Seeds of 7.0 and on?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

About your pictures: Well Hydaelyn and Zodiark also look the same on the cave paintings (either because the ones drawing it wanted them to look the same or those summoning her are a bit lazy)

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That may be her inherent ability to divide stuff.

That is also why I can see Hydaelyn as an amendment to Zoidark's concept.
two sides same coin.
It seems to me like the most effective used of the limited creation energy in Hydaelyn's creation.

That red glow on Zoidark, makes me think Zoidark was/is infected by the "red flame". That lead to Hydaelyn forced to sunder Zoidark to save the planet from the infected Zoidark

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Originally Posted by Alleo

It is interesting that they look much more different here than in the drawings, so I wonder if that is the look of them being inactive?

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Look at hydaelyn's chest
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...4a698f9b17.jpg

I seen a blue crystal like shape there. While the 1st image of hydaelyn has arms crossed over the blue crystal like shape the base is still visible.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...8c7acf71ad.jpg
it looks like Zoidark has one here too not blue mind.

It may have something to do with one of the other possible change to the governing laws Zoidark made.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...839c7d9280.jpg
Aether crystallized is stable.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I'm not sure where you drew this conclusion? From where I've been reading (and discussing keep in mind this isn't the lore forum but linkshells, forum posts talking with others in game...) most agree the first 2 were voluntary, and it was the third where the problem occurred? Can you clarify?

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Yes most do agree the if they watched the cutscenes the first two were voluntary.

I'll clarify with an example

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Hythlodaeus tells us that when Hydaelyn was summoned, it was her own summoners who died to "fuel" her. When Zoidark was summoned, his summoners sacrificed other people to "fuel" him.

There's also a good chance that Zoidark was influenced by the people dying to fuel him who might not have known what the Concept behind Zoidark actually was. The people who died to fuel Hydaelyn were the very people who came up with her Concept, so the odds of her Concept getting influence by some other desire is a lot less.

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That post has 5 likes at the moment so I can only assume that those few are of like mind on the subject.


>_< I still need to get to that monster post by Mornyr

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Originally Posted by fay2

That may be her inherent ability to divide stuff.

That post has 5 likes at the moment so I can only assume that those few are of like mind on the subject.

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I think you're misinterpreting that particular post. It's not saying they were unwillingly volunteering. The post to me can be interpreted that the people summoning (the major 3 unsundered) may have put in a concept or idea that they (the ones sacrificing) did not know about - whether there was malice behind it is yet to be concretely revealed as it seems Emet was earnest in his ideals with a flawed Supremacist mentality (how he views the other newer races and only wanted his back). We already know creation magic can involve stray thoughts. The difference being is that Hydaelyn was due to others sacrificing themselves to create and that concept does lie with those who sacrificed. That doesn't mean however, that a stray thought or concept may also make her flawed in the same way - after all the road to hell is almost always paved with good intentions :P But that's for another argument.

To clarify my own post... Three of the people who summoned Zoidark are still alive as of the start of Shadowbringers. Emet-Selch, Lahabrea, and Elidibus. They were part of the Convocation of Thirteen that came up with Zoidark's concept and summoned him with aether donated to them by half of the surviving Ancient population. So somehow, the people who summoned Zoidark all survived summoning him. This confirms it is possible to create a concept and use aether other then the concept creator's aether to fuel it. It also means the Ascians can tell us what the Concept behind Zoidark is since... they're actually alive to explain it to us. And they could all be Tempered by him.

None of the people who summoned Hydaelyn live past her summoning. All their aether went into fueling the concept they came up with. Unlike with Zoidark, no one is around to tell us what the Concept behind Hydaelyn actually is. The best everyone has been able to do is guess what Hydaelyn's Concept is, based on what they saw her do (fight Zoidark, Sunder him and the Star, become the new will of the Star). The death of Hydaelyn's Summoners also means they would have been dead long before Hydaelyn would be able to Temper them (if Hydaelyn can in fact do that).


Tangential to all of that is what we have known for a long time about Primal Summoning, particularly since HW. The "will" behind the people involved in summoning a Primal effects what that Primal is like. Titan summoned by the Kobalds collectively has different motivations then Titan summoned by just Ga Bu. And both of those are based on the same Concept, it's just two different versions of it. However, both versions are just as much the "Titan" Concept as the the other version is. Even the Ancients themselves tell us how getting distracted while Creating a Concept can change what that concept is like (Creating a Lion and getting distracted by a Hawk gives the Lion Concept hawk wings.).

So you've got Zoidark, the Concept. Which is getting summoned by people who have watched their entire world be destroyed around them by their nightmares come to life through their own Creation Magics. And they're using the aether of a population that has also gone through that. I think it's very probable that the Zoidark Concept gets... distorted by all the fears and desires of the people summoning it to be not quite what they planned the Concept to be. Kind like how you can have two primal Titans that are both Titan, with different motivations.

Hydaelyn's summoning conditions are a lot more stable then Zoidark's are. Or at least, the state of the Star is a lot more stable. By the time Hydaelyn is summoned, Zoidark has stopped the Calamity and rejuvenated the Star. Hydaelyn is Created in an environment that is most likely a lot less... frantic... then the one Zoidark was Created in. Zoidark was summoned to fix the Star right now. Hydaelyn was summoned to mitigate a problem that could happen in the future. And Hydaelyn is ultimately summoned for much more philosophical reasons then Zoidark was summoned.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

To clarify my own post... Three of the people who summoned Zoidark are still alive as of the start of Final Fantasy XIV.

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Fixed it for you. Lahabrea is dead by the end of Heavensward at earliest, Stormblood at latest.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

They were part of the Convocation of Thirteen.

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I know you mean "The Convocation of Fourteen that was down to 13 members", and this is more a minor nitpick than anything, but I don't think the name of the group changed even with them down a member.

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None of the people who summoned Hydaelyn live past her summoning. All their aether went into fueling the concept they came up with.

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To be fair, this seems more like an assumption based on what Hythlodaeus says. We have no concrete proof that ALL of those behind the summoning sacrificed their aether to her. For example, if our Ancient self was part of that group, wouldn't our souls also be used as fuel for Her? But here our character exists, 8 times rejoined. So either we didn't sacrifice ourselves in the summoning, or we weren't part of the group.

Agree with the rest of your post though, but at the same time, while Zodiark's summoning could have been influenced by fear, we still have no proof that he was indeed different then imagined.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

f our Ancient self was part of that group, wouldn't our souls also be used as fuel for Her? But here our character exists, 8 times rejoined. So either we didn't sacrifice ourselves in the summoning, or we weren't part of the group.

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Or Hydaelyn wasn't designed to work like like Zoidark does. As far as I can tell, there's nothing saying that Primal's can't expend the aether used to power them. Just that it's usually not something they naturally want to do. However, we already know Hydaelyn is someplace that is constantly receiving and expunging aether (lifestream/underworld) all by itself.

I can see Hydaelyn's summoners looking at Zoidark and then making a Concept that doesn't have his same "hoard all the souls he can" impulses... or a primal that values keeping people alive more... all you'd need would be a Primal with "Rebirth" or something tied to it's concept and it might decide to let the original souls powering it go once it's got enough new ones. And then just repeat that...

I agree with MrThinker.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Or Hydaelyn wasn't designed to work like like Zoidark does. As far as I can tell, there's nothing saying that Primal's can't expend the aether used to power them. Just that it's usually not something they naturally want to do. However, we already know Hydaelyn is someplace that is constantly receiving and expunging aether (lifestream/underworld) all by itself.

I can see Hydaelyn's summoners looking at Zoidark and then making a Concept that doesn't have his same "hoard all the souls he can" impulses... or a primal that values keeping people alive more... all you'd need would be a Primal with "Rebirth" or something tied to it's concept and it might decide to let the original souls powering it go once it's got enough new ones. And then just repeat that...

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And whose souls would she eat? Unknowing souls of the dead? Would not that be against their will? In that case she would be worse than Zodiark who kept souls of willing sacrifices.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

To be fair, this seems more like an assumption based on what Hythlodaeus says. We have no concrete proof that ALL of those behind the summoning sacrificed their aether to her. For example, if our Ancient self was part of that group, wouldn't our souls also be used as fuel for Her? But here our character exists, 8 times rejoined. So either we didn't sacrifice ourselves in the summoning, or we weren't part of the group.

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Well seeing how our normal primals dont need souls to exist, there could be a possibility that Hydealyn was also summoned way different than Zodiark. Maybe this is the reason why the 14th left? They had other ideas but the rest wanted to use it like they did in the end? Maybe the 14th found a solution where she only needed some aether of their bodies but not their souls. Maybe they needed to bind themselves to her which then could be a reason why people with the echo can turn out to be WoLs.

We learn with 5.1 that the memories and the souls are two different parts thus even if we can transport a soul it could mean that the memories of the person itself is lost. So maybe Zodiark was created by giving all to it and Hydealyn was created to give their memories to her and a part of their aether (thus they died) while their souls remain intact. This could also explain why she is not aether hungry at all. She simply "eats" the persons memories after their soul pass through the lifestream. Which is also one solution to start anew. But that is pure speculation right now.

Farther adding the hole red flame possibility.
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...56dd8dfd46.jpg
The choice of colour here might be hint too.
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...a8c45bfcf7.jpg

Well on to Mornyr's monster post.

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

I think Fay was trying to say that the Ancients that were sacrificed were A) willing, so grudges shouldn't have been an issue anyway and B) that they only gave up their life energies and weren't actually involved in his creation. So basically "The group offered up their own pure life energies to act as fuel for the Convocation (minus what was presumably our original soul) to create Zodiark".

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Yes pretty much that.

It is said that people resigning themselves to save others even at the cost of their own life, experience a clarity of mind that dispels doubts well any thoughts other than the task at hand. If you need an example of it in game go clear T12 and watch "flames of truth".

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

Rather than saying she needed to split him, it sounds more to me like that's all she could actually do, regardless of whether she wanted to do more and kill him or not. Assuming that was even a possibility. I still like the thought that they might have been 'two sides of the same coin' so to speak, which would make killing the other one somewhat dicey.

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'two sides of the same coin' may also explains why Zoidark didn't curb stomp Hydaelyn as well if the power difference was drastically in Zoidarks favour.

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

How much stronger is a different question

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Yes, that's where a lot of speculation can stem from.

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

It does seem rather logical to me with what we know, but that could easily be turned on its head with future revelations.

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Yup it could be all wrong, however that doesn't negate it a possibility at the moment. That is what this thread is about in part. :)

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

All of those together make it seem to me that it would actually be pretty simple for them to piece together a timeline of events during the time they were away. Not to mention the shards of Zodiark himself which i'm sure they could glean some information from. I imagine it would be tedious and there could still be gaps in their knowledge, but learning what actually happened to the best of their ability would probably be the first thing on their minds when they got back.

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Yes, with their version of the echo it wouldn't be hard for them to investergate what happened. The issue is we have only one version of at least two versions of what happened as Emet stated. That then being up the question did the unbrocken ascian just find the answers they wanted to find? and not the hole truth.

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

I actually think this is a really interesting idea. After all, we have these:
[IMAGE]
and also this:
[IMAGE]
Now, none of the NPCs seem at all worried about these bunch of Cubus just aimlessly wandering around. One of them even sends us on a quest to go catch one, so we can use it's energy to make a real cloak and stop dressing like rebel punks.

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Thanks, I felt it was note wreathy.

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

I could definitely see the second portion of Zodiark sacrifices being used to 'quicken' the lifestream, so to speak.

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This seem the most sound speculation here. That the life given to bring new life to the star being that 'quicken'ing of the lifestream.

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

If that is the case, I have to wonder how that would have affected the Ascians creation magic. It's something of a vague idea of mine and i'm not too sure where i'm going with it, but I can't actually recall us seeing a current Ascian doing any Creation-like magic? In front of us that is. Though do correct me if i'm wrong, there's plenty of stuff in this game i either missed or don't remember haha.

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Depends how blanking Creation magic is considered. The likelihood of us seeing Ascians conceiving concepts is pretty low, unless it a cut scene or echo flash back. Manly because the hole dynamic between us and the ascians and the hole murder each other thing, probably wouldn't suit the conceiving of concepts.

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

Emet saving Y'shtola seems like a special case in my opinion,

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Yes, I think that was more for Shtola's every two expansion dip in the lifestream. lol >_<

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

Like, just going off Elidibus' words, I feel like it probably shouldn't be one of Hydaelyn's creators that made the paintings.

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That's note wreathy.

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Originally Posted by Mornyr

I'd be super curious to know if there was actually more behind the paintings and any other possible intact clues left behind on other Shards than they're letting on. Sure, it's probably the simplest explanation, a bunch of people half-remembering the events and worshiping them as their creator gods. But I think it would be cool if there was something more to it.

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I think the 4th will have some useful info on it seems the Ascians skipped rejoining it so far. The 8th or less so 9th if the 8th is problematic, seems likely to be the shared worked on to achieve a rejoining at the moment by the group Ascians that have been going clockwise around the shards.

On that note Qt_Melon"s post has a point

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Going Left to right in the cave:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18211925_1.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18211938_1.png

The last one is obviously the 1st WoL party

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18212017_1.png

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https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...7e99179c2b.jpg

so
The 1st's Age of Gods
The 1st's Empire of Ronka
Then the 1st's WoL

The echo confirms
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...6659da9bfa.jpg
The Ronkan one is mostly important to events of the 1st
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...0fa9be0f49.jpg
There is that hint of Emet in the 14 at the bottom.


The 1st's Age of Gods painting might have a more open beginning timeline. It may have the time before the sundering depicted in it.

In the cut scene they focus on the center ignoring the top and bottom, much like the 1st murals top later on. Those are parts that might have parallels the other murals.
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...b7e1fa3b83.jpg

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Originally Posted by Erendis

And whose souls would she eat? Unknowing souls of the dead? Would not that be against their will? In that case she would be worse than Zodiark who kept souls of willing sacrifices.

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You're assuming she has to be powered by "souls" and not aether.

My understanding is that sacrificial summoning would/could use only the body's aether without necessarily consuming the soul.

To piggyback off of that... everything is made out of aether, including souls. Souls from what we have seen just so happen to be made up of a lot of aether. Most primals we have see that have been summoned are created out of aether that isn't part of the summoner at all. That's the entire reason to use aether-crystals in summoning in the first place.

The Ancients had so much aether however, that they didn't need external sources of aether to Create concepts. Instead it seems they were so used to powering their Creations with their own aether that when it turned out they needed more aether then one person could provide, they also gave up the aether that kept them alive. I would be very interested if the Ancients who summoned both Hydaelyn and Zodiark experimented with using external aether sources before using their own aether.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

It's possible, Elidibus or Emet(if current speculation at the 5.1 zinger is anything to go by) might have a change of heart if the conditions are met (Zodiark betrayal, Zodiarks death, Hydaelyn betrayal possible, enemy of my enemy). I think Golbez was like this in FF4 but it's been age since I've played so I don't remember the story well.

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Golbez was

hypnotized just like Kain by Zemus

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Originally Posted by DaBigDorf

Golbez was

hypnotized just like Kain by Zemus

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I'd say that could make for an even better parallel.

Elidibus is also "hypnotized" (tempered) like Golbez. Coincidentally, what did we just learn about a potential cure for? The fact that they brought up a cure for tempering means it will be used at some point, and doing it to an Ascian would have the biggest impact on the story.

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Originally Posted by WrenElessedil

I'd say that could make for an even better parallel.

Elidibus is also "hypnotized" (tempered) like Golbez. Coincidentally, what did we just learn about a potential cure for? The fact that they brought up a cure for tempering means it will be used at some point, and doing it to an Ascian would have the biggest impact on the story.

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Possibly, but I still believe that

Tempering was something the Convocation added to Zodiark by design, as a control mechanism for stopping the uncontrollable Creation going on at the time. Whether this is true or not, I ALSO feel that the desire to sacrifice the New Life in order to restore the previous sacrifices was not Zodiark's desire, but that of the Convocation. If either or both of these things are true, then Elidibus would act no differently when freed from Tempering than he did while Tempered, since both the Tempering and the great sacrifice are things he himself wants, not things Zodiark wants.

Zodiark, as he's been presented so far, is basically just a tool. He does what his summoners ask of him, and desires nothing other than the fuel necessary to perform those tasks.

Of course, that COULD be the Big Twist - after painstakingly laying a trap for Elidibus, the Scions are able to remove him from Zodiark's control - only for nothing to change at all, as his desires remain unchanged!