RDM is back to its feet. BLM is still strong as hell.

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08-01-2019, 04:59 PM
Gruntler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

its More important then L33t Dps Sure, but if u hit the Enrage because No ones Trying to do anything to add Deeps ur Not reaching the end either way. and once your farming content ur more likely to try optimise the Fight. but i guess u wont Need Verraise in a Farm Fight reguardless as its a Much lower risk of someone actually dying lmao

If you're in prog and you needed that RDM, then the RDM isn't the reason you're not beating those enrage timers. It's the reason you're seeing them in the first place.

RDM's lower damage is made up for by the fact that it's a huge safety net that steals recoveries out of losses.
08-01-2019, 05:04 PM
Drayos

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I suppose I did call it a prog mage. Fair enough.

my point is "prog mage" is Dead.

People are Showing by logs, now just progressing with BLM/SMN. and alot of streamers have said they arent bothering with the RDM for prog. Maybe the fact RDM Spent time under the table without much Utility of Verraise has Shown players they may not actually need it :P
08-01-2019, 05:07 PM
Drayos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruntler

If you're in prog and you needed that RDM, then the RDM isn't the reason you're not beating those enrage timers. It's the reason you're seeing them in the first place.

RDM's lower damage is made up for by the fact that it's a huge safety net that steals recoveries out of losses.

I would say ur Over exaggerating how much of a Safety Net it is.

If 3 DPS Die prior a DPS Check, ur Failed with or without ur RDM, why? Because u've Put a Debuff on 3 DPS Players Who will Now Do less DPS then they orginally were, by the facts its Prog no ones Optimising which means ur not near a Orange Parse to begin with. So ur going to Fail a DPS Check INSTEAD both Resulting in your Death.

Death has a 2minute Debuff, it also has a various Degree of Punishment to the player itself Depending on what Job it is, as Some Jobs hit the floor in DPS without the correct CDs in use.

Verraise is NOT as good as ur making out, Its Useful. but if u have a SMN and 2 healers. u've got 3 Instant rezzs at the Ready already and if u need MORE rezzs u may wanna consider the fact u could Fail the Raid for another Reason. the more Mechanics u get Right, the less value a RDM has. The More instant rezzs avaliable in the Raid makes the RDM More Redundent. the MORE u need a RDM, the Less Likely your in a team which will make that clear ur currently on.

Everything u do progressively, will make RDM Less Valued, and If ur needing One for 8 rounds of rezzing, u're not clearin that Savage Run :P. RDM doesnt just remove ur Need to learn Mechanics.
08-01-2019, 05:10 PM
SaberMaxwell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

my point is "prog mage" is Dead.

People are Showing by logs, now just progressing with BLM/SMN. and alot of streamers have said they arent bothering with the RDM for prog. Maybe the fact RDM Spent time under the table without much Utility of Verraise has Shown players they may not actually need it :P

As of today 384 summoners have uploads in Savage. Red Mages have 355. Such a vast gulf prog mage is dead wow.
08-01-2019, 05:15 PM
Drayos

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

As of today 384 summoners have uploads in Savage. Red Mages have 355. Such a vast gulf prog mage is dead wow.

Im saying RDM is Dead AS a Prog Job.

i mean a good 75% of thgose RDM Counts are Likely RDM Mains, peopl;e not using it AS A PROG JOB. but a MAIN.

Summoners and Black mages ARENT using RDM as a Prog Job.

People who MAIN rdm are just playing it in Savage, Its not a Dead Job, its a highly Simple bursty Job, its going to get ALOT of players who really enjoy it. there are Plenty of people who love Easy Jobs, im saying we're seeing Casters going in with their INTENDED Job rather then Running with RDM For the SAKE of a first time run. im not saying "no ones playing RDM" im saying there is a Massive Reduction in the quantity of Caster mains Running RDM for the sakes of a First time run. and i do think thats Because Lots of factors.

BLM is at a Point where u could consider it has MORE mobility then RDM.. 3 Teleports + a Teleport to Weylines, if they know they're Kit they can perform Pretty well Reguardless, they Dont have to 99 percentile for a Progress run, its DOABLE>

Summoner i'd argue would be harder with ALOT less Mobility then BLM then this expansion, but it is Doable. i think u'd be Self-torturing if ur not Very good atr quickly picking mechanics up though.

ur going to have to see

People go to RDM For prog, they dont go t oSummoners, ur Seeing Summoner/BLM Mains v RDM MAINS + PROGs.

the Quantity of RDM mains Likely outweighs the quantity using it for Prog only.. so looking at the number of players who've SWAPPED to RDM for the sake of first time runs.. would be MUCH lower then the Number stated, RDM Is a popular job in itself.
08-01-2019, 05:18 PM
SaberMaxwell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

Im saying RDM is Dead AS a Prog Job.

i mean a good 75% of thgose RDM Counts are Likely RDM Mains, peopl;e not using it AS A PROG JOB. but a MAIN.

Summoners and Black mages ARENT using RDM as a Prog Job.

People who MAIN rdm are just playing it in Savage, Its not a Dead Job, its a highly Simple bursty Job, its going to get ALOT of players who really enjoy it. there are Plenty of people who love Easy Jobs, im saying we're seeing Casters going in with their INTENDED Job rather then Running with RDM For the SAKE of a first time run.

That's a bold assertion made with no evidence.

Verraise is a powerful tool for seeing more mechanics in the fight and pushing to the next mechanic. Which is what blind prog wants more than anything else. It's also a common tactic to switch to a stronger caster to finish the fight off.
08-01-2019, 05:23 PM
Drayos

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

That's a bold assertion made with no evidence.

Verraise is a powerful tool for seeing more mechanics in the fight and pushing to the next mechanic. Which is what blind prog wants more than anything else. It's also a common tactic to switch to a stronger caster to finish the fight off.

Well it is made with Evidence.

ur treating the parse numbers as if NO ONE mains RDM.... If NO ONE mained RDM to begin with i'd beleive you

if RDM is THAT dead as a Job that the majority of its parses are made by Players using it as a Alt prog Job, thats a problem in itself and Does need Changes. lol
08-01-2019, 05:26 PM
Gruntler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

Well it is made with Evidence.

ur treating the parse numbers as if NO ONE mains RDM.... If NO ONE mained RDM to begin with i'd beleive you

the fact theres likely MORE RDM MAINS then both BLM and Summoner PUT TOGETHER. however Proves otherwise. Also i play a RDM, I've aware of how many Actual groups LOCK rdm out of their teams..

And while yes im not Saying verraise Isnt a Powerful tool, Im saying its Not required, u Dont NEED it, If u WIPE to a Mechanic with or without that Raise, u'll get it a Second time. providing ur good at learning and Keep pushing u dont need it, i saw PLENTY of teams do JUST FINE without RDM.

Just how many groups have you been watching so closely as to make such a bold conclusion on a raid tier that's been out two days?
08-01-2019, 05:27 PM
SaberMaxwell

Saying "its made with evidence" doesn't make it so. You're acting like just a streamer's opinion is fact; people racing for world prog don't tend to stream. You're acting like nobody's switched jobs for the kill, another common tactic. What's more is this final claim that there are more RDM mains put together than BLM mains and SMN mains... where does this number come from?
08-01-2019, 05:27 PM
Drayos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruntler

Just how many groups have you been watching so closely as to make such a bold conclusion on a raid tier that's been out two days?

Dude its Not a Bold Statement.

Ur trying to tell me u cant possibly do savage WITHOUT a RDM?

then guess what its NOT REQUIRED, i've never said Its USELESS, i've said its NOT required.

you DO NOT NEED a RDM to clear Savage. NOR PROG> its Not a requirement, ANY JOB IN THIS GAME CAN CLEAR ANY CONTENT the balance isnt Whack enough ever to make this NOT the case.

u can stack 3 Insta-Raises in a Group without a RDM. u can hold LB3 for the Healers. theres ENOUGH safety in the game itself to support u without a RDM presence.
08-01-2019, 05:28 PM
SaberMaxwell

Quote:

if RDM is THAT dead as a Job that the majority of its parses are made by Players using it as a Alt prog Job, thats a problem in itself and Does need Changes. lol

That's the premise of my whole point.
08-01-2019, 05:30 PM
SaberMaxwell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

Dude its Not a Bold Statement.

Ur trying to tell me u cant possibly do savage WITHOUT a RDM?

then guess what its NOT REQUIRED, i've never said Its USELESS, i've said its NOT required.

Who said it was required? Just because RDM specializes in prog doesn't mean it's required.
08-01-2019, 05:31 PM
Drayos

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Saying "its made with evidence" doesn't make it so. You're acting like just a streamer's opinion is fact; people racing for world prog don't tend to stream. You're acting like nobody's switched jobs for the kill, another common tactic. What's more is this final claim that there are more RDM mains put together than BLM mains and SMN mains... where does this number come from?

can u litterally not read?..

I've stated

RDMS are NOT required for Progression - this isnt Saying RDM is Weak.
players ARE using BLM/SMN for Progression - This isnt Saying RDM is weak.
That theres MORE parses with a BLM/SMN to RDM on its Release - this isnt saying RDM is Weak.

Saying That less people ar eusing it Solo for Prog only isnt saying NO ONE is, its Just saying LESS.

The MAJORITY of PLAYERS Flock to Easier Jobs, due to MULTIPLE reasons, read the Damn forums. Read the feedback. theres ALOT of Feedback HATING on Summoner right now, theres NO FEEDBACK HATING ON RDMs. If u read through "whos changing mains" u'll read TONS went Dancer/RDM this Expansion. BLM is beloved, but Tons of peopel openly admit they dont have the free time to invest that Much time into Learnign Raids to maximise it.

Litterally Its a Known Fact.

humans Take paths of least Resistance, RDM is EASIER to play then both other Options. so its MORE likely to be Popular, these are Statistical Views made on Several places.
08-01-2019, 05:34 PM
Gruntler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

I would say ur Over exaggerating how much of a Safety Net it is.

Having singlehanded turned wipes into kills many many many times since RDM came out, I assure you, I am not. RDM herds cats in prog and it herds cats in pugs.

Quote:

If 3 DPS Die prior a DPS Check, ur Failed with or without ur RDM

If you never see the DPS check, you failed that check. But you also didn't practice the mechanics leading up to said check. So that time spent progging was less valuable, as your team got less practice and developed less consistency.

Quote:

why? Because u've Put a Debuff on 3 DPS Players Who will Now Do less DPS then they orginally were, by the facts its Prog no ones Optimising which means ur not near a Orange Parse to begin with. So ur going to Fail a DPS Check INSTEAD both Resulting in your Death.

But you're seeing that DPS check. And the mechanics before it. As opposed to before where the boss just finishes the group off while people watch and get no feel for the mechanics.

Quote:

Death has a 2minute Debuff, it also has a various Degree of Punishment to the player itself Depending on what Job it is, as Some Jobs hit the floor in DPS without the correct CDs in use.

But a dps that is dead practices no mechanics. No practice=no mastery. It's not just about 'beating dps checks.' It's about making use of each pull so as many people can practice as much as possible to lead to faster mastery.

Quote:

Verraise is NOT as good as ur making out, Its Useful. but if u have a SMN and 2 healers. u've got 3 Instant rezzs at the Ready already and if u need MORE rezzs u may wanna consider the fact u could Fail the Raid for another Reason. the more Mechanics u get Right, the less value a RDM has. The More instant rezzs avaliable in the Raid makes the RDM More Redundent. the MORE u need a RDM, the Less Likely your in a team which will make that clear ur currently on.

The problem is that you're trying to criticize Red Mage as a -prog tool- but you're using arguments involving the -clear-. Your hypothetical scenario isn't discussing -progression-.

Quote:

Everything u do progressively, will make RDM Less Valued, and If ur needing One for 8 rounds of rezzing, u're not clearin that Savage Run :P. RDM doesnt just remove ur Need to learn Mechanics.

That's a hot-take, that a mage that specializes in PROGRESSION gets less valuable at PROGRESSION the less you need PROGRESSION.

Also, heals become less valuable the less damage you take.

And as you get later and later into a tier, RDM doesn't become less valuable for prog because the gear starts to carry, which means RDM changes from 'It lets you see more mechanics' to 'it carries a group to enrage that otherwise would not see enrage' to 'it keeps enough people in the fight that you don't reach enrage through attrition.'

And any 'Red Mage Main' who's farmed anything in Party Finder should damn-well know that.
08-01-2019, 05:36 PM
SaberMaxwell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

can u litterally not read?..

Rude, also it feels like you're projecting.

Quote:

I've stated

RDMS are NOT required for Progression - this isnt Saying RDM is Weak.

Cool. We agree, it's not required. You totally owned me there. Amazing. Awesome. Holy snap. I never disagreed there, actually, but good job beating that strawman.

Quote:

players ARE using BLM/SMN for Progression - This isnt Saying RDM is weak

Red Mage is still specialized for prog. This isn't saying RDM is mandated for prog or that it's strong.

Quote:

That theres MORE parses with a BLM/SMN to RDM on its Release - this isnt saying RDM is Weak.

Yes, you're right. But you can't make the claim that all the RDM players are RDM mains, or even that the majority of them are RDM mains, without proper evidence and citation.

Quote:

Read what im writing instead of blindly replying.

Looking through this thread, I'm not the one who seems to be blindly replying.

Quote:

The MAJORITY of PLAYERS Flock to Easier Jobs, due to MULTIPLE reasons, read the Damn forums.

Yet RDM is the lesser uploaded Savage caster. Hm.

Quote:

Read the feedback. theres ALOT of Feedback HATING on Summoner right now, theres NO FEEDBACK HATING ON RDMs. If u read through "whos changing mains" u'll read TONS went Dancer/RDM this Expansion.

Yet RDM is the lesser uploaded Savage caster. Hm.
Also worth noting that, yes, after the 5.05 buffs, RDM don't have any feedback. Their issue got solved, that being their intense mana costs. Beforehand you had tons of threads about the issue. Maybe hence the thread title, "RDM back on its feet."

Quote:

BLM is beloved, but Tons of peopel openly admit they dont have the free time to invest that Much time into Learnign Raids to maximise it.

Yet there are almost as many uploads of BLM as RDM. Hm.

Quote:

Litterally Its a Known Fact.

Then cite your sources.

Quote:

humans Take paths of least Resistance, RDM is EASIER to play then both other Options. so its MORE likely to be Popular, these are Statistical Views made on Several places.

Yet RDM is the lesser uploaded Savage caster. Hm. Moreover, SMN is the most technically complex caster.
08-01-2019, 05:37 PM
Drayos

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

That's the premise of my whole point.

my point is i dont bveleive that.

I Meet TONS of RDM mains every day ALOT more the BLM or SMN lol.
08-01-2019, 05:41 PM
SaberMaxwell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

my point is i dont bveleive that.

I Meet TONS of RDM mains every day ALOT more the BLM or SMN lol.

So anecdotal evidence counts now?
08-01-2019, 05:51 PM
Drayos

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

So anecdotal evidence counts now?

no, but im saying I meet TOo many RDMs Daily to beleive thats it Pool of players is that Tiny.

RDM is not a Dead job Popularity wise. it has No reason to be a Dead Job popularity wise. i think to claim that is far more bold then to Deny it, ur litterally Saying the Job is Dead. and reguardless..

i reached my daily limit so cant post Anymore :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

That's still anecdotal evidence.

It doesn't have to be a dead job popularity wise. You just need to substantiate your claims. According to you next to nobody uses RDM for prog purposes, and the RDM uploads are mainly RDM mains; this is a claim that is backed up by nothing.

Quote me where I said RDM was a dead job.

my point hewre, is Simple. We're Looking at one of the LOWEST counts of Parses. if the Jobs Mainly made up on the competitive scene by people who use it as a Alt, that Spells Dead Realistically.

I said LESS people are using it for Prog purposes then Those who are running with their Geniune Mains, that doesnt say "next to no one" it Says i beleive the people using their Actual mains in content is ABOVE 50%. the fact that Ninjas and RDMs are being locked out of SEVERAL farm groups and More continously would go to AID THIS. because RDMs are being rejected from farm groups.

this isnt saying the jobs Weak, but players Perception of the Job Clearly is different. if anything RDM mains are forced to use a Different Job to comply with farm groups, as RDMs are less Welcome in farm comparitively.. so Why dont U apply this to what ur saying?.. What about the RDM Mains who SWITCHED their Job for farm groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I did. I said "It sure would be nice to not have to main two jobs just because one plays a caster."

That's a two-way street.

And im saying, u dont need 2 main jobs and theres Lots of people Not doing it, ur Seeing plenty of People Taking BLMs into blind runs, i've seen Plenty of them throughout Learning parties, i think espically in BLMs case their Mobility has gotten so good now, that being a higfh skill player. u can Quite easily do BLM in a Blind run. Sure u have to Utilise ur Kit for mobility, but that stands by any job.

and while RDM does have qualities that fit prog well, Monks have the ability to increase Healing, Lb3 is a instant raid wide Rezz without rezz sickness, both healers have SC a Summoner can have SC, Tanks have Invuns. this game has LOTS of Defensive CDs, Protective CDs and more in it.. there are MANY things the game provides thorugh plenty of Jobs Defensive Utility that can also fit prog :P

it doesnt change the factor the Caster Roles Lowest and highest DPS Values are 2x Wider then both Other DPS Roles, DRG SAM and monk are ALL in 500 DPS of each other. Bard and MCH Are within 500 DPS of Each other. Sure ninjas Behind but We all agree that needs buffs, and Dancer has 1600 RDPS behind it. Alot of RDM Prog memes come from the fact its Useless in any other circumstance.. Not Strictly only because its Strong in Prog.

and the whole "U get to see more mechanics" thats the DAY.

After Yesterday u can Google ANY OF the mechanics, they're Documented.. so blind Doesnt exist beyond the first Day.. practicing them is brand new.. but we can EASILY find out all the mechanics Now. blind is Now a CHOICE that is no longer Nessercary.

so no u dont need a RDM to "see more mechanics" u need a Search Engine. by litterally (not your argument) but the other guys argument has Just been Nerfed by their own argument.. because its No longer vital, that reason has Died :P, and if a Jobs Value can be Reduced because content is more then a Day old, i do feel thats Again a negative.
08-01-2019, 05:55 PM
SaberMaxwell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

no, but im saying I meet TOo many RDMs Daily to beleive thats it Pool of players is that Tiny.

That's still anecdotal evidence.

Quote:

RDM is not a Dead job Popularity wise. it has No reason to be a Dead Job popularity wise.

It doesn't have to be a dead job popularity wise. You just need to substantiate your claims. According to you next to nobody uses RDM for prog purposes, and the RDM uploads are mainly RDM mains; this is a claim that is backed up by nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

i think to claim that is far more bold then to Deny it, ur litterally Saying the Job is Dead.

Quote me where I said RDM was a dead job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayos

if anything RDM mains are forced to use a Different Job to comply with farm groups, as RDMs are less Welcome in farm comparitively.. so Why dont U apply this to what ur saying?.. What about the RDM Mains who SWITCHED their Job for farm groups.

I did. I said "It sure would be nice to not have to main two jobs just because one plays a caster."

That's a two-way street.

In fact, looking at my post, I also stated "being a prog mage isn't satisfying;" one might infer from that that I'm bemoaning exactly that state of affairs, being asked to switch jobs for farm.

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