The coppied Factory vs SHB canon

I just assume we had help in Ala Mhigo up until the second boss, then INITIATING SOUL EXTRACTION! happened, and the WOL was the only one in the group who could get their soul back in their body.

So everything from the second half of the second boss and onwards was solo, due to the rest of the strike team getting soul yoinked.

I guess that could have happened too and at least would make more sense. Because why would Zenos see us as his equal if we only defeated him with others. I use the same view on Gaius and Ultima in the MSQ dungeon. We go into it with others but at some point they might have split from us because it got too dangerous. Or they died in the fire at the end (since we only have one mount) and nobody cared. :')

Zenos has a pretty warped view of the world, he might view your party the same way he views his katanas. Just weapons that the WoL utilized excellently, and just like his own katanas, nowhere near as strong in someone else's hands.

I also don't think it's required that Zenos views us as purely his martial equal, we all forgetting he was fine with possessing a primal in order to fight us?
Zenos doesn't care about fair fights, just good fights. Don't think it really matters to him whether we provide a good fight by getting personally stronger, or by leading the combined forces of four nations into his castle. We've proven we can beat him either way.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Zenos has a pretty warped view of the world, he might view your party the same way he views his katanas. Just weapons that the WoL utilized excellently, and just like his own katanas, nowhere near as strong in someone else's hands.

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This, exactly. Zenos's backstory makes it clear that any strategy that brings victory is a valid one. If there's something he can't defeat, he'll find a way, fair or foul, to reach victory. He expects exactly the same of his beloved rival.

Zenos is a man for whom the rank and file are as wheat before the thresher. the fact that we were able to bring three "lesser combatants" to our fight, and commanded them well enough that Zenos couldn't lay them low in an instant, is a testament to our skill as a leader, one of many skills that make us the worthy rival he sees.

The scions are all kinda busy atm with their own things.

That was meant to be a reply to an earlier post, now it looks like a nonsequitor
Oops

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

That was meant to be a reply to an earlier post, now it looks like a nonsequitor
Oops

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You need to click "reply with quote" if you're responding to a post. "Reply" does nothing to link your post to the other one; I'm not really sure why it's an option.

You can edit the quote in later - go to the post, "reply with quote" to get it, cut and paste it into your original post.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Okay so the 2nd Lore book doesn't say anything about how our fights with Susano or Lakshmi happened.

The Following are all the ones it does state the WoL soloed.
[i]Haukke,

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Which is a contradiction as official artwork released by SE actually shows our old friend Derplander in Haukke Manor fighting succubi with his friends.

Then there is plenty of other art showing multiple party members in other boss battles, raids and dungeons: fighting the Behemoth FATE, fighting Leviathan on the Whorleater, the Final Coil of Bahamut, even Ifrit has artwork depicting multiple fighters at his summoning (although, it is stylized, and how many have the Echo there and are thus not tempered immediately is a good question. ;)).

So, I'm liable to take what the lorebook says that those fights at least were only fought 'canonically' solo with a grain of salt.

Just did ala mhigo with one of my wifes twinks, at least on german Zenos even says smt like "dont gvie up, friends!" when adressing our partie. IMO the "he sees the others as our tools" sounds pretty valid.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

even Ifrit has artwork depicting multiple fighters at his summoning (although, it is stylized, and how many have the Echo there and are thus not tempered immediately is a good question. ;)).

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In the particular case of Ifrit, it's mentioned that he gets summoned a lot, and the WoL has canonically fought him at least twice through the main story quests (thrice, if Extreme counts). The likely explanation is that we defeated him solo the first time, then brought backup later when we were told he'd be much stronger.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

In the particular case of Ifrit, it's mentioned that he gets summoned a lot, and the WoL has canonically fought him at least twice through the main story quests (thrice, if Extreme counts). The likely explanation is that we defeated him solo the first time, then brought backup later when we were told he'd be much stronger.

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Except even that wasn't the first time he was summoned anyway - he had been summoned numerous times back before the Calamity in 1.0 - it seems he was the very first Primal to be summoned (he shows up with Titan in 1.0's opening movie bursting out of Lake Silvertear after all). One of the very first times he was seen (and the first for players) is that the player encountered him with their Path Companion as part of the 1.0 Main Scenario quest 'Lord Errant'.

It was this particular encounter where the Echo was discovered to protect against Primal influence, although that encounter the player's character did not actually fight Ifrit at all, they simply beat up some of the tempered unfortunates until they "lost the will to fight" and Ifrit's equally tempered amalj'aa summoners once it was discovered the player and their Path Companion were immune to tempering, before Ifrit ended the encounter himself and went on a long "reason you suck" speech and declaring that the "Paragon entreated that I spare you", and then after demanding the two adventurers declare to him "that they would refuse to summon another", the scene ended and the amalj'aa basically kicked the player and the Path Companion out of the Bowl of Embers back out into Thanalan (incidentally it was not known at that point that the 'Paragons' and the Ascians were one and the same, that connection was not made til ARR).

Also, in ARR's encounter, one of the npcs you can speak to in the cell after being captured by the amalj'aa tells you that he's dug a tunnel out of Palga'than back to Thanalan that could potentially be used to escape, but that if they all tried using it it would alert the guards so he intreats you to escape by it and return with reinforcements, pretty much giving an actual reason the player fought Ifrit with others and not just themself (an npc that appears in Camp Drybone likewise gives you access back into there afterwards).

And it's frequently mentioned in game about the Warrior of Light often drawing on "Echo-blessed" adventurers to help them in Primal fights, so it's pretty clear most Primal battles are not fought alone.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

So, I'm liable to take what the lorebook says that those fights at least were only fought 'canonically' solo with a grain of salt.

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Wait we should take artwork that might or might not have been just drawn to look cool as fact over the lore book which is written by the lore creators themselves? Also some of those like Ifrit dont even have Derplander in it. Arent we also one of the few summoners ingame? The same with blackmage and white mage? How are those than jobs for adventurers?

And again, where are all these strong people outside of these fights? Why do they disappear when we need them for solo instances or for example in the case of bismark when we got caught? Did they fall of?

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Also, in ARR's encounter, one of the npcs you can speak to in the cell after being captured by the amalj'aa tells you that he's dug a tunnel out of Palga'than back to Thanalan that could potentially be used to escape, but that if they all tried using it it would alert the guards so he intreats you to escape by it and return with reinforcements, pretty much giving an actual reason the player fought Ifrit with others and not just themself (an npc that appears in Camp Drybone likewise gives you access back into there afterwards).

And it's frequently mentioned in game about the Warrior of Light often drawing on "Echo-blessed" adventurers to help them in Primal fights, so it's pretty clear most Primal battles are not fought alone.

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Of course there would be a randomly dug tunnel there that the Amalja dont notice and they also leave us not bound at all. And then we do escape and we somehow find other three people willing to follow us back that also randomly have the echo and are strong enough to beat him. With those we go back through the tunnels unoticed and instead of freeing everyone else and fight our way outside we just stick there like idiots (unbound) until we are all brought towards Ifrit which then tempers everyone else. (And in cutscene only speaks to us again) Afterwards the three heros go away unoticed again or at least Thancred does not care at all that there are three strong other people with the echo with us and the only one that gets the admiration from everyone is us.

Its also made quite clear that before us people used rows of sacrifices to defeat those. Where were all these adventurers before that? Why is the WoL (at that time a complete unknown noob) able to stumble into all these other strong echo blessed adventurers that seemingly dont help much afterwards either? If we had that many adventurers there to help then Fordola and her group and the now special task for of summoners would not be needed.

If we assume that somehow the lore book lies and every single primal (no matter how unreasonable it was to have adventurers with us there) is not done solo then that means that the WoL somehow is the only one that gets all the crystals and becomes a true WoL, hoards all the success for themselves, ignores their friends after winning and even decide to flee on things with only one seat thus leaving the rest to death, and cheats because quite some tests were for the WoL only, yet the game always gives us these echo blessed adventurers. (Ramuh, Bardam, Hraesvlgrs test) IMO quite a good look at our character and the scions are not even better. No wonder that these adventurers somehow are always not there when we need them the most..

Edit: Also lets not forget that those mentionings of other party members in the quest dialogue itself is often just done in the english version. And a lot of time also with quite a bit humor.

The party stuff is often just the game leaning on the 4th wall, sometimes in very jarring ways as it portrays the WoL as a fraud.
This game is an MMO, and SE wants to acknowledge other players in the story, in a similar way that they try to give lore explanations to pretty much any game mechanic.

This brings the question, is breaking the 4th wall, or leaning on it canon to the story or not? And is it even worth it to get an answer to that question?

We've been told by the Dev's not to see any Amano works, posters, or Expansion trailers/benchmarks as an accurate depiction of how things happened.

The whole adventurer with blessing thing is itself a bit of a riddle because, obviouisly, the WoL is always the player character in the cutscene. Thus, when I play, I'm the WoL, but from the perspective of the other party member(s), I'm also just an adventurer with a blessing and vice versa. Such a story <> gameplay "problem" is not limited to FFXIV, but also happens in Blade and Soul, where the player character is the sole survivor of their MA school, yet during normal open world pve, pvp and dungeons, there are suddenly other "sole survivors", too. Even though the "story" instances are, iirc, mostly solo (back when I had played). So the players have to have a certain amount of suspension of disbelief (is that the correct usage?).

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

The whole adventurer with blessing thing is itself a bit of a riddle because, obviouisly, the WoL is always the player character in the cutscene. Thus, when I play, I'm the WoL, but from the perspective of the other party member(s), I'm also just an adventurer with a blessing and vice versa. Such a story <> gameplay "problem" is not limited to FFXIV, but also happens in Blade and Soul, where the player character is the sole survivor of their MA school, yet during normal open world pve, pvp and dungeons, there are suddenly other "sole survivors", too. Even though the "story" instances are, iirc, mostly solo (back when I had played). So the players have to have a certain amount of suspension of disbelief (is that the correct usage?).

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A lot MMORPGs have this problem that the story is written basically around the chosen one, the one character that safes all and helps people, yet we still get reduced to fetch quests at times despite people know us as THE Hero?
I think Guild Wars 2 handles that more well, i mean you are still the "main" character but as commander slowly building up yet all the tasks you do serve better purpose in my eyes and make sense in the context of it. While here we are "just" the WoL and get treathed like some courier henchman, i mean i hate this in MMORPGs, we have to do things that are "to hard" for some NPC, like talk to the person like 5 meters next to them because? They are glued to the ground while we are expected to save the world at the same time? Yet we still are some nobody.