I think that something people seem to miss is that healers have been made a lot simpler, and without ever getting an explanation from the dev team. No reason, no justification, nothing. It just happened, deal with it.
We've lost more than we gained, and even what we gained is questionable for the most part (copy-pasted, rebranded, nerfed actions everywhere). Devs response? Absolutely none. It's been months already.
AST population is ridiculously low since Stormblood ended, healer queues are extremely short, people all over the forums and other places have been saying the role is dumbed down.
While all other classes are talking about numbers and balance, we're worrying about fun and gameplay.
You just can't pretend that everything is fine and the devs are listening.
If we have been complaining for months, it's because the devs are pretending we're not there. If we're complaining, it's because the role we loved has been gutted and we have nothing to replace it.
How are healers fairing right now?
Printable View
-
11-29-2019, 05:56 PMLodi
-
11-29-2019, 06:59 PMSide-EyeAST players haven't been stuffing their faces -- the number of people playing it has drastically decreased since SHB released. Numbers don't lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrocco
To the point: some people like the ROLE of healing, and will continue to prefer and play that role over others even when their favorite healer job is having QoL issues, or simply isn't as engaging and fun as it once was. Should they just shut up and pray that devs telepathically figure out how to make the jobs better or more fun without any feedback? Should they walk away from the game because the other roles don't appeal to them, and just check back when 6.0 drops to see if there's a new heal job that might actually feel engaging and rewarding beyond filling health bars?
As long as Squeenix does not acknowledge the feedback and/or announce improvement plans, people are naturally going to keep discussing it, keep making suggestions, and keep hoping that some of the ideas or complaints trickle upwards.
Nobody is forcing you to read these discussions. Unless you're a dev, feel free to skip ahead... -
11-29-2019, 07:13 PMLodiThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Side-Eye
And the steak face stuffing thing is just wrong. People are not playing healers just to complain.
I'd compare it more to a restaurant.
You love this restaurant, it's the only one you really like in your district and you've been going there for years.
And then one day, your dinner seems odd. Not as good as it used to be for so long. When you ask about it, a waiter whispers to you that management has decided to go for cheaper ingredients and cooks.
Management refuses to talk about it despite your repeated attempts.
So, well, you still like this restaurant. But everytime you go there you feel disappointed by the food quality.
It's still your favourite restaurant, yet you can't help but remember how much better it used to be, and wonder why did management make this decision.
That's how healers feel right now. -
11-29-2019, 07:14 PMCyroccoI mean, they only read the couple most popular threads, but sure, spread the complaints across 10 5-page threads. Works out fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Side-Eye
-
11-29-2019, 07:31 PMCrushnight
Though people are complaining about how much the playstyle was changed in ShB, Sch had 6 years with its full fairy management, myriad DoTs and resources being either for heals or dealing damage, Ast had 4 years with its myriad of card buffs and card interactions (Time dialation/RR etc), these were changed completely in ShB, people are going to be upset and it certainly doesn't help when the only response from SE(in regards to Ast) has been "We don't want to touch it because of the people who like it now", well what about the people who liked it before it was changed the ones who had 4/6 years of experience on it, "crickets".
Then you have the issue of the solo experience as a healer which is the majority of the MSQ where you have your entire way of killing single target monsters for over 70 levels, that can be considered stupid design, as that is mind numbing, any new player that truly wants to get the most out of healers is going to be bored very quickly especially if they have no interest in the story.
Ast numbers are the lowest they have been since 3.0 where the devs purposely undertuned it for fear of invalidating Sch and Whm, but unlike 3.X they have already buffed Ast to be the strongest healer yet the numbers are still very low, Whm which was classed as inferior throughout SB had a far healthier population than current Ast. This suggests that either everyone is whining and just not playing out of spite or their is a genuine problem the majority of the Ast community has with the current implementation to not want to play it in content. Personally i think it is the latter.
Current Ast biggest problem right now is that it is controller unfriendly especially trying to go for optimal gameplay, so much so 8+ macros are preferred despite their input delay, the only ways to fix this is to either look at Ast design or change the targeting system which effects every job or ignore it, those are SE's choices and they historically go with ignore it until it is too late ala SB Mch and Whm. -
11-29-2019, 11:45 PMEaMett
Going to reiterate what many have said. Playing healer is still the same as it was after shb. Boring for the most part. TEA is pretty much the only piece of content that will keep you busy during downtime. SCH is still a one button spam, WHM hasn't changed at all (although I think WHM is close to the best it's ever been this expac), AST card system is still roughly the same so if those changes weren't appealing then they won't be now. Diurnal AST got balanced though so if that was initially your main concern with the class then you're in luck and should give it a spin.
Solo content on healer is absolutely abysmal and probably the worst gameplay experience I've had in a long time. Esp as SCH compared to before.
I think it hasn't helped that the savage tier this time around was pretty easy. -
11-30-2019, 02:07 AMGrimGale
Look, if you want objective data, just check the parsers in high level content, heck check the parsers in any type of group content.
You will notice how many times people cast heals VS damage spells.
And I am talking about casting, not actually healing with oCDs.
In my personal case I find myself casting damaging spells three times as often as I cast healing spells. And I still get around 25% of overhealing.
Meaning, most of my fights I spend them casting Broil, Biolysis and ED.
And the more gear and experience my static gets the less damage I have to heal and the more I have to spend on Damaging.
So at this point, it's clear that the game is designed in a way that has healers not heal for long periods of time.
What should we fill that time with? -
11-30-2019, 03:22 AMSlopranoI can understand your frustration so lets be frustrated together. And it's really been five months already, that's some serious dedicated shunning on SE's part. Time flies when you're having fun, and time have disappeared into the small hours writing about Scholar of yore, complain about current iteration and post possible fixes to drive up post count. It's a damn sight more engaing and fun than playing Scholar in it's current form. Because it's not just downtime, damage options, ogcds overflow, butchered fairy etc. It's everything. Every ittle thing coming together and when all the little things are gone there is just refilling healtbars and Broil III.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrocco
Another reason for posting is to hopefully clear up misconceptions. If I'm choosing to still represent the job here, talk about it or straight up complaing for five months straight I want you to know it's not because it's some Flavor of the Month that suddenly got sour. I still play healer, it's my favorite job in this game for it's theme and lore. Certainly not anymore the gameplay, as I find myself only signing up to anything if friends needs help. It's more an investment of up to six years for some, hoping for better times in Stormblood and getting an even worse hand dealt in Shadowbringers and feel extremely underapriciated with how the developers talk about everything from other jobs to hairstyles to tripping overthemselves for a new event that took my server one week to clear off, but these jobs that are part of the pillars of the all the endless fights we are forced to do. Had I not still had this vivid memories of fun it used to be, you can be sure I wouldn't have written tomes of text on the subject.
And come, Healers aren't trash, they are filling healtbears for days with no issue. Now current Scholar on the other hand, that is some straight dreg with that don't show much thought behind it. I like healing too, but I also like unorthodox playstyles and approaches and do it under stress that comes with having the life of the party in your hands more. Combine them together and you had Scholar 3.0 that shot morphine out it's eyes, dance with faires and sprayed rainbows out it's bum. At no point did it occur to me to say: "Man this is really fucking good, but if only all these debuffs and buffs went away, all that dot management was reduced to one, instead of having to use whole skillset to help reduce most damage I instead get a lot of free healing on oGCD cooldowns, I got a job gauge with slow reacting abilities I barely use, Aetherflow got locked out of combat, I didn't have to take risks with Cleric Stance, I actually get the third fairy I wished for on a Monkey Paw that took away the second, instead of being crap at healing and have to rely on a bit wonky but loveable AI to handle healing I would rather it's presence be barely felt on this PET job."
I still chalk the old Arcanist and Scholar combo up to some kind of underpayed and underapriciated genius intern. Just from the way everything flowed and ebbed as you could control Lily while casting, had a tool for everything and could go form single-target to aoe with just Bane, Miasma 2 and Shadowflare. With how blissfully unaware SE is for this brilliance when they removed Miasma 2 to make way for Summoners stuff but didn't think about the consequences this had for Scholar until months after. Then forced the genius intern to make into some kind half-damage/half-dot meant to be spammable but not really despite protests. Then they stepped in the exact same bucket of paint with Energy Drain: Just unlabled a skill and find out months later there actually was another job that benefitted from it. And when they found out they put it on the wrong end of the store on aisle 45. Young genius intern was still intent to save this trainwreck but his work got cut off by a senior project manager's uncle sister's kid who go the job by nepotism that wondered why even have so many spells when you can have one for single-target and one for aoe and then whack Lily for less hassle. He got a promotion for that, the young genious intern probably left for greener pastures and is creating fun and engaing playstyles elsewhere.
Something is seriously wrong about healer designers at SE and the lack of willingness to talk is almost bordering on it being an embarrasing secret. This isn't complaining for the sake of Quality of Life potency ajdustments, this is complaining to bring entire Quantities of Life back into the job. -
11-30-2019, 01:02 PMDeceptusBad players cried about Cleric Stance (swapping int/mnd) so we lost it. Bad players cried that they wanted to be "pure healers" so we got forced into that role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi
https://i.redd.it/13gxd4bnrd301.png
This is despite the game telling you that you should do damage during downtime in multiple places.
https://i.imgur.com/3wXop7L.jpg -
11-30-2019, 04:47 PMMizilitiSo you knew and you know why people are posting angrily. Wait, you want what? Discussion about healers? I thought over the 6+ months people are constantly posting constructive criticisms and suggestions. SIX+ FREAKING MONTHS WORTH OF IDEAS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrocco
Hold on, let me go dig some posts and copy paste those good ideas for you. No, why should I bother with something people said already.
As the result, every posts will end up with similar replies whether it's positive or negative. -
11-30-2019, 04:51 PMMitsukiKimura
Parse runners do not make up for the player base and I feel like this is what SE took feedback from when so called "fishing for balance". There are x5-x6 more players playing WHM/SCH than Ast even when AST has been seriously buffed, and it is still the least played healer. One day they'll realize that it's their card system that made people quit the class. It's not fun, it's depressing. I still struggle to play Astrologian to this day, (Fact I just can't get into WHM). I remember people asking me to throw certain cards on them, having the ultimate choice and variety in the cards you were handed to you was the best feeling even if you were given a horrible draw. Buffing my heals, regens and shields doesn't make a class more enjoyable. So if they wanna take Parse runners into account for what makes classes more enjoyable then they can look at the horrible AST player base numbers. Even if it takes time to fix it, at least I'd want to be acknowledged on our concerns and feedback about it.
-
11-30-2019, 09:24 PMKabzy
The sad part is that they could very easily implement a kludge here to at least satisfy healers until a 6.0 rework:
SCHOLAR
-Give then Shadowflare back.
-Give another DoT (Miasma) and Bane. Nerf potencies of Broil and Biolysis to compensate.
-Have the Faerie go back to operating on her own GCD.
(Personally I miss the old Cleric Stance, Eye for an Eye and Virus, and I think SCH could do with a further 1 or 2 DoTs, but we “casuals” couldn’t possibly handle that!!)
ASTROLOGIAN
-Revert the card system.
-Give Time Dilation back.
(Apart from this, I don’t mind the new abilities and the job already feels very involved.)
WHITE MAGE
I don’t really think WHM needs much, but a couple of things that would be nice:
-Return Aero III and make Presence of Mind a 120s CD in exchange for a nerf to Glare and Dia.
These changes are all giving things back to the healers, so it really wouldn’t take up too much time to implement. It’s definitely not a fix, and I’d like them to go a different direction with healing in 6.0, but I think this would satisfy a lot of players until that day!
(Should point out I’ve only recently returned to the game, so while I have all heals at 80, I haven’t had a whole lot of time to test them out!) -
12-01-2019, 12:02 AMDeceptus
What gets me the most is DoTs play very well with healers and in ShB, SE forced the hard cast model more.
What it should be: Throw up dots during your down time, heal while those dots are rolling.
What it is: One dot, spam filler spell for 30 seconds and OGCD heal the tank because mobs hit like wet noodles. -
12-01-2019, 12:12 AMSaefinnYou kinda gotta ask why the forums have stayed tilted for so long. Prior to 5.0 I wasn't even active here, although I was kinda "meh" about 4.0 SCH, I still had more to do than now and that was redeeming, but I just hoped in 5.0 what I didn't like would be improved but 5.0 made it worse, hence I figured "join in".Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrocco
With regards to Reddit, it was the Reddit community that conducted the poll that put SCH and AST right at the bottom of job satisfaction ratings for Shadowbringers with an overwhelming dislike.
That said, I'd expect the strongest criticisms to be directed at the official forums because this is the place where feedback is given. And in fairness to the community here, a lot of the time when people ask about healers here, people tend to say "judge for yourself to see if you like", which is something I do too. I don't think anybody has had a problem with other people liking healers. But if people are gonna ask for our opinion, of course, an opinion will be given. The opinions here are no less valid to what might be given by the Reddit community and vice versa. If anything, I find the opinions tend to split in different camps that can relate to what versions of the healers they fell in love with when starting the game, how experienced they are with them and so on. I fall into the category of people who fell in love with SCH back in 2.0, and my favourite version of SCH is the 2.0 version and still don't see why we had to deviate from that design because I thought it was good design and would have liked an evolution of it.
I've also played SCH for years and as a result am probably more impacted by how the job has changed versus somebody who picked it up in SB or ShB because I've got a lot more of a vested interest in how it used to play. But also recognising those who have picked up healers in SB or ShB may be enjoying them, much of my feedback and feedback I've seen people agree with has taken into that into consideration. My desire: an evolution of 2.0 SCH. My compromise: 5.0 SCH with fun stuff to do in its downtime.
But the analogy is horribly flawed. If we're looking at equivalence:
- There's only 1 restaurant you like eating at
- You love dining out, it's your thing, it's what you do for fun and you really enjoy it and don't want to stop doing it, plus its what you do with your friends and it's this restaurant you go to
- Steak is your baby, you love it, you can't get enough of it, you want to like it and you keep trying
- The steak recipe has kinda gone to crap, but you're not really a pasta person, or a curry person, or a pie person. Whilst the steak is not what you like anymore, it's what you know.
- The restaurant has long queues outside of it, but people who eat steak get priority entry as do any friends who join them because every table has to have a steak eater, your friends don't really eat steak but you, a steak lover, could help them jump that queue
- You're not as good at eating other food as you are at steak and it works out better for the group if you're the one eating steak...somehow.
- Somebody asks "how's the steak?", I say "terrible". Somebody asks if they'd like the steak, I say "try it yourself, see if you like it any better than I do".
And to be honest, I'm struggling to make the analogy fit.
I mean, there's lots of reasons people still queue as healers when they're hating what they've done to it. In fact, I am still unhappy with SCH, which is my baby, I now heal on AST because out of the 3 it's the one I have the fewest complaints about and I don't main it either, I've swapped to DNC for that. But if I want a queue boost, or I'm helping friends or just having that healing itch, I'll queue as it. -
12-01-2019, 03:13 AMCrushnightHeck just give back Time Dilation and old Celestial Opposition and a few problems would either go away or be far less of an issueQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabzy
-Buffs feel unimpactful, Time Dilation on hardest hitter and CO on Divination and Lord/Lady
-Mp issues, CO Lucid dreaming
-Help prolong Noct's Celestial Intersection Regen with TD, giving them a greater buffer easing their mp better
This also adds more interactions with Horoscope being able to prolong both the procc'd and unprocc'd versions until you feel the need to, Neutral sect lasting longer (this would be overkill on making healing easier XD).
This wouldn't help Ast current controller issues, make Ast stupendously overpowered again(especially with it being the strongest healer atm), yet it would bring back some of Ast interaction with itself that it lost. -
12-01-2019, 03:27 AMCeasariaBased on what I have read here, it's unexperienced AST and some DPS players who have said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura
And this is why it's quite depressing. They have erased their old AST community to create a new and very small community because of feedback from not experienced AST (or even non-healer).
I hope SE could see in his statistic that I have more than thousand and several hundred hours of gameplay with SB AST while I have 2-3 hours with ShB AST (just quit at level 71). -
12-01-2019, 05:30 AMSaefinnAlthough I didn't really play AST pre 5.0 I'm kinda sad that we have this current system, whilst my view is that it breaks up DPS nice still, I prefer the idea of the old system. It feels like as there was the view to fish for the balance, instead of giving more incentive to use other cards or embracing the idea that if you've got a card you don't want you can still use it to your advantage in a "I make my own fate" kind of way, they instead made every card The Balance and said "screw it" with variety, choice and the lore they built around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceasaria
Literally the old card system with the current Minor Arcana mechanic would have addressed this straight up, maybe make it lesser than The Balance to save people going straight for it, but it means there's no real penalty for a 'useless' card. People who liked making their MNK's go fast could still make their MNK's go fast and people who wanted to fish for The Balance get a free "The Balance" button when they can't fish for it. -
12-01-2019, 05:53 AMRisvertasashiWhile I don't wish to diminish AST's with feedback about being unhappy with the current system -Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceasaria
I've raided alongside plenty of ASTs in SB. And they almost universally fished for balance. It wasn't this thing no one did.
By all means ask SE to change it back, I'm not here to criticize that though. -
12-01-2019, 06:14 AMCrimsonGunneri personally wouldn't believe someone who start his own post by disrespecting other people opinions and goes to call them even hypocrite because they are main healers and they give feedback about the healers they love and their problems they have at SHB all in an effort to make healers more appealing and suprise suprise enjoyable to play for all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrocco
it immediately shows how low to take you seriously just based on that alone.
another thing to note is your example which not only is idiotic but its way way way way way wrong especially comparing jobs to stakes, a good example for everyone is "everyone a critic" which is the perfect thing.
imagine the skills as food. each job is a restaurant that serve different type of food, roles are what each restaurant specializes in making(for example dps are like Italian cuisine ,tank are Asian cuisine and healers are french cuisine).
now you got us the customers/critics, we each go to our favorite restaurant(job) and it makes the most delicious food(have great skills and kit) that we love every day but then come the moment where the menu updates and changes are made, fine some changes are not ok and some were but overall each restaurant was still enjoyable to stay and kept its loyal customers there and even attracted new ones but then comes SHB.
all the restaurants menu's were changed to:
1.they remove half of what was there with no reason or gave something else as replacement(not even 1)
2.what was left is only 1 dish for each section on that side that had his dishes removed and it is left with only 3 dishes cause it had only 3 sections(single target damage,dot and aoe damage).
3.took the uniqueness that each restaurant had(fairies and card managements), removed it, made their menu bland without any flavor or style and lastly the execution of it all is poorly done that it causes health problems to its customers(fairy ghosting/delay,AST controller based players)
4.all the restaurants now have all the same dishes only with a different name where the only uniqueness left for each restaurant as explained before is so poorly done it borderline criminal.
so those who go to those restaurants every day now find themselves not going because they love them but because they don't have any other restaurant to go. there wasn't a new restaurant opened that serve the same cuisine but they don't like/can't stand the different type the other restaurants serve so they are stuck between the only 3 restaurant that serve that type of food without any way out but those that did left them done it cause those 3 were so grotesque and could stand the spices the other cuisines have and use for the food.(which says a lot compare to leaving because "DNC was the new class and i loved it so i main it now" to "i left cause healer skills were too boring/have too much issues so i took something i find bearable to do")
so as you said yourself it speaks volume when those who trash about the healers are main healers themselves because that means that the same people who love healers, play everyday as a healer,know everything about their main,their skills and kit and how to use them, means a lot more about how severe is the problems healers have compare to someone who doesn't play one and does not even touch it.
there is a reason why it stays tilted for so long but you prefer to ignore it all and disrespect your fellow healers by calling them hypocrites which shows more about you then about the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrocco
-
12-01-2019, 07:12 AMBrandedbladeThis quote made me wish I was a psychology major because goodness I really want to analyze this strong attachment healing in ffxiv is to ones identity when they say stuff like this. But then again I'm the one guy who actually likes the new AST cards and have defended them so I can definitely be seen as a hypocrite in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner
-
12-01-2019, 07:32 AMCrimsonGunnerthat wasn't what made you seen as a hypocrite....and go get a psychology major then nobody stopping you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
-
12-01-2019, 07:35 AMDonnicton
There are reasons that AST clear representation in TEA is like 10% across all FFL reports and Square needs to take a hard look at why.
I started the game a little while before ShB so I have maybe two or three weeks experience with the old card system and therefore can't really say whether I want the old card system back specifically, but the current one is boring and uninspired and I'd be perfectly fine if it were gone. It's also completely incompatible with very hectic fight mechanics unless you're just kind of blindly throwing cards out there and hoping they line up the way you want, which I guess Square wants you doing? -
12-01-2019, 08:20 AMMesarthimI wouldn't pay them any mind really. They love to insult people and downplay things. After all to them it's fine because "they" liked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner
Your energy is better spent on people who like constructive conversations. -
12-01-2019, 09:55 AMSaefinnBut dude, for the snide quip about people's attachment to healing, you're putting as much energy into defending the state of healers as people are criticising it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
-
12-01-2019, 10:17 AMRai_Takara
I just want to chime in on AST since I used to main it for 4 years.
I think the card system changes was a good start, however there is room for improvement. Like for example the seals. Perhaps instead of coupling 4/5/6% damage increases to seal variation, different combination of seals should have a bonus effect. Perhaps 10% reduction in damage taken among party members. Maybe, MP cost reduction of spells? etc. Of course these effects are in addition to the guaranteed 6% buffs that divination provides. That way you have a choice as a player, BUT your choice doesn't have negative tradeoffs with your damage contribution, which avoids the problems with the old card system (this would also fix the AST opener feeling very busy/clunky). Make no mistake, fishing for balance was a real thing and I'm glad it's gone, however I think the current state of AST is better than the previous iteration.
(And before anyone asks, I main Dancer now because it's a thing, not because of the current state of healers). -
12-01-2019, 03:34 PMMitsukiKimuraI promise you, I'm far from unexperienced. I've poured my heart and soul into this class and now I'm sad on the inside every time I touch my cards. I never complained about the old system, yes there was moments where I was dealt with the "Worse" Possible hand but I adapted and dealt with my fate. I've never been so frustrated at something I love playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceasaria
-
12-04-2019, 04:33 AMBrandedbladeHence the self callout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saefinn
-
12-04-2019, 09:34 PMtestname
I think one word fit - "bad"
-
12-05-2019, 03:38 AMCorbeau
I enjoyed SCH in Hades EX, at least. In part because shields matter and in part because SCH constantly trips over it's own feet and untangling the anti-synergies takes effort.
-
12-05-2019, 05:57 PMLodiCareful what you wish for, SE might hear you and put a 5 seconds delay on every SCH action like they did with Seraph, and add another skill that removes or disables the fairy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbeau
-
12-06-2019, 10:06 AMCorbeauYou say this as if it's not happening anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi
-
12-08-2019, 12:20 AMMOZZYSTARThis ^ I've been playing AST since it first came out, and I was among the first 3 in my original server to "master" it and give advice to other players. Sure, there were times where there would be a more ideal card, but a good AST would utilise whatever they were given because any card could help at least one class in virtually in situation. If you really didn't need that card (like spire) due to being in an entire team of mages + DRK or something, then it could be Royal Road for an AoE effect of the next played card.Quote:
Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura
Like Mitsuki, I never complained about the old card system. In fact, I loved it. The card system was what made AST my absolute favourite class. Now I struggle to even play it because the execution is super user-unfriendly. They've "explained" why they changed the system, but I really don't get why they changed it. It wasn't broken, it had been pretty solid for the past 3-4 years after the initial fixrd after its release. They could have just changed the cards' effects (even though those are crap now, too) and tacked on that seal thing (also not great).
If they could just revert the cards back to the way they were in their entirety, I would cry with happiness and stop complaining and practically grovel. The cards are that frustrating. I feel like I couldn't even play my class in higher level content because the button executions are so clunky.
I really wish the team would own up to the fact the new card system is a flop.
(Sorry for whining.) -
12-08-2019, 01:33 AMGeminaIt's not though. It's basically the old system with all the unnecessary fat trimmed off, and divination tacked on. Previous card system was a convoluted mess, that gave players an illusion of choice where there was none. I get that it could be fun for the AST to go through all the layers, but it's a shining example of when you make a job's mechanic too dependent on the RNG. If you literally have to create abilities to shave away some of those layers of RNG, then it defeats the purpose and all it is is combing combat with concepts from fishing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR
If AST want to admit that the previous card system was a mess, but at least it was fun, I can accept that. However, I will never accept that AST was a well designed class because its issues were so vast, it caused problems for the other two healers. I don't want to give the impression that the problem with healers lies solely with AST; the role in its entirety has a lot of problems that pertain to all three.
However, I do like to bring up the previous AST card system because it is a great example of how a cobweb design can still be fun and engaging, and the current state of our healers, which gets all the X's and O's lined up through homogenization is boring players to tears. They need to find a way to combine both, but I have no idea how they are going to do it with encounter design the way it currently is. -
12-08-2019, 03:29 AMSaefinn
Drawing on that, I think it shows a valid point.
Good design and something melding together well and flows doesn't make something fun. Of course, I'm all for the idea of both, just I'd prefer bad but fun design over good but mundane design.
For the AST card system, I feel like there could have been room to mix the two systems. The main complaint of the old system is over wasted cards or suboptimal cards and are too RNG dependent. The current Lord/Lady mechanics would be a good fallback and they would basically still be 'The Balance' but the balance itself will be more effective. The means if you get a card you want to use, use it. If you don't, Minor Arcana it, that card still gives a useful enough of DPS buff.
Heck they could take it that step further still and tie in the seals, which could in effect make your choice more meaningful, because you might sacrifce seals in favour of buffs you want or push seals to get your better Divination. Though I might see how somebody might think that'd be overcomplicating it. -
12-08-2019, 06:22 AMLodiThat's something I don't understand with SE's vision of the AST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
We had a system with terrible lows and amazing highs, and tools to mitigate and control the RNG.
So a strong dependancy on RNG, but amazing results if used well.
Now, we have a system with near-identical results regardless of the RNG and all RNG management tools gutted, but this system also makes fishing easy, thus making it a standard.
So meh results all the way, very little difference between lazy and optimal play, while requiring the most effort.
Basically, we went from a RNG mess with lots of decision making, to a boring mess with way too many button presses. From one extreme to the other, no in between.
SE could have simply tried to balance the cards themselves (because they were often grossly over or undertuned; who would want extra TP when you could get 20% damage instead?), to streamline the card generation (looking at you, triple Ewer), or to remove Redraw altogether (can't fish without a fishing rod, eh?)
I get the idea of reducing fishing, and making the cards less unreliable. But here SE threw a bulldozer on a porcelain house just to build a grocery shop.
There were so many ways to subtly change the card system without completely destroying it. -
12-08-2019, 06:29 PMSlopranoThey already went this route once with a "fire and forget" raid buff in Chain Strat. Going by how important they find Balance to be for ASTs, why even have randomness tied to it. The same kind of "increase damage on target by 6% for 15 seconds, 120 second cooldown" button bland unimaginative thinking would be right up SE's oGCD balance alley and could've left the unusual and unpredictable system well alone for those who enjoyed getting that right card at the right time for that warm fuzzy feeling. Still don't play Ast but for stories here it's comparable to getting pre-5.0 critlo deployed just at the right time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi
-
12-08-2019, 09:27 PMGrimGale
Base damage buff should have never been a card.
We have plenty of secondary stats, cards could have been designed to buff them.
Arrow: Skill speed/Spell Speed
Bole: Tenacity
Ewer: Piety
Balance: Determination
Spear: Crit
Spire: Direct hit -
12-08-2019, 09:35 PMSaix027The problem i see is people will go for the actual meta, damage was always the meta sadly and is needed thanks to bad game design at times and the only answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
I like the idea of this as buff but then people will always try to go for the "best", causing the same issue we have now, people prefered balance over everything, so they made all cards a balance card. -
12-08-2019, 09:51 PMSide-EyePeople who spent any significant time "fishing" were not playing the class to its potential, nor were they getting as much fun out of it as they could have. The fact that you could set a specific card to the side and use it EXACTLY when you wanted to, definitely lessened the dependence on RNG. The fact that each card had two different uses, one as a buff and the other as a buff enhancer, also presented the player with an abundance of *choices* which allowed the AST to play in different ways depending on their group or raid. Not only did that make the class engaging, it also made the player feel empowered. It was very rare playing my astro that I ever felt like a victim of RNG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
But post-5.0, we are literally forced to "fish" for a buff card suitable for the type of DPS in your party, and continually "fish" to get three different seals -- and there is very little choice in how to play the resulting buff. See the irony? -
12-08-2019, 09:55 PMMitsukiKimuraThis is what I've thought of and came up with for the cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Saix027
Arrow: When used, gives the target a Haste effect for 15 seconds
Bole: Grants the user/target 10% Defense for 15 seconds
Ewer: Grants the user 50 MP potency recovery for 10 seconds
Spire: Grants the user 10% Direct hit for 15 seconds
Balance: Increase damage dealt by 5% for 10 seconds(Damage and duration has been nerfed to make other cards viable)
Spear: Increased critical chance by 10% for 15 seconds.
Royal Road is back with it's old effect
This will bring back flavor without making "Balance" Meta. Square enix shouldn't try to cater to those who care only about "Meta" they should be concerned with how they can bring back it's lore and unique game play while making all cards worth using.