casters) the caster in fact could handle the mechanic while losing lets say 100 (or even 500 dps), yet has a 1500 dps buffer on the physical ranged leaving the caster with 1000 dps to spare, yet this is the world we live in.

the situation where the group may say (like, this may happen in some fights, surely not all) :"if we take a physical ranged than the physical ranged does the mechanic without losing dps, if we take a caster we could let the caster handle the mechanic and still deal 500 group dps more, we however decided we prefer the healer handling the mechanic and therefore deal 1000 group dps more than with the additional physical ranged" is not an advantage to bringing a physical ranged.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

What I suspect instead, is that many ranged players got used to being ridiculously strong, and now that they're closer to where they should be they find it unacceptable.

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I don't feel ridiculously strong as a DNC.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I don't feel ridiculously strong as a DNC.

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Exactly. DNC to me just seems "ok"
Dungeon runs however hands down, DNC tears groups apart but i still feel like the jobs are not at all close to being balanced.
Groups do still bring Bard in Savage but i could be wrong but i have not seen DNC in the latest Eden.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I don't feel ridiculously strong as a DNC.

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I think they mean prior to shadowbringers. Where ranged was always a guaranteed position in a group. Especially BRD, for example, who always had a spot in the "Meta". There where even times that double Ranged was Meta, effectively kicking casters from high end raids (#notall before someone pulls a no true scotsman).

So they believe that ranged as a whole has been "brought down to normal" and people don't know how to deal with. And considering certain peoples reactions to previously overpowered or guaranteed classes in thier respective role being normalised (coughcoughScholarandtoalesserextentWarriorcough) I can see what they mean.

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Originally Posted by Dakuryon

I just wish they'd bring the old Scholar back tbh ...

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Case in point.

I just wish they'd bring the old Scholar back tbh ...

I sure do love being excluded from parties due to them already having a mch/brd but more than welcoming 2x casters/melees /s

The only reason physical range is taken is the 1% stat up, that is glorified babysitting and so sad to see, yes physical range was op in past but the role didn't need this level of undertuning where it is a big enough detriment to have 2 in a party that it is more worthwhile taking an average caster/melee over a god tier physical range.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I sure do love being excluded from parties due to them already having a mch/brd but more than welcoming 2x casters/melees /s

The only reason physical range is taken is the 1% stat up, that is glorified babysitting and so sad to see, yes physical range was op in past but the role didn't need this level of undertuning where it is a big enough detriment to have 2 in a party that it is more worthwhile taking an average caster/melee over a god tier physical range.

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So, it's not happening to only me.
Double Rangeds are excluded from groups, either buff the role or change the community's mind.
Remove the 1% buff and you can be sure you'll see 2 Melees/Caster everywhere

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

So, it's not happening to only me.
Double Rangeds are excluded from groups, either buff the role or change the community's mind.
Remove the 1% buff and you can be sure you'll see 2 Melees/Caster everywhere

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I mean peoples don't take double ranged in pugs simply because pugs group often don't have a lot of damage in the first place. For having tried both pugs and static, the difference between the total damage is pretty huge. I wouldn't say it's a job dps issue, more like a player skill issue that makes it really hard to run double ranged in pugs.
If your pug group is full of only orange parser or purple, or even blue/green ones then double ranged IS a viable option. But we all know that most of the time such groups do not play much with pugs, for the reason mentionned above. :p

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

I mean peoples don't take double ranged in pugs simply because pugs group often don't have a lot of damage in the first place. For having tried both pugs and static, the difference between the total damage is pretty huge. I wouldn't say it's a job dps issue, more like a player skill issue that makes it really hard to run double ranged in pugs.
If your pug group is full of only orange parser or purple, or even blue/green ones then double ranged IS a viable option. But we all know that most of the time such groups do not play much with pugs, for the reason mentionned above. :p

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while somewhat true viable in the sense of "can it clear content" is not is not the same as being "balanced".
if the question is if classes are well balanced than the real question should be if physical ranged are able to offer equal value (that does not necessarely mean numbers, though realistically it at least mostly boils down to it at its core, "value" can also be things like "great support" or "enables us to skip more complex strategies in favor of easier ones"). at the end of the day however most things "free movement" offers can also be offered by a caster, maybe not as "free", but in exchange with a 1000-1500 dps buffer so theres a lot of room to have some losses and still come out ahead, so physical ranged are hard pressed to offer anything like "equal value".

in fact i would say their relative value is so diminished even the 1% buff you could count as value for the first one you take is barely working out. as someone who exclusivly uses partyfinder for raids/ex trials i can say the general consensus i experience is that people don't even care for that single physical ranged, like they want it in, but really more for better parses or maybe because they need the health offered by the 1% stamina, surely not for any value of the class.

yes, i am implying that even the 1 physical ranged you do take you don't take cause of a general "want" but more so you can feel better about yourself for parsing better, don't kid yourself, the guys that regularly parse 95+ want to keep it that way, be it for personal satisfaction or so others don't start excluding them (once raided with a tank who was just awesome, like seriously best player i've ever seen, will admit without a second thought that guy was better than i will ever be, and yes that guy was very concious of parses being uploaded when he ran with us as it was a pretty casual static so no optimized buff windows etc and he didn't want others to see for fear of being excluded in the future). that is not saying every great player is an elitist ass or whatever, but you don't become like top 2% of a class without putting in some effort, and its normal to feel like you want to show of at least a little in that situation and the same goes for basically every level. if you are allways just shy of gold , like 92-94 range you will want that 95% parse, if only so you can say you did it. if you are hard pressed to parse green but actually want to become a better player than the first time you are actually blue may be like a right of passage, some "i escaped the club of the ones that suck total ass" moment, thats just how humans work, but not taking a single physical ranged works against that goal, as that dps actually gets counted in your favor.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Exactly. DNC to me just seems "ok"
Dungeon runs however hands down, DNC tears groups apart but i still feel like the jobs are not at all close to being balanced.
Groups do still bring Bard in Savage but i could be wrong but i have not seen DNC in the latest Eden.

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Look again.

All physical ranged dps are as played as other dps jobs.
Ironically, BLM in the second least played dps despite being the current top rdps job bar none.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Look again.

All physical ranged dps are as played as other dps jobs.
Ironically, BLM in the second least played dps despite being the current top rdps job bar none.

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Popularity is tied to gameplay, not damages (And or utility if you look at SB's meta mentality).
Take a look at Stormblood, BRD was so much simpler that it had from 3 to 4 times the number of MCH parses yet MCH had more damages than BRD.
BLM was rarely popular.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Popularity is tied to gameplay, not damages (And or utility if you look at SB's meta mentality).
Take a look at Stormblood, BRD was so much simpler that it had from 3 to 4 times the number of MCH parses yet MCH had more damages than BRD.
BLM was rarely popular.

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That's not entirely correct.
First, BRD has been much stronger than MCH for the majority of StB. It wasn't until a buff at the end of the expansion that MCH became competitive (arguably stronger in some cases), but at that point it was too late. Also, MCH had gameplay issues and was very ping dependent, making it unviable for many players with poor internet connections. This is not the case anymore, as there are a couple of tricks that can be used to remove latency problems (and the current rotation is way easier than before, which is why you also see more MCH compared to StB).
Second, BLM is currently widely recognized as one of the best DPS jobs as far as gameplay/rotation flow goes. The problem is that you need to work hard to be rewarded with the top tier dps it can potentially output and a small mistake can result in a significant dps loss. Also, it's not a "prog job" because many parties prefer to bring the additional safety net of a caster's raise, so many people naturally gravitate towards the next most powerful caster.

In any case, I was simply answering the guy I quoted to show that DNC is as present as BRD and MCH in the new savage tier.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I sure do love being excluded from parties due to them already having a mch/brd but more than welcoming 2x casters/melees /s

The only reason physical range is taken is the 1% stat up, that is glorified babysitting and so sad to see, yes physical range was op in past but the role didn't need this level of undertuning where it is a big enough detriment to have 2 in a party that it is more worthwhile taking an average caster/melee over a god tier physical range.

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Same :/ I wanted to be DNC main for the entirety of Shadow but for Savage i am to be a Red Mage. There are various reasons i guess for groups to not want multiple ranged like DNC and Bard or Mach

Dancer pretty much killed Bard, it's even worse in PVP where Bard used to be the easiest/best ranged now its the worst because Dancer is so strong. :cool:

Good. It's time for bard to be NERFED HARD. It's time for it to join Warrior at the bottom of the barrel :). Same thing with SMN, for too long they have enjoyed cushy positions in parties.

RISE MY BROTHERS! RISE!!!

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Look again.

All physical ranged dps are as played as other dps jobs.
Ironically, BLM in the second least played dps despite being the current top rdps job bar none.

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That might not be correct anymore after patch 5.2,

My stuff is showing a drastic increase in Red Mage power in Dungeons.

So that might no longer apply.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That might not be correct anymore after patch 5.2,

My stuff is showing a drastic increase in Red Mage power in Dungeons.

So that might no longer apply.

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You do realize that's 5.2 data right?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You do realize that's 5.2 data right?

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Try this link instead...

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=3&metric=dps

It doesn't show anything even remotely close to that.

Black Mage 89.12
Samurai 85.07
Red Mage 83.57
Summoner 83.18
Ninja 83.16
Machinist 82.93
Dragoon 82.86
Monk 82.11
Bard 76.10
Dancer 74.04

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Try this link instead...

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=3&metric=dps

It doesn't show anything even remotely close to that.

Black Mage 89.12
Samurai 85.07
Red Mage 83.57
Summoner 83.18
Ninja 83.16
Machinist 82.93
Dragoon 82.86
Monk 82.11
Bard 76.10
Dancer 74.04

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Bro..... you just linked dungeons.

...Dungeons...

There is nto a single shred of useful data on that page.

Well you cant please everybody, yet nerfing dancer is just silly. This class is sooo heavily RNG based, its like stormblood mch but v2. Each attack has 50% to enable next skill, that skill has 50% to give 1feather, 1feather has 50% to give fan3. Its like inception RNG inside and RNG with another RNG at the corner. So besides standard/technical dances rest is just pure RNG, still I am amazed that they let this happen after what happened with mch in heavensward and stormblood (rng skills).

All the bard has to do is watch for its DoTs as they are responsible for skill ticks. As a dancer I really hope at one point they will drop the whole rng skills and give steady damage, it could be with lower potency but will less rng aspects, since in times its really frustrating (using all skills 1234 10x in a row and not getting even 1feather is really frustrating)

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Bro..... you just linked dungeons.

...Dungeons...

There is nto a single shred of useful data on that page.

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What are the majority of players running tho? I understand that that savage is better for comparing and parsing the damage output. But dungeons are actually a really good metric for the sheer popularity of a job to play.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Bro..... you just linked dungeons.

...Dungeons...

There is nto a single shred of useful data on that page.

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Of course he linked dungeons because he was talking(!) about dungeons in the earlier posts.