I never said it did, for dungeon trash clemency is better than PoA, PoA only has 1 purpose, which is raid mitigation not for self. The 18s block is a pure noob trap and it separates the good players from the bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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08-05-2019, 03:10 PMStormbrand
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08-05-2019, 07:04 PMLyth
You shouldn't be having mitigation problems on any tank in dungeon content. If you are, there are much bigger issues that you need to be focusing on other than discussing tank balance in an online forum. Dungeon content doesn't separate good players from bad. Even the AI is capable of clearing it.
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08-05-2019, 10:37 PMArianeEwah
Block not scaling anymore is a non-issue.
In fact, it solves the issues we had back in SB. Block scaling wasn't just insane, but outright overpowered. Being able to mitigate 30% - on the same level as Vengeance and Shadowwall - on a 5s recast, usable every 22-23s on average, made Sheltron even stronger than Vengeance/Shadowwall in most cases.
Also, the ability to block magic in SB also made DRK obsolete. While in HW, DRK was a anti-magic/parry tank, PLD was focused on physical defense, and had weak magic mitigation. In SB DRK lost Dark Dance/Anticipation as its unique CD, but Dark Mind was left untouched. At the same time, block could mitigate magic attacks. In addition, PLD pDPS made a rocket jump, leaving DRK behind in terms of mitigation and DPS on average player skill. (They "fixed" some of this issues later on with DM having 30% base mitigation.) Now mix in Cover's trait 20% bonus mitigation, and party utility (PoA + DV) and PLD had a secured spot in most parties. WAR being the "DPS tank" during SB gave them a good spot, too. DRK wasn't needed - and too hard to play, unforgiving, or just not rewarding.
In ShB, block scaling is gone for good. And that's fine! Content is designed around multiple jobs. If just 1 single job would benefit from scaling, it would either make them either superior or even mandatory over the course of an expansion. Current and upcoming content is designed with current mitigation toolkit in mind, so the toolkit should not change.
PLD still has one additional party mitigation ability over the other tanks! (PoA+DV vs SiO vs HoL vs DMis)
Also, having 1 less pCD doesn't hurt PLD due to its passive blocks. (And as a DRK, I would always take passive mitigation over 5.0 Dark Mind) -
08-06-2019, 01:33 AMLadon
I don’t think block strength needs to increase with better shields. As many pointed out, Shelltron made block broken as hell and the reworked Shelltron would make it even worse.
Now what I would like to see is block rate increase with better shields as this would be more aligned to the improvement the other tanks see with their self heals as damage output goes up with better gear and it wouldn’t mess with Shelltron balance. -
08-06-2019, 07:55 AMAbsimiliardPaladin currently has amazing gear scaling. Its mitigation is also scaling better than that of the other tanks save for possibly DRK's use of TBN. PLD's damage output meets and in some cases exceeds that of GNB, and its self-heal is easily stronger than anything the other tanks get with the possible exception of WAR. The job in no way needs a higher block rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
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08-06-2019, 08:08 AMLadonI don’t think you realize every other tank save for paladin has a self heal built into their damage combos to account for the passive mitigation paladin gain though blocks. Block strength increased in the past for paladins to directly account for the massive increase in these self heals that higher damage weapons provided the other tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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08-06-2019, 09:09 AMAbsimiliardAbyssal Drain is DRK's equivalent to Clemency, essentially. And it is complete garbage on anything less than six mobs insofar as healing done is concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
Aurora is GNB's equivalent to Clemency. It is a heal-over-time effect that equals out to roughly the same potency as Clemency, but its cooldown combined with how slowly the heal actually come makes it more suited to smoothing out damage over than recovery. -
08-06-2019, 09:10 AMStormbrandmaybe try actually reading the whole story and figuring out what i was initially replying to other than telling people not to respond on forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
What scaling are you referring to exactly. If anything the other 3 tanks have better scaling because their self heals can crit and will and already do surpass the passive blocking the Paladin provides. Once we go further along the patch and all 4 tanks meld crit, the difference will be even greater, assuming block wont change. Seems like too many people forget that Sheltron does NOTHING to CRITS. Crit autos hurt like a motherfucker and we have to eat them everytime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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08-06-2019, 09:15 AMStormbrandDo you realize what you are doing right now? you are comparing a oGCD self heal with NO LOSS to a GCD self heal that fucks up your damage entirely. They are 100% completely different and should never be compared ever. If you are going to compare those self heals to anything compare them to Equilibrium as that is the strongest of the ones you mentioned. And what you mentioned is False completely. the DRK souleater will self heal for 300 potency so it does scale with weapon damage and stats. I dunno who told you it doesnt or where you got that idea. Souleater is a 300 potency self heal that can crit for an even higher amount and will scale amazingly further down the expansion when crit will be meta again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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08-06-2019, 09:36 AMLaunchedBlock still scales with incoming damage. Blocking 20k autos in this patch is a 4k damage reduction, blocking 30k autos in 5.2 would be a 6k damage reduction. It's not very different to Storm's Path healing 6k this patch and 8k in 5.2, they both scale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
Nothing seems to crit in Extreme/Savage so that's not a problem any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormbrand
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08-06-2019, 09:50 AMStormbrandI guess Savage doesn't but Extremes still do. Only the Adds in extreme do so I guess it isn't much of a problem thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Launched
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08-06-2019, 10:10 AMLadonYes they both scale but not at the same rate. Player damage may scale by 7% where enemy damage output by 5%. This is why they increased block strength a few percentages each tier. Now overall block effectiveness is a function of block strength and block rate. Block strength was always used probably because the math is easier. I think both the devs and players started to realize this was an issue when block strength hit a certain threshold with Sheltron in the equation. So I am hoping we see an increase in block rate to account for scaling discrepancies in player dmg and enemy dmg output unless they happen to scale the two equally this time around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
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08-06-2019, 01:05 PMIntrovertAntIf you are doing dungeon trash then you don't need to mitigate damage to your party 99% of the time. You as the tank are usually the only one taking damage. Why not use an ability that gives you 100% block rate in place of say, a shelltron? (IE PoA) Especially if it'll be back up by the time you get to the boss. I personally don't really do it except in rare circumstances, but it sounds like its a good idea especially if i want to make my oath gauge for shelltrons go further to make it easier on my healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormbrand
Also, keep in mind that after I reread the posts, no one said anything about staying in PoA for the full 18 seconds. Someone only assumed that's what they meant and ran with it. In my example above in the Twinning, the flurry attacks of those pixel enemies only last like 2-3 seconds, but 5 of them do it at the same time. Had I had tried to charge up clemency, assuming I had mana left over from doing my magic AOE combo, I probably would have died.
Again, I'm not saying to use PoA for personal mitigation as your first choice. But to blurt out hyperboli like "PoA only has 1 purpose, which is raid mitigation not for self" is just not using your brain.
I think that in situations where there isn't raid wide dmg going out, it's ok to use a defensive CD like PoA that gives you 100% block rate to block incoming dmg that would kill you. Plain and simple. -
08-07-2019, 12:49 AMaiqa
If you die on dungeon thrash pulls unless you use an ability to stops all your outgoing damage while only reducing incoming damage by 20%, you're doing something very wrong.
When you accept doing 0 gcd damage anyway you'd be better off using clemency, at least you can clip some ogcd stuff in between those heals.
But pretty much always you're much better off doing normal AoE damage to make sure incoming damage stops faster.
In my opinion passive blocks are hugely overrated, and certainly isn't near to making up for the far better selfheals from other tanks.
20% block chance with a 20% mitigation is only a 4% overall damage mitigation, and that is not even counting crits.
When looking at https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount it seems warrior or dark knight heal about 1k per second on average on a dungeon.
And a tank is not taking 1k/0.04=25k damage per second on average. -
08-07-2019, 01:26 AMTouchandFeelI'm pretty sure healing is calculated in the logs to include shields. This means that the big healing number you are seeing for DRK is because TBN's shield is being calculated as healing which makes that number an apples to oranges comparison when comparing it against the damage reduced from PLD's passive block. As for the high number for WAR, that would be from Nascent Flash being used as a mitigation tool in large pulls, which is also not an equivalent point of comparison to use against passive blocking.Quote:
Originally Posted by aiqa
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08-07-2019, 01:38 AMaiqaYou make a good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
But when looking over a few individual parses from higher ranked warriors Nascent Glint and Shake It Off do not account for 50% of their healing.
Even if you remove those (which I agree makes a lot of sense), the build-in healing on a warrior far outperforms paladin's passive blocking (+ gcd healing you always want to avoid).