The arms race between BLM and SMN

The title of this thread and the OP are perpetuating the common narrative that BLM and SMN have to be fighting each other to be some sort of top dog, which is completely off-base and ultimately pointless.

There is no rule that says these two classes must compete for a raid spot, yet many people just assume this. BLM was ridiculously good with the release of 5.0 and now SMN has joined it in 5.1 with RDM getting some love too, which makes them desirable in any number of compositions alongside Melee classes that are doing comparable damage.

If there's any actual issue worth mentioning with the 5.1 buffs, it's that physical ranged roles are now exclusively by themselves in that bottom tier of the dps gap that has existed since 5.0, with very little reason to be so far behind.

Ultimately, threads like this will do nothing but fuel players who only have a stake in parsing and just want to see their favorite job doing the most damage.

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Originally Posted by TwiibieTwuu

Let's not nerf classes. Let's just buff those that fall behind.

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I'd like to remind you of Heavensward, where they did this. It led to Bard and Machinist completely dominating the Casters for two tiers.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'd like to remind you of Heavensward, where they did this. It led to Bard and Machinist completely dominating the Casters for two tiers.

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Buffing underpowered jobs up to a point of balance and over-buffs are not the same thing, and it seems rather clear which was intended in what you're quoting.

Isn't this the way it's supposed to be? Every time SMN was weaker I would always hear the raid world talk about how they would only exclusively take BLM over SMN. The ability to raise didn't help SMN get into the majority of groups. If anything I took that as they didn't need someone who could raise, they needed people who could help clear.

Now that SMN has closed the gap, all the sudden BLM players are starting to act like they are threatened. Shouldn't each job be more balanced around the fact that any combination of jobs can clear Savage or whatever, with about the same ease? If RDM gets a bit more love they can also join the fray of taking the magic dps spot, no? The same thing is happening with melee, right? If they just buff range, they too can easily have a spot and maybe we can end this crap of raiders and parse lovers always saying they can't join a raid because the job they love is too weak. The utility skills don't seem to matter as much as clear rates.

I can only base this off of comments from in-game and Reddit boards. I don't even do savage content but I do like to do EX content. But the crazy thing is while farming that as a DNC, even if we cleared the run, people would always talk about how much easier the run would be if I picked a different job. SMN use to be even weaker but at least now I won't have to hear that comment as much (BLM is still seen as top dps to most in-game).

SMN was the one job that got me into this game because it's fun for me but it gets trying at times when they make us so weak to where we don't even exist. Now they helped us out and of course, we got people asking them to nerf us when I honestly don't think they will nerf us right if they choose to. I rather they just buff other jobs that actually need love, which would be range in my opinion. BLM players still seem to dominate whenever I get partnered with them so I don't think they are in trouble at all.

SMN is fine. The only reason its parsing above BLM is because of the pet normalization on damage. Which is to say that the standard egi or garuda and ifrit are now not entirely pointless and useless to have out other than weaving in the damage from there abilities that were ogcd. Nothing across any of the actual hard cast rotation abilities changed.

tstu; Pets on a pet class no longer suck. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by AmurT

Don't get me wrong, both are still strong to the point raid compositions are starting to go double casters, but when you look at the numbers, they clearly scream that SMN was overturned. Or maybe that's just me being delusional? On the subject of job balance, physical ranged are also too weak for no reason with all 3 sitting at the bottom of DPS charts along with RDM.

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Well, maybe we are both delusional because I honestly didn't feel like my SMN was overpowering my BLM. When I played around with both on my other character, it felt like they were about the same to me but then again I don't have official data or anything so I can only be based on the feeling of it. I honestly felt like I was doing more damage single target on BLM and SMN was doing a bit more for AoE but that was questionable since BLM has strong AoE.

As for the utility thing with raise and devotion, from my experience, no one seemed to care about those especially when BLM was a freakish powerhouse. Or at least I never hear people happily choosing an SMN over BLM just because of raise and devotion. But that's just from my end of the spectrum. And if RDM gets boosted to do more, why in the world would you take SMN over RDM if raise is so important. SMN has to have enough power since it's basically in the middle. I'm not saying it needs to overpower BLM but it definitely cant be pathetically weak. People should be able to pick up any job without constantly being locked out of certain content just because of their job is pretty much a waste of space.

I'm not arguing with you just stating my opinion. As I said, it's not like I have data to back this so take it with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by AmurT

So at this point, what point is there in bringing BLM over SMN?

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This is the main thing. It's not as bad now with the new savage loot system, but there are a lot of players that incorrectly think you need to have two melee. With one caster spot, would you rather take a chance and get a BLM that makes the fight a few seconds shorter, or a SMN that can prevent a wipe and save minutes if the situation requires it?

If there are still issues after the SMN nerf in 5.2, they should look at Raise. Either give BLM a modified Raise (regular would be OP with Triplecast and UI mana regen), give all DPS Raise (role action with long cooldown) or take it away from all DPS. Last one is unlikely as it would put more pressure on healers and increase difficulty (time required).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Buffing underpowered jobs up to a point of balance and over-buffs are not the same thing, and it seems rather clear which was intended in what you're quoting.

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They were trying to buff an "underpowered job to the point of balance" as you point. It lead to them both being overpowered.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

They were trying to buff an "underpowered job to the point of balance" as you point. It lead to them both being overpowered.

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And? Does that mean we should never again attempt to balance jobs, for fear of... not balancing jobs? Apply a point, please.

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Originally Posted by plamya

SMN is okay. SE need to buff BLM and RDM instead of nerfing SMN.

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If you do this you'll have to also buff every single physical ranged DPS again since they already struggle with the current balance. No more buff arms races please. Just nerf the broken class instead of introducing dozens of changes across several jobs just to deal with a single one that's op.

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Originally Posted by plamya

SMN is okay. SE need to buff BLM and RDM instead of nerfing SMN.

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^ An object example of power creep, if anyone was looking for one.