[Spoilers] I'm getting sick of shonen manga power-ups each arc

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I wonder if Amaurotine souls and the echo are related in some way.

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You're not the first to postulate this, and it has a strong possibility of being correct. Still, we don't have enough canon information to say one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Then there's the real guildmaster of gsm at least up to 60 still thinks you're stuff is crap to the point where he freaking died while almost saying your stuff is good (Haven't done the 60+ quests atm).

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Gigi is not the real Guildmaster. He's a Mammet that was owned by the real Guildmaster, and is now owned by Serendipity, the acting Guildmaster. The real Guildmaster never makes an appearance, in my recollection.

And while Gigi lambastes your work at every opportunity, it's made pretty clear that he's literally unpleasable. You could present him with a masterwork par excellence, and he'd still spit on it. Serendipity, on the other hand, is blown away by everything you do, just like other Guildmasters.

Both Gigi and Serendipity are left behind past level 50. From 50 to 60, your new contact is Marcel, who also cannot stop gushing over everything you do. Moving on to 60 to 70, you become a Goldsmithing instructor to a class of students; all of them take it as a given that everything you touch turns to gold, and can only hope to one day manage a fraction of your genius.

So, no. Goldsmithing is not an exception. XD

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Originally Posted by Gula

Can someone name a JRPG that doesn't have shounen power ups?

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It's not even JRPGs, but also some western MMOs like Guild Wars 2 (where the Commander even raised up back from the death once :D ). The general "trend" seems to be that (some?/many? of) the Western fanbase prefer already bad@ss, gruff and mature characters, whereas the East is used to young-hero-rising-to-glory traits. Unwinnable battles against non-final-boss OP characters is just another staple. Yet, nontheless, while I'm fine with most clichés, I can see how it can get annoying over time. At least it's not as terrible like those overrate LN/Web Novel power fantasy self-insert MCs, who get OP near the beginning and also free affection for little to no work shoved in their behind. While at the same time, most male characters are depicted as pathetic or unlikable jerks with no redeeming qualities.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Gigi is not the real Guildmaster. He's a Mammet that was owned by the real Guildmaster, and is now owned by Serendipity, the acting Guildmaster. The real Guildmaster never makes an appearance, in my recollection.

And while Gigi lambastes your work at every opportunity, it's made pretty clear that he's literally unpleasable. You could present him with a masterwork par excellence, and he'd still spit on it. Serendipity, on the other hand, is blown away by everything you do, just like other Guildmasters.

Both Gigi and Serendipity are left behind past level 50. From 50 to 60, your new contact is Marcel, who also cannot stop gushing over everything you do. Moving on to 60 to 70, you become a Goldsmithing instructor to a class of students; all of them take it as a given that everything you touch turns to gold, and can only hope to one day manage a fraction of your genius.

So, no. Goldsmithing is not an exception. XD

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Serendipity is the true guild master yes even if Gigi says in the first turn in quest he's the true one. I mean you'd be hard to impress if you have been around since the guild became a guild. Even if he's not the real one he might as well be with all the knowledge of what a good piece is. Like I said the damn thing dies on his first praise of your work. He then says the nice thing he said about the cylinder you make for him in the 58 quest must have been a slip of the tonuge. To the students praising you I mean who wouldn't after you make two identical music boxes that play the same tune differently enough that when played at the same time makes a whole new song? Yes, the gem stones are different but let's not pretend that music boxes at least the kind you made are easy things to make.

It's the Superman Conundrum. You've created a character that is likely the most powerful being in your world. How do you make them interesting? How do you create suspense and give this super powerful character a believable challenge? It's why Superman comics are rarely good, and the ones that are focus much more on his relationships and the villain is much more metaphysical. Meaning the "bad guy" is not necessarily a character, but humanity's mistrust or fear of him. This is why Lex Luthor is his best nemesis, because he often embodies and exploits those fears.

That being said, there are characters in the DC Universe that are more powerful than Superman. Such as the Spectre,for example. And if someone like that was ever at odds with Superman, than the Man of Steel would be in SERIOUS trouble.

So it is with the Warrior of Light. Do not think EVEN FOR A SECOND that there are characters in the FFXIV universe who aren't far more powerful than the WoL. They just haven't felt the need to make themselves known to us until now (or later). Perhaps they've just been observing us and studying us. Maybe they even admire us and are trying to figure out how to use us for their own interests. It's all about timing (i.e. the storyline.)

However, I will agree Ranjit was kind of dumb. I had the same thoughts as the OP when I first encountered him. "How is this guy beating me?" I actually had the same thought when I first encountered Zenos in SB. I has just canonically taken down Nidhogg solo (with some of Hraesvelgr's power) so this one Garlean beating me with ease seemed out of left field.

But alas, this is why characters like Superman or the WoL can be challenging to write for. Because you have to balance plausibility with believability in a way that avoids PIS. (Plot Induced Stupidity)

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Originally Posted by Lium

It's the Superman Conundrum. You've created a character that is likely the most powerful being in your world. How do you make them interesting? How do you create suspense and give this super powerful character a believable challenge? It's why Superman comics are rarely good, and the ones that are focus much more on his relationships and the villain is much more metaphysical. Meaning the "bad guy" is not necessarily a character, but humanity's mistrust or fear of him. This is why Lex Luthor is his best nemesis, because he often embodies and exploits those fears.

That being said, there are characters in the DC Universe that are more powerful than Superman. Such as the Spectre,for example. And if someone like that was ever at odds with Superman, than the Man of Steel would be in SERIOUS trouble.

So it is with the Warrior of Light. Do not think EVEN FOR A SECOND that there are characters in the FFXIV universe who aren't far more powerful than the WoL. They just haven't felt the need to make themselves known to us until now (or later). Perhaps they've just been observing us and studying us. Maybe they even admire us and are trying to figure out how to use us for their own interests. It's all about timing (i.e. the storyline.)

However, I will agree Ranjit was kind of dumb. I had the same thoughts as the OP when I first encountered him. "How is this guy beating me?" I actually had the same thought when I first encountered Zenos in SB. I has just canonically taken down Nidhogg solo (with some of Hraesvelgr's power) so this one Garlean beating me with ease seemed out of left field.

But alas, this is why characters like Superman or the WoL can be challenging to write for. Because you have to balance plausibility with believability in a way that avoids PIS. (Plot Induced Stupidity)

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The simple solution is to not make it a contest of power but a contest of ideology or cunning. Unfortunately given the WoL choices that affect the story is outside SE's comfort zone with this game. But it could be an interesting combat mechanic to have the WoL weakened by some poison or other ruse and must engage in unique combat scenarios with their power handicapped. The leveling roulette regularly strips us of our abilities, they could make use of the meta and make us fight a story battle as if we've been temporary de-leveled.

I still don't understand why people think Ranjit was ever our equal or superior, I don't think the story ever says or makes it feel like he is. They say he's strong, sure but I feel he's a danger to our companions and goals rather than us. He's the definition of a fighting style/power unique to the source which is the only thing that really gets at the WoL. Even our final confrontation with him in his dragon-scythe form feels more like his last stand to slow us down rather than stop us. I don't think Ranjit was ever meant to be a challenge for us and more a representation of Eulmore's power and capability with disrupting our plans.

But tbf, i do think he is ok. He was raised in a ending world, fighting a war with sineaters for decades, was from a figher family, so learned from small on most likely and you should know how they say: Beware of old men in a buisness ppl usualy die young. Yes he had no echo, sineater or any special powers besides his snake and style, yet he was a nearly unstopable force. I just feel he deserves more credit.


On the other hand Zenos was stopping the rebellion at doma on his own, while the whole army there was about to fall and as we now know he has ascian blood, this might enhance him.

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Originally Posted by Rayo

I still don't understand why people think Ranjit was ever our equal or superior, I don't think the story ever says or makes it feel like he is.

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Well, in our first bout with him, it ends up with us literally helpless at his feet. Following that, we spent the bulk of the remainder of the 5.0 MSQ running away from the guy. The implication is pretty clear that Ran'jit is meant to be more than we can handle.

Charitably, you can say that he's more than we can handle WHILE also protecting our friends (and Minfilia in particular). Folks have also speculated that his sole victory over us was due to a cheap shot, a trick that we would not fall for again. Whatever the case, folks are irked that we have to make excuses at all - in their minds, there's no excuse for a scripted defeat of the WoL, unless we're up against something TRULY impressive, like Zodiark himself.

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Yet he also has lived in peace for quite some time and only has one part of a soul on top of that.

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20 years out of the guts of a century. Do not assume that just because a small portion was not spent fighting Sin Eaters that it implies he was sitting on his hands doing nothing during that time.

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We might not have decades worth of experience but the WoL has no problem beating such old masters in job quests quite often.

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They are typically done in the context of passing a torch or surpassing training. I have not done them all but I'm going to assume not a single one of them has been fighting for 1.5 lifetimes as a military leader in a world caked in far more danger than Eorzea and also happens to be written as, you know, a primary antagonist to the MSQ.

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As we see ingame most of the sin eaters dont pose a threat for us either.

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Comparing power-levels based on standard gameplay against regular mobs is trite. Reminds me of the Vol'Jin debacle in WoW - poor guy was pretty much curb-stobbed by a regular Joe-Soap demon enemy that we've been killing repeatedly for years (outside of, you know, the story). In STORY context we were so overrun by enemies that we'd have all died if we remained, yet it was still just a bog-standard mob and that's all people take from it when they confuse story with gameplay.

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We solo most of the normal ones and later even defeat certain lightwardens on our own

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And which Lightwarden's did we kill on our own? None. They are dungeon bosses and thus one can only assume that, canonically, they required either the present Scions and/or Exarch or a party of fellow WoL's.

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And while we are already affected by the Light.

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Which only had a noticeable impact after absorbing the last Lightwarden.

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We are able to defeat Omega and we defeated Middy in his prime even if it was a creation of Omega.

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With big raids full of WoL's.

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Also why was Minfilia always killed if she has such a "father" on her side.

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This has nothing to do with his power. As you were told via the story, Ran was training them for combat, yet we know that a) no version of Minfilia has been all that much of a combatant and b) that Minfilia was donating her powers into a vessel, specifically children. You know, little buggers that aren't designed for fighting eternal wars with abominations, especially ones that don't need to do much to convert you into one. Let's keep Ran'jit's power and his ability to train little children separate, because not doing so is like pulling excuses.

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And at the end we just level up a bit and defeat him anyways.

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Like pretty much every threat, right? The whole point of an MMORPG is for us to get stronger, beit levelling or gearing, and take down the latest threats. It'd be a sad day if the game presented us as an unstoppable force who can wade into any situation and simply never be challenged, even when they are out of their element and battling a foe they know absolutely nothing about. How boring.

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So seemingly we only need a few weeks at most to make up for decades if the plot demands it.

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Real timeframe doesn't work here. As far as the story is concerned, the whole ordeal took a few days (represented mostly by sleeping at the Inn and give or take one or two story moments that actually transition from day to night, if any).

Honestly, it's like pulling teeth reading some of these posts. Ran'jit surprised us in a grand total of one duty battle, got beaten by Thancred and then ultimately grounded by the WoL. This is not comparable to Zenos legitimately stomping our faces in twice in a row, hacking up Y'sthola, toying with Lyse, then having to be beaten in Eikon-form after casually taking an actual beating when we 'levelled up' for the dungeon, and then having his mere body be controlled by someone else and almost secure an actual WoL kill thanks to Elidibus. I can understand when people are a little tired of Zenos' power-spike, but I can't fathom why so many people are questioning us being winded by an antagonist in their first encounter before getting squashed once we knew what we're dealing with. Boggles my cranium.

As far as I see it, we wade into the First, start learning of the plight there, learn of a century-long general who has been fighting Sin-Eaters longer than we've even been alive, who happens to be a martial expert (and with a few powers on the side) who winds us before we escape, ambushes us again only to be beaten, and then gets rushed in his home turf and beaten again. Where's the big deal here? I cannot (and never will) see it. It was perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Well, in our first bout with him, it ends up with us literally helpless at his feet. Following that, we spent the bulk of the remainder of the 5.0 MSQ running away from the guy. The implication is pretty clear that Ran'jit is meant to be more than we can handle.

Charitably, you can say that he's more than we can handle WHILE also protecting our friends (and Minfilia in particular). Folks have also speculated that his sole victory over us was due to a cheap shot, a trick that we would not fall for again. Whatever the case, folks are irked that we have to make excuses at all - in their minds, there's no excuse for a scripted defeat of the WoL, unless we're up against something TRULY impressive, like Zodiark himself.

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My issue with Ranjit is that his power source is so poorly defined. He has a dragon familiar junctioned to him. Ok, so how does that dragon compare to say, Nidhogg, in terms of power? While we did have the eye of Hraesvelgr to boost our power, I doubt the wyrm Ranjit used was on either Nidhogg's or Hraesvelgr's power level. It is implied that you and you alone with the eye empowering you are able to take down Nidhogg at his most powerful.

The quest text for the Final Steps of Faith:
Imbued with Hraesvelgr's last sliver of hope, you stand at the forefront of your allies as the last bastion against the raging shade of Nidhogg. Have you the resolve to conquer the great wyrm at the height of his power, or will Ishgard perish in fire and ruin? Here, on the battle-stricken Steps of Faith, your deeds shall decide how the final verse of a thousand-year dirge of grief and vengeance will be sung.

Some will inevitably say the standing at the forefront of your allies bit means standing with the seven other players, but we were defending Aymeric and his knights retreat.

Adding to that, the strongest heroes in Norvrandt each had only one crystal of light. We alone have six which gives us The Blessing of Light and the Echo which allows us to see an enemy's attacks before they go off. The argument that his is a fighting style unknown to us pales as an explanation because the reverse is true as well. We had been chewing through demi-gods for the entirety of our career as a Scion member on the Source (and even longer as a legacy player), while he was putting down rebellious farmers for decades who only wanted a future for their children. He couldn't even kill a Lightwarden for the previous Minfilias so they could absorb their aether and bring an end to the flood with an entire nation's army at his back, we do so with four people, canonically the Scions. To flesh him out, far more context is required for him to be even thought of as an equal. Just because you have been doing something your entire life does not mean you are the best at it. We punched his clock within a weeks time of being on the First.

Oh, that's also without noting that we had just gone toe to toe with a fully realized Ascian, one of the three most powerful beings we have ever encountered with a thousand thousand lifetimes (sorry I just had to) of experience fighting for their people with unwavering conviction (which he lacked by buying into Vauthry's idea of paradise ie: suicide by apathy), in the body of one of the most vicious killers in the history of the Source who wields the Ama-no-Habakiri, one of the deadliest weapons in Japanese myth that Susanoo (a storm god of Shinto origin) obtained by slaying the demonic eight headed, eight tailed serpent Yamata no Orochi. We surprised him in such a way as to render him shocked at our strength and only lost the second go around because of bad timing by a certain Exarch. Which i'm glad they noted Alisaie as being upset about said timing and giving him an earful.

So, who is Ranjit in the grand scheme of things? No one. Nothing. And that, that is the issue.

Ran'jit doesn't have a "power level" supplied by his dragon. No one has power levels, this is not Dragonball Z. Ran'jit has a wealth of both combat experience and life experience in general. The dragon familiar is an accessory, one of many advantages he's picked up over a lifetime of experience; it's not the sole reason he was able to overcome us. He knows tricks that we don't, which is quite reasonable as our own characters still have plenty to learn. Even disregarding the special advantages we had in those fights, the ability to defeat a Primal or a Dragon or even a fully-realized Ascian does not automatically translate to ability to defeat someone with a different skill set than they have.

Who says Ran'jit couldn't kill a Lightwarden? He probably could. Ask Titania what happens when you do. And Minfilia wouldn't be any help there - she does not do the Light absorption thing that we do. She was with us for most of our Lightwarden kills, and she didn't do any absorption there, either. If she had, it would have saved an awful lot of drama later on when we became overburdened.

Any advantages the Echo gives us in combat are fan speculation only. This is deliberate, as the game writers don't want to trample on the narrative players make for their own characters' backgrounds. A lot of people would resent the implication that we're only strong because Hydaelyn made us strong. Because of this the only confirmed abilities it gives us are passive ones - the ability to understand languages, the ability to see the past in peoples' memories, resistance to Tempering. Fordola's Resonance-enhanced fighting ability tests this, but in the end it's still not expressed in-game that we're better fighters because the Echo makes us so. (And a good thing, too, given how easily Fordola's "advantage" was overcome. Good thing our combat skills can't be shut off like her's can!)

For all their longevity, the Ascians are not skilled fighters. They are manipulators, and the only times we've seen them engage in combat are with us. They've probably done so at other times in the past, but in twelve thousand years, I'd guess the amount of actual combat experience they have with individuals whom they can't simply snuff out with a flick of the wrist likely amounts to less than even ours, let alone Ran'jit's. Before they became Ascians, they were scientists, philosophers, and intellectuals, not warriors. The Ancients were a peaceful people, from what we've seen, living very harmoniously with one another. After becoming Ascians, they encourage people to kill each other, and rarely have to do so themselves.

We've only scratched the surface of of Ran'jit's history, and it's clear he was an important person on the first. He's not no one or nothing - he's basically Batman in terms of reaching the heights of which a human is capable. We, too, are at those heights, as is Zenos. And there will doubtless be other peak humans we'll cross swords with in the future. Expect other mortals to be capable of testing our limits in the future - the game would be pretty lame, otherwise.

I was going with the over all theme of the thread. You know, shonen manga tropes. Of course power levels are silly. I'm simply stating that if Elidibus (who was trying to kill us) couldn't handle us cleanly. How does a regular man like Ranjit have the slightest hope of doing so? Narrative wise, no one comes close to the Ascians in terms of strength, we witness what Emet did as an almost after thought in the creation of Amaurot. He's simply a plot device that follows the same story beats as Zenos from the previous expansion. We fight them both in the same narrative points and they both suffer from being one dimensional. I brought up Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr as they are the strongest dragons we have faced within the main story. A lesser Wyrm shouldn't really be of any consequence junctioned or not if those two are what we go by. So it comes down to the man and he wasn't anything special if tricks are his go to method of fighting. You can even see him try to use the lightning attack on us again and when it doesn't work he can't do anything but slow us down.

As for him being able to kill a Lightwarden. Yeah, he wouldn't be in his current mental state of wanting to lock Minfilia away and letting the world be destroyed if he could and he tried for years as every single one of his defenders has pointed out. As for Minfilia not absorbing the aether, that was the plan to go with if summoning us failed. So yes, it is possible for her to have done it as well. I mean the Scions were right there with us and the light went to us instead. Why wouldn't he just throw bodies at the damn thing and have her sweep in after it was done? Because he couldn't do it. He couldn't do what four people did with an army. He should have tried his tricks, they might have helped. So there is that.

The Echo actually is explained as allowing us to see aetherial shifts in our opponents. That is why you see the aoe markers in fights. Our Echo allows us to see the effect before it happens. That was the whole point of Fordola being able to dodge Lyse and Alisaie's attacks. It also makes you stronger in certain instances such as solo fights, it's called Brilliant Conviction: Breaking limits as only a true Warrior of Light could. Not kidding that's the buff name and description.

Why wouldn't the Ascians be experts at combat? We are not the first set of WoL's to have challenged them and if memory serves, those previous incarnations had even greater backing from Hydaelyn. Elidibus took down three powerful opponents (Lyse, Yugiri, and Hien, who are not slouches btw) at once by himself while in the body of Zenos. I would say he is an expert in almost all forms of combat due to having lived for so long. Take the WoL for instance. How many jobs do you have capped at 80? I'm sure they have a few tucked away as well at whatever maximum is relevant at the time. So Ranjit's 100 years of conflict (being real generous here) count but the Ascians 10,000+ don't?

I highly suspect the Eulmores story and by extension Ranjit's is over before it really began. I want to be wrong here by the by. If i'm not, well that was a waste wasn't it? This last patch he got a mention of how they found his body and how it was such a jarring sight to behold and how hard it will be to enforce security without him around. I worry that he doesn't have any more relevance to the story, which is bull considering he was supposed to be something special but we don't get to really see anything noteworthy from him. Shows up what four times and then dies? Boring.

In conclusion. Why force a loss if the same event will play over and over. You know, we lose, then a friend comes to bail us out. We stalemate the next time we fight. Then we kill them after raid on their base of operations. It's happened twice in back to back expansions. The time for copying and pasting is hopefully done. I am not adverse with having rivals, just please for the love of Hydaelyn. Make them compelling? Emotionless murder princes and suicidal old men aren't really my cup of tea.

It's a problem of power creep. Only one way to go, and if not done correctly ruins everything that has come before. SE should watch that closely.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Well, in our first bout with him, it ends up with us literally helpless at his feet. Following that, we spent the bulk of the remainder of the 5.0 MSQ running away from the guy. The implication is pretty clear that Ran'jit is meant to be more than we can handle.

Charitably, you can say that he's more than we can handle WHILE also protecting our friends (and Minfilia in particular). Folks have also speculated that his sole victory over us was due to a cheap shot, a trick that we would not fall for again. Whatever the case, folks are irked that we have to make excuses at all - in their minds, there's no excuse for a scripted defeat of the WoL, unless we're up against something TRULY impressive, like Zodiark himself.

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Funnily enough, Shonen icons Goku and Vegeta themselves have recently taken losses to cheapshots and dirty tricks. Most notable at the start of the newest Arc where they're both simply knocked out with a powered up taser to the back while in base form. Shows that brute force and overwhelming power was never the only way to take out superior opponents.

While the WoL/D is a very powerful individual, they're still very much a normal being and can be restrained, poisoned, blindsided, knocked out, magicked against there will and all sorts of unconventional tactics.

Also with the WoL/D, I never get the feeling of getting stronger story wise in shadowbringers. In Stormblood we get the feeling of getting stronger by our rematches with Zenos. In Shadwobringers, we don't get that sense of personal strength up until the end, long past and unrelated to Ran'jit. Matter of fact, whenever Ran'jit showed up including when we first meet him, It felt like he was our greatest obstacle to our goals, not the greatest danger.

With regards to this whole Ran'jit "fiasco".

He is in four confrontations, three with our character and one with Thancred.

The first encounter is wave of wave of bad guys and while you have an army fighting with you, you can see that what happened before you went and got minfilia that your character wasn't "fresh". The second encounter involves you going through an ancient temple and right before you fight, your lifeforce is being drained while you puzzle solve ... and you play Indiana Jones after that. The third and final encounter for our character has us at our "strongest" because regardless of what you did the job as you had a healer by your side the entire time you're storming Eulmore until right before the final fight. I'd argue that's what makes the true difference here.

That being the case for the next expansion it would be nice if things weren't quite as "similar" but the way this story unfolded I don't see how they couldn't make what happen happen without changing the ShB story which is epic.

I never got the feeling he was actually strong (aside from the trolley scene), just annoying. I just hated how the story forced us to not fight him, yet constantly showed him jobbing to other characters.

Oh he's gonna charge at us, rematch time? Nope, Exarch paralyzes him and he doesn't even have the balls to against him.
Oh he's fighting us in the temple? Nope, apparently "this is going nowhere" so he gets chained by the viis so we can get the magic seal thing.
Oh he's flying straight at us, we'll resume the fight? Nope, Y'shtola blocks him and he doesn't even crack the barrier unlike Zenos.
Oh it's just me and him, maybe I'll get to yeet him into the pit myself? Nope, Thancred does it.
Oh he survived and he just kicked our trolley aside, time to finally properly kill him because apparently he can just survive bottomless falls thanks to magic dragon? Nope, Thancred (someone who can't even use aether) beats the hell out of him so hard he forces his transformation and he still can't beat Thancred.

I liked Zenos. With him everyone got the same treatment, and he only shows up twice to mess with our plans (not EVERY ZONE). Lyse? All her angry punches blocked with his palm. Y'shtola? Her barrier gets easily broken and she gets a giant gaping wound on the chest. Yugiri? Just swatted away like a fly twice. Not even his own soldiers are safe.

I do find one thing funny about Ran'jit. How he's supposed to be this super experienced GENERAL, yet the eulmoran army is probably the most incompetent foe we ever faced. The adjutant is almost comic relief tier.
At least his death was satisfying. We just kick him into the dirt after we get weakened from absorbing Storge. He gets no recognition, just a single brief glance from Thancred.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Whatever the case, folks are irked that we have to make excuses at all - in their minds, there's no excuse for a scripted defeat of the WoL, unless we're up against something TRULY impressive, like Zodiark himself.

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The first clause of the sentence is exactly my problem. The writers did not, in my opinion, adequately explain how he crushed us so handily in our first bout that is logically consistent with how we defeated him in Eulmore. On its own Round 1 is fine, and like you said the story heavily implies we're constantly on the run from him. Were his final fight as a dungeon boss, it would have been fine too, because so far every story dungeon in ShB has us with our trusts--so we're canonically 4(7?)v1 in that scenario, which would remain logically consistent with what it would take to beat the Ranjit of Fight 1 as he was presented. It would also give Ryne and Thancred the closure that their characters would demand from a foil like Ranjit like I was complaining they didn't get earlier. I would have vastly preferred this route, and would have no problems with the presentation of Ranjit's power this way.

He was instead presented in a 1v1 duel with the WoL after. The story never explained anything along the lines of Ranjit's skills, Thancred never is like "Oh yeah watch out for that lightning strike it's a real shocker;" the WoL isn't present for Ranjit's unveiling of merging with his Familiar. So compared to Round 1, Ranjit not only is stronger, but once more is using a foreign moveset to the WoL, and the WoL is actually (if not unchanged at all) weaker than in Round 1 due to being overburdened with Light. That leaves us with a huge inconsistency, that players are going to feel the need to fill in. "He used a foreign move on the WoL," "He's fought more/longer/harder than WoL," "He's gotten tired and weaker over the course of the journey." There's a place for subtext and letting readers fill in the gap for sure, and maybe that was their intention with Ranjit, but in this case they more or less left us with a blank slate and said "Fill in your reasons why Ranjit rolled over you and friends in Round 1 and you reversed it in Round 4."

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

And which Lightwarden's did we kill on our own? None. They are dungeon bosses and thus one can only assume that, canonically, they required either the present Scions and/or Exarch or a party of fellow WoL's.

Which only had a noticeable impact after absorbing the last Lightwarden.

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WoL still can quite easily beat people that have mastered their jobs for decades (in job quests) while they learned it in weeks/months. Also at the very end with barely any time gone we somehow suddenly are able to defeat him in solo combat. Where are those decades of mastery here?

We defeat Titania and Innocence solo. One of them being the strongest lightwarden. We flee only with the scions to Il Mheg and have no time to collect any adventurers with Titania and Innocence is directly after climbing the mountain with only the scions who are staying back to defeat the other sin eaters. Where did those adventurers come from? (And disappear afterwards to leave us with the enemies)

We already felt the Lightwarden in the woods. It was the first time that we reacted on it and it only got worse after that. So we are when we defeat Ranjit not on 100% of our full potential. Yet beat him..without any direct training against his combat style..and remember that he did not even go full out in the first fight either. Only with Thancred did he truly use his dragon.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

The quest text for the Final Steps of Faith:
Imbued with Hraesvelgr's last sliver of hope, you stand at the forefront of your allies as the last bastion against the raging shade of Nidhogg. Have you the resolve to conquer the great wyrm at the height of his power, or will Ishgard perish in fire and ruin? Here, on the battle-stricken Steps of Faith, your deeds shall decide how the final verse of a thousand-year dirge of grief and vengeance will be sung.

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The lore book also states that we did this solo.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

The lore book also states that we did this solo.

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"With it, the Warrior of Light became Ishgards best and last hope of slaying the rampaging Nidhogg. The great wyrms shade was a fearsome foe, consumed by a thousand years of vengeance. However, the Warrior of Light too was a force to be reckoned with, infused with the might of Hraesvelgr and filled with an otherwordly determination. Thus empowered, he subduesd Nidhoggs shade and restored Estiniens to his original form."

Technically it doesn't actually state that you were alone. It can certainly be read that way, but it's not definitive.

I don't buy any of that as it's mostly done to preserve the story. References to other players is often done as 'friends' or 'mercenaries' in the few occasions NPC's mention the need to sign up for a group-duty. They obviously can't be called Warriors of Light as we are 'the' Warrior of Light and the star of the show, with that one exception in the ShB finale with Catty'G summoning 'champions from beyond the rift', which is basically another deflective method of saying 'other WoL's that aren't 'the' WoL' because 'you' are the one and only WoL'. In short, while the game may maintain the illusion that this is all our doing by ourselves and we've got no help whatsoever other than the Scions and various NPC's, it clearly isn't the case.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

"With it, the Warrior of Light became Ishgards best and last hope of slaying the rampaging Nidhogg. The great wyrms shade was a fearsome foe, consumed by a thousand years of vengeance. However, the Warrior of Light too was a force to be reckoned with, infused with the might of Hraesvelgr and filled with an otherwordly determination. Thus empowered, he subduesd Nidhoggs shade and restored Estiniens to his original form."

Technically it doesn't actually state that you were alone. It can certainly be read that way, but it's not definitive.

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When the same source (the lore book) takes care to make it very obvious when we have someone with us (by saying that we are not alone and calling out the units of adventurers) then yes this is for me evidence that we are alone. Otherwise why would that example be different and not mention them even though they are there?

@Rope: Tell me then how it would make sense in canon that we have "friends" with us against Titania? We flee from Ranjit (a solo fight with no other adventurers near us) into a country that is protected by the pixies. We do a dungeon (again with the scions) and then make our way through the country and to the different tribes again without any friends. Then everything goes bad fast! Ranjit is there. The others go back to buy us time...and suddenly the WoL who barely even knows anyone on this shards calls in some random 7 other people that arrive there to help us? How would they arrive fast enough? How would we even know them? And why are they gone afterwards instead of flying on the Amaros with us to defeat Ranjit?

How would Innocence make sense? We go at this again only with the scions. How did they get there? Why are they gone afterwards when they could have at least tried to stop Emet? It makes imo no sense to have them there.

Hades is different. This is probably the only in canon fight that is done with 7 other people in shadowbringers. Why? Because we see them being summoned by the exarch in a cutscene before the trial itself (so in story confirmation of it happening) and them being not there at the end also makes sense because I doubt that such a spell can last forever and we did have quite the hard fight. So before they could have helped us more they puffed out of existence. There you have a group fight that makes complete sense and is part of the cutscenes.

With most of the other instances you only have these people come in while in the dungeon/trial/raid and have them disappear afterwards without any reason too.

If the lore writers come out one day and say that this was all done with groups then I have to accept that I saw it wrong. But the lore book does support my view (at least the first one, dont have the second one) and at least the logic makes only much sense if we are alone or with the scions.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

When the same source (the lore book) takes care to make it very obvious when we have someone with us (by saying that we are not alone and calling out the units of adventurers) then yes this is for me evidence that we are alone. Otherwise why would that example be different and not mention them even though they are there?

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Brevity. There just isn't any real need to mention it explicitly every single time, it's enough to set the precedent.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Brevity. There just isn't any real need to mention it explicitly every single time, it's enough to set the precedent.

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The thing is the lore book was not written overtime its one edition.

If they wanted to make a precedent why only mention them at the end of 2.0? Why is there no mentioning with Ifrit or any other primals? If these are not done solo then not saying that from the start and only later mentioning it sounds strange.

Yet they go out of their way to make sure to mention, in quite a lot examples, the people that are with us with their names. So in most situations they have no problem with taking up space to mention that x scions are with us and then also have no problem to write when we have a group (including the sentence that it was on the wish of the city states with steps of faith) but for the whole rest they are using singular only?

I am sorry but that is no precedent for me. A precedent would be if they mention at the very start that the WoL is a leader of a group of adventurers that came to Eorzea and how they slew Ifrit. Then afterwards maybe you could get away with only saying that its him. But they did not do that. They make it clear that the WoL is the only survivor of bahamut (so no we had no group of surviving adventurers with us) then say how it was the echo that save the adventurer (singular) then write that Ifrit tries to slaughter the adventurer (singular) and then was killed by the adventurer (singular). This adventurer (singular) was then seen as an eikon slayer by the people and he (singular) got more request for aid.

So the precdent is that if no group is mentioned than its solo because they started it up with showing it all solo.

And they go out of their way to establish that more. With Ravana they went out of their way to say that we and Ysayle go there together and after she failed we take it up. No mention of a group. They make a great point that we go to the ARF alone! So many examples that are done with only a solo person in mind and yet this should still count as a group?

The group only came up three times in this! With the 2.0 MSQ dungeons, with the Garlean soldier before that and with Steps of faith. After the 2.0 dungeons they drop it again to "singular" adventurer. But suddenly with steps of faith its a group again. Why? If you say that they only need to set one precedent and it counts for stuff that happened before the precedent and for it afterwards, why make sure to mention the group there again? Why not write it like the rest too?

No it only really makes sense that the precedent is that we do it solo and the exceptions which have to be written down are being in groups.

My view isn't that every encounter ever in a party is 100% canonically done in a party. It's that I think the default is that if you're in a party in game then you're in a party in the story. I've arrived at this conclusion for a few reasons.

One, when explicitly mentioned either way, mentioning a party is more common than saying you did it solo.

Two, FFXIV often takes time to create a lore excuse for its gameplay mechanics. You use linkshell devices to chat, you learn to swim from an NPC, teleporting is a real spell and teleport destinations even come up as a plot point. So it makes sense that when you require a party, you really do require a party.

Three, the hero of an FF game/JRPG/most RPGs in general is typically the leader of a group. You're often treat like a great warrior in your own right, but you're also just as often treat like a great hero who inspires all those around you.

You're free to have your own view of course, doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game, like I'm sure my view doesn't affect yours.
But a line like "the adventurer went to face X" doesn't convince me he/she went to face them alone, anymore than someone saying "Genghis Khan invaded China" would make me picture the leader of the Mongols leaping over the Great Wall all by himself.

We know we have adventurer friends, we know the threats we face are often dangerous, sometimes potentially world ending, it just doesn't make sense to me that the default is we tell the lads to stay home while we go sort it all out on our own.

Edit: I feel I should mention though, that my mention of the WoLs party was initially in relation to facing Ran'jit. However often you think we did stuff solo vs. in a party overall, it's mentioned over and over that we have a party in Stormblood, we basically face Ran'jit without our mates after an expansion of having them help us with nearly everything.

Yet for other parts we do accept that gameplay is different from the story. For example we only do dungeons once. Every other run is pure gameplay. So if we get a quest ingame that says that we have to run dungeon x again (for example with the relic quests) than I am quite sure that most of us would accept that this is pure gameplay and that at most we remember stuff or we run in story through a very different dungeon (since bosses dont respawn). Yet when it comes to simple quest dialogue (that is in the quest menue itself) we suddenly have to accept that this is 100% done in story?

The text in dialogue is also really different between languages. In german Alisaie and Lyse tell us to go to defeat Susano (alone) while they hold the others back while as far as I have heard the english version makes a joke about group content here? So which one is right?

What about the trust system now? We in canon have the scions with us in dungeons. So if you use that canon system you dont have others with you and the scions also perfectly fit into the cutscenes before an instance and afterwards. Yet somehow you still can use the conten with randoms. Doesnt that show that the random part is not canon? None of the scions ever mention other adventurers with us and they behave always before and afterwards af if it was only with them. Isnt that another hint hat maybe the "party up"feature is gameplay only? Especially when they went out of their way in that very same expansion to show how these 7 other randoms appear against Hades.

The lore book (unlike the game) is purely written in an in lore view. These are scholar of Eorzea that wrote it. There are no gamplay mechanics and other stuff to use here. And in that book they make sure to give a difference. From the very start. So even when we were still a simple adventurer and not special it was already written like we were alone. I also doubt that scholars would forget all the other important eikon slayers that are as strong or nearly as strong as the WoL. Also we are not really a leader the whole time. Yes we are that way when we go against the Garleans but otherwise there is no hint that we would necessarily be the lead. Again we start out as a truly unknown individual. And even there it was only us who got mentioned. And later these "scholars" do point out other people like Alphinaud, Ysayle, Aymeric, Estinien. If the WoL was THE big hero which only ever needed to be mentioned (while the rest of the assumed group is completely forgotten..) then why are those mentioned?

The fun thing is that shadowbringers probably falls more into the category of the other FF games with having a group. Because in those other FF games you might have a leader but especially in the newer ones the rest of the party is always important and does not somehow just disappear as soon as a "dungeon" or "boss fight" is over. The scions in this expansion fit with that. The assumed unnamed groups not so much..they are not even noticed by the scions. If a party is with the WoL the whole time through all those primals and dungeons..well it sucks to be them because unlike Genghis Khan soldiers who were nothing but fodder, those individuals should be nearly equal as the WoL and thus important and known individuals..that they would be threated even worse than NPC Nr. x would be quite bad..especially since it would not show a good light on our character.

About Ranjit:

The problem with trying to say that we lost because we normally are not able to beat up enemies without others (which is wrong because we also have quite the solo instances in story and with job quests) cant hold up because at the end we still defeated him solo..after a very short amount of time on the first (especially compared to his decades of training..)and while we were under the heavy influence of the Light which did not power us up..we have learned no new tricks that could beat his training style..and the argument from some that he got no break really does not make sense to me. The WoL had to do much more the whole time and yet we still found time to rest. I doubt that Ranjit was active 24/7 until the end. He was the whole time in a much better position because he was the hunter and we the prey. So no that is imo also not a good argument how we suddenly were able to beat him.

I would have preferred they do something to defy conventions so far. I would have loved it when we face the Eulmore general that he's this great esteemed warrior and we brutally crush him. Then he goes mad trying to get stronger than us, only to be defeated each time until we finish him off. =/

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I would have preferred they do something to defy conventions so far. I would have loved it when we face the Eulmore general that he's this great esteemed warrior and we brutally crush him. Then he goes mad trying to get stronger than us, only to be defeated each time until we finish him off. =/

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Well, they did kind of do something like that with the "WE GO TOGETHER" guy, the one in Doma castle. I can't remember his name, but we fought him multiple times and he kept coming back only to be defeated each time.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

Well, they did kind of do something like that with the "WE GO TOGETHER" guy, the one in Doma castle. I can't remember his name, but we fought him multiple times and he kept coming back only to be defeated each time.

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Oh, that comic relief character. I'd rather have someone we can take seriously....

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I would have preferred they do something to defy conventions so far. I would have loved it when we face the Eulmore general that he's this great esteemed warrior and we brutally crush him.

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That wouldn't be 'defying conventions' since that's exactly what the Warrior of Light does in the vast majority of confrontations.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

The text in dialogue is also really different between languages. In german Alisaie and Lyse tell us to go to defeat Susano (alone) while they hold the others back while as far as I have heard the english version makes a joke about group content here? So which one is right?

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I'd say Japanese. Failing that then I'd say English, as the English translation lead is also co-lead world and lore developer.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

What about the trust system now? We in canon have the scions with us in dungeons. So if you use that canon system you dont have others with you and the scions also perfectly fit into the cutscenes before an instance and afterwards. Yet somehow you still can use the conten with randoms. Doesnt that show that the random part is not canon? None of the scions ever mention other adventurers with us and they behave always before and afterwards af if it was only with them. Isnt that another hint hat maybe the "party up"feature is gameplay only? Especially when they went out of their way in that very same expansion to show how these 7 other randoms appear against Hades.

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Doesn't the Trust system back up my idea that we mainly run party stuff in actual parties? As soon as the story moves to a place where our previous adventurer friends can't realistically come with us we get a whole system for running them with our NPC friends instead.

The Scions have mentioned other adventurers before, they only really address us in cutscenes though because the other players have gone.
I can't think of a single time that we're shown with other players outside of an instance where we are actually with other players at that time, and they've moved away from putting the cutscenes inside the instance itself after the end of ARR.

If they remade Meridianum and Praetorium to be more in line with normal end of story dungeons, then despite the fact it's canon we had help, all our adventurer friends would disappear from the cutscenes.
I suspect the game just isn't set up to remember who you were with so they can be slotted into scenes when they're not there.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

The lore book (unlike the game) is purely written in an in lore view. These are scholar of Eorzea that wrote it. There are no gamplay mechanics and other stuff to use here. And in that book they make sure to give a difference.

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If anything, doesn't that make it less reliable? If the lore book is written from in-character in-game perspectives then I don't think we can take it as gospel.

Whatever you think of the party situation and other adventurers, I think we can both agree these Eorzean scholars weren't there with us.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

Well, they did kind of do something like that with the "WE GO TOGETHER" guy, the one in Doma castle. I can't remember his name, but we fought him multiple times and he kept coming back only to be defeated each time.

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Yeah that one was horrible. It made no sense to me that we would let him run away and seeing on what happened with him at the end it would have been much nicer to just have ended him earlier..

I honestly wish that Ranjit was someone we could have had beaten but did not because we needed to protect the others thus we took hits or made sure to distract him which means we could not fight him fully. Thus later when we are alone we can go full out and defeat him.

@Jandor: I am putting your quotes and my answer behind spoiler. Kinda getting a bit big.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Doesn't the Trust system back up my idea that we mainly run party stuff in actual parties? As soon as the story moves to a place where our previous adventurer friends can't realistically come with us we get a whole system for running them with our NPC friends instead.

The Scions have mentioned other adventurers before, they only really address us in cutscenes though because the other players have gone.

If anything, doesn't that make it less reliable? If the lore book is written from in-character in-game perspectives then I don't think we can take it as gospel.

Whatever you think of the party situation and other adventurers, I think we can both agree these Eorzean scholars weren't there with us.

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Why would SE care if it makes sense to have a group with us or not? If there are truly groups with us at each primal then most of those fights (and in game story) dont make any sense either. And its not like we do have dungeons and trials without the scions either.

So what is canon then? If I run the stuff with only the scions then its kinda canon that only the scions are there (and it makes sense) but you can still run it with randoms and as you said, it makes no sense that random adventurers are there with us. Doesnt that kinda hint that the gameplay part of searching for groups is just that: Gameplay? And when we truly needed a group in lore we get a whole cutscene with the exarch summoning them before we even go into the group search.

Also why would the other players go? I mean we are talking in story about other adventurers like us that are living in that world and that have risked their lifes and suddenly no matter the situation they just disappear into thin air? Why is nobody shocked or sad that somehow we are the only one getting out after the ARF if we went there with 7 other people? (And how they even got there)

The big questions are always: Who are those strongh people that are able to keep up with the WoL? Why are those not with the scions even though they have the echo? How are they able to be where its necessary even when its impossible for them to be there? Why are they gone afterwards even though there is no way for them to escape? Why is not a single NPC mentioning them, seeing them as heros, calling their names? Why does the WoL never ever seemingly care about them?

Now we are going to just put the lore book down as being canon because its written in an ingame view? No I dont, sry. Its still written by the lore writers of these games and they did think about what they want to include or not. Just because they have written that from a certain view does not make something suddenly wrong or false.

And again: If those are from the view of the people why would they exclude the other heros? At the beginning we were a nobody..why would they then already ignore the other heros at this point? We were all nobodies back then, so the WoL does not have a reason to be special. So if we had others with us at Ifrit, Garuda, Titan and more why are those not mentioned from the start? But later with steps of faith where we are famous they thought about mentioning at least that we had help. It does not make sense to me that all the writing is wrong in the lore book and it should be group for each one of them but somehow the writers decided to only include that with three examples which are further down the book..and one example even having these adventurers with us in cutscenes.

In the end I still wait for a good explanation for all these adventurers with the primals..because if they are fighting with us means that each cutscene before and after the fight (as in story cutscenes) are false, because in realitiy we are not there standing just with us and the scions. There are random 7 other people there too that are ignored by everyone..oh and in some cases four of those people will stand back and watch us fight through a dungeon only to come in at the trial fight afterwards. The very same people will also stand back and disappear in solo fights or when we really needed help.

So all that we see is wrong, including the lore book itself.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I suspect the game just isn't set up to remember who you were with so they can be slotted into scenes when they're not there.

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It most definitely is not. The game doesnt even "remember" you to slot you into scenes. If you go back and watch any old scene using the Unending Journey, itll show you as you are currently equipped and dressed regardless of what class or glamour you were using the first time through.

Just played through it myself...

Yeah its just Dumb as hell. It isn't even believable in the context of the story they're trying to tell. This general is supposedly given up on even attempting to fight them anymore because its inevitable humanity will be defeated.

YET... if he really was that strong and as strong as he was portrayed in that fight... there's no way in hell he'd have the need to give up because he could go do it all himself. It would be pointless for the Corrupted Light to even try. Even if they were only dissipated he's far too strong to ever be beaten by any of them.

It was so totally unbelievable I was just going... really now? Seriously?

And that doesn't even get into the question of... well is he THAT strong he could just whollop Zenos too? Because that's how Strong he was.

I bet the answer is no.... so how in the hell can he just whollop the guy who beat Zenos.

This doesn't even remotely fit even into the storyline they've been telling at this point. It makes the entire thing just seem sooo fake.

EDIT: And this doesn't even take into account stripping away player power and completely demeaning a the entire character you've written up to this point about the "Warrior of Light" archetype.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That wouldn't be 'defying conventions' since that's exactly what the Warrior of Light does in the vast majority of confrontations.

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Not really. With Zenos and the Eulmore general who was so boring I don't even remember his name. We get stomped by them repeatedly until finally being strong enough to finish them off later. It's happened twice so far. Next time, make the big rival character one that can't defeat us but isn't comic relief.

I don't mind there being characters that can beat us, but I feel Fordola was better handled in her final fight than Zenos and Ran'jit.

I don't mind that Zenos beat us. I don't mind that he beat us twice. I mind that he beat us twice effortlessly and then we're able to fight him at the end for no apparent reason other than 'lol level 70' and 'it's the climax so now you can fight the villain for realsies.' If we MUST have villains curbstomp us, at least tie how we defeat them later into the story somehow. With Fordola's psychic fake echo powers we used a device to disorient her for example. With Zenos and Ran'jit it just feels lazy and cheap that one moment they kick our butts and later when the script says we need to win they're beaten.

Don't just make it a numbers game of vague 'power levels.' Make how we prepare for the rematch to face these foes part of the story. More 'how do we overcome this ability' and less 'gain levels so you can hit harder.'

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

YET... if he really was that strong and as strong as he was portrayed in that fight... there's no way in hell he'd have the need to give up because he could go do it all himself. It would be pointless for the Corrupted Light to even try. Even if they were only dissipated he's far too strong to ever be beaten by any of them.

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I assume you're talking about Ran'jit (not sure what Gaius has to do with him, since they are on completely separate worlds) since you're talking about fighting the Lightwardens and causing them to dissipate and all...

He was almost certainly not the only one that had the strength to defeat the Lightwardens...but that wasn't the issue with fighting them. Remember Titania? They were a powerful pixie, counted as their leader and empowered by the other fae, and one that defeated a Lightwarden...and was corrupted in doing so.

So what do you think would happen with Ran'jit if he went around defeating them? The same thing that happened to Titania.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

I assume you're talking about Ran'jit (not sure what Gaius has to do with him, since they are on completely separate worlds) since you're talking about fighting the Lightwardens and causing them to dissipate and all...

He was almost certainly not the only one that had the strength to defeat the Lightwardens...but that wasn't the issue with fighting them. Remember Titania? They were a powerful pixie, counted as their leader and empowered by the other fae, and one that defeated a Lightwarden...and was corrupted in doing so. So what do you think would happen with Ran'jit if he went around defeating them? The same thing that happened to Titania.

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Well that WOULD work...
...if not for the fact JUST a few minutes prior to that.... when we defeated one in the story there is a long time before they disperse their light, so Ranjit had ample time to get away. In the beginning I'm sure they didn't know that (Titania), but they'd obviously learned after that as the they tell you they'd killed them before but they only dissipate and reform in time.

So again totally makes no sense.

I brought up Gaius because supposedly he was this uber powered being that could wipe the floor with you... so magically and mystically he's the same "uber" bad guy... that defeats you in the same cheezeball way.

Ranjit is completely not believeable in the context of the story they are trying to tell, and just makes the whole segment cheezy as hell.

EDIT: Mean to say ZENOS not Gaius

We only ever fight Gaius at one point in the story though, and when we do, we defeat him for good. He serves a very different narrative function then Ranjit does.

The first time we run into him, he has his super-weapon with him that just gobbled up the three primals we killed. We're just by ourselves with Alphinaud and Cid, neither of whom are good in a fight. In addition, Gaius is holding a lot of the Scions captive at that point in time. We have no back-up, so we retreat without fighting him.

The next time we run into him, we've got the three Grand Companies backing us up and quite a few other adventurers too. We also defeat him twice in a row. Once when it's just us verses him and again when he's in control of his super-weapon. He also looses a lot differently then... just about about anyone who looses against us. He's almost proud he lost against someone who actually proved they deserved to win and basically gives us his last words of advice which... turn out to be surprisingly good descriptions of what happens later on.

And then he ends up doing what we do (hunting Ascians) in a location we have a hard time getting to that he is much more familiar with.

The fun thing with Gaius. In one of the job quest we fight someone that is said to be even stronger than him and we defeat him solo.

Its just a bit annoying how different the "power levels" are..A good rival could have been Ardbert as a WoD but instead we defeat them quite fast and afterwards they are on our side again. A rival that is there for a longer time and that grows with us (and we see the growth) and that we either later truly defeat or maybe only tie with them makes it imo interesting.

A guy that comes out of nowhere that just stomps us (and then the instanced battle cant be lost until that certain point happens..) and then soon after that we stomp him is not fun imo. Zenos might have also been a rival if we knew about him a bit before Stormblood and if they gave him at least a bit more development. But no he was meant to be the true evil character with no real complexity to him (such a character can be interesting for one story line..but not for longer) that now has overstayed his welcome. He gets power ups even worse than us (being outside his body suddenly makes him even more like an Ascian?) and seems to be built as the big bad at the end..not a great rival at all..just someone that will either get away through some plot means or that will somehow become even stronger than us until we again defeat him..

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

If we MUST have villains curbstomp us, at least tie how we defeat them later into the story somehow. With Fordola's psychic fake echo powers we used a device to disorient her for example. With Zenos and Ran'jit it just feels lazy and cheap that one moment they kick our butts and later when the script says we need to win they're beaten.

Don't just make it a numbers game of vague 'power levels.' Make how we prepare for the rematch to face these foes part of the story. More 'how do we overcome this ability' and less 'gain levels so you can hit harder.'

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So Zenos is a special case. He is presented as basically living for a good fight, and he decides we might get strong enough to give him one. Our first fight we do just enough damage to him to intrigue him. The second fight we show that we're still improving. So we storm the gates of Ala Mhigo Castle with an army and a group of fellow adventurers, and he decides to show us his new trick. He fuses with a primal to fight us. Now this next part isnt really explained well in the game, but theres a theory as to why this was a very bad idea for him. Against a general, our power of the Echo gives us a little ability to dodge attacks and not much more(being immune to tempering doesnt matter for this fight). But against a primal we can also use the Blessing of Light, which makes us much more powerful and deadly.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I don't mind there being characters that can beat us, but I feel Fordola was better handled in her final fight than Zenos and Ran'jit.

I don't mind that Zenos beat us. I don't mind that he beat us twice. I mind that he beat us twice effortlessly and then we're able to fight him at the end for no apparent reason other than 'lol level 70' and 'it's the climax so now you can fight the villain for realsies.' If we MUST have villains curbstomp us, at least tie how we defeat them later into the story somehow. With Fordola's psychic fake echo powers we used a device to disorient her for example. With Zenos and Ran'jit it just feels lazy and cheap that one moment they kick our butts and later when the script says we need to win they're beaten.

Don't just make it a numbers game of vague 'power levels.' Make how we prepare for the rematch to face these foes part of the story. More 'how do we overcome this ability' and less 'gain levels so you can hit harder.'

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We were able to beat Zenos at the end of 3.0 because he was daft enough to merge with a primal. Stomping primals is what we do