While this conversation is rather important, since when has "utility" become shorthand for "party damage buffs"? It feels like we're pigeonholing ourselves into a certain way of thinking...
Mostly because I'm thinking about 'utility' to give WHM that doesn't necessarily have to line up with Trick Attack and its ilk...
After this is all over, can we never claim "WHM is fine"?
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07-29-2019, 12:16 PMIrenia
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07-29-2019, 12:23 PMLagomorphSince creator. If "utility" in the form of mitigation, healing, etc isn't needed, then groups will almost always choose damage buffs. Path 3.4 marked when most aspects this game became ridiculously easy and the only metric that mattered to people was dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenia
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07-29-2019, 01:34 PMExiled_TonberryExcept this has not been true since HW. It's so frustrating that people would continue to believe this. Only now has their DPS been allowed to shine.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
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07-29-2019, 01:34 PMTrunksOh for the love of... I didn't say anything about it being balanced. But it's difficult to say a Job is hopelessly, broken and underpowered when it's present (often preferred) in early kills of Ultimates, and has tens of thousands of parses posted from Savage raids in every tier. "Viable" and "balanced" are not synonyms; I specifically chose the word "viable" because it does not imply a state of balance. My point was simply that SE has seldom left any Job in a non-viable state for any significant length of time, which is more than I can say for any other MMO I've played. That's the only argument I was making, in direct reply to some fatalistic garbage about how balance is impossible to achieve (which it's not).Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
If you'd actually read anything I've posted in this thread, you'd know I'm 100% with you on this. -
07-29-2019, 04:55 PMThoosa
Honestly for a game that puts so much emphasis on dps there has been some weird choices made on the healers.
It seems to me that the only healer now with an identity is AST now. It has cards (which aren’t as good as stormblood, but the utility is still there), it has lightspeed, Earthy Star, Divination (with a long cooldown) and it has shields or regens. The shields cost a load of MP which I assume is deliberate so not to cast Scholar into irrelevancy and the dps is weak presumably because the job has utility.
Scholar seems a shadow of its former self. I miss Miasma 2, Shadowflare and Bane. It was fun to play balancing doing DPS with shielding. Scholar was meant to be the DPSA healer?
WHM just feels the same without Aero 3, lots of healing options (which don’t seem needed outside Savage) and pretty boring DPS which currently seems to outshine the other healers lol. WHM should always have a place in savage assuming the incoming damage is high, because I assume in the current state an AST and SCH partnership would be harder.
I’m not sure why they couldn’t have just kept the DPS abilities and by proxy the healer identities and just increased the incoming damage for normal content. -
07-29-2019, 05:26 PMSaefinnIt was fine in ARR before they buffed its pure heals, I get content is not exactly the same as it was in ARR but the way I handled the handicap was to learn how to better utilise my faeries (through micromanagement) and using damage mitigation and shields to keep people from taking further damage whilst I get their health up. Personally, I enjoy that kind of healing. I don't mean getting people's health up needs to be a slog, but I want to be able to work harder to better utilise my mitigation and also to push more out of my faeries and think a little more about how I might adjust to the situation over simple spamming of heals. I just find with the buffs SCH has kept getting to pure healing that the healing side has gotten too easy and too boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
If stuff is heading south, I don't even have to give any thought to what I am doing, because it's really easy for me to get people's health back up, even without any shields. In ARR, I might Succor first so no more damage is being taken whilst I focus on getting people back up to health, I'd probably utilise my faerie somewhat to do that, Eos had a damage mitigation spell, I might throw on a SS on top and how this was balanced was enough to keep people from dying whilst I topped up their HP pool. Or utilise my faerie in another way, with Rouse, throwing a healing-received buff and then Whispering Dawn and it was potency enough of an AoE Regen to top people up.
SCH DPS was also good enough at this point and relied on DoT's enough to account for the fact I might have to do more than a WHM to get people's HP up and I liked that.
Nowadays I get a lot more downtime to just DPS. And now that's boring with ShB changes. My preference would be an evolution of the above experience but to match today's content. Though I also get this is how I prefered the job and what drew me in when I started playing. But I don't think it'd be unbalanced to SCH's detriment, I think it'd just be shifting the emphasis on how a SCH heals. Their method would prevent people from taking damage to then top them up and use their faerie more to achieve it or be more proactive in approach so people don't need you to top them up as much. I know other people started later and probably enjoy a different aspect of SCH and probably like that it is really good at both pure healing and shielding, so it may be an unwelcome change for some...that said, they may even find they like/enjoy it. My compromise to those people would be just: make the job interesting to play. -
07-29-2019, 05:41 PMsupaikuThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
I really don't understand why they brought AST and SCH down instead of bringing WHM up. A simple haste buff would have been enough for WHM. It doesn't need as much utility as AST has, one (1!) haste skill wouldn't make it more difficult to play or put it away from the "pure" healer role. But for some reason the dev team is as stubborn as a teenager when it comes to this point.
They also could have replaced balance with a direct hit buff and spire with something that decreases cooldowns instead of the mess we got now. -
07-29-2019, 06:27 PMTankHunter678SCH feels like it still has an identity to me. AST is like a discount WHM with the option of being a horrendously underpowered discount SCH. The card system is such a shadow of its old self it makes the SCH issues of having fewer DPS buttons look more like a joke. A SCH is going to get plenty of reward for the effort they put in, and AST puts in a ton more effort for a reward that is just not worth it to the point people exclude it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoosa
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07-30-2019, 01:34 AMgalbsadiTo me, SCH feels like a discount WHM but with a few shields. The fairy is basically cosmetic-only now, or otherwise a limitation on existing abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
Physick is just a weaker Cure that doesn't buff Adlo/Cure2 like Cure does.
Adlo is basically Cure2 but with part of it as a shield instead.
Lustrate is just Afflatus:Solace but with shared cooldowns with Sacred Soil as well as Indom (whereas A:S just shares a cooldown with A:R, aka WHM Indom).
Indom is just Afflatus:Raputre but with shared cooldowns with Sacred Soil as well as Lustrate...oh, and a 1m cooldown too, b/c why not?
Sacred Soil is basically Asylum, but with shared cooldowns with Lustrate and Indom....and by changing "bonus healing" into "reduced damage"...both serve the same effect in the vast majority of situations.
Dissipation is basically Temperance except by also locking you out of all fairy abilities for the duration.
Whispering Dawn is basically Medica2 but with a CD instead of a cast time...and requiring a fairy to be active...and no initial heal...and taking just as long to actually go off...and possibly being weaker because of the pet tax.
Need I continue? How about a twist? I've been playing quite a bit of WHM lately, so let's look at it from the other side!
Afflatus:Solace is basically Lustrate, but without as many restrictions, although it is on the GCD....this just means it lines up nicely with Benison or Tetra or Plenary or Assize.
Afflatus:Rapture is basically Indom, with the same notes as A:S above.
Temperance is basically Dissipation, but without all the drawbacks.
Tetra is basically a once/min oGCD A:S that can also be weaved in with A:S or A:R if needed.
Benediction is a cheat code. Period. The end. Except when it doesn't go off in time b/c RNGesus hates you (doesn't happen often, but when it does it's obnoxious).
Benison is kinda like Excog...gives some nice breathing room, and doesn't cost a Lustrate or Indom.
Asylum is kinda like Sacred Soil...gives a nice boost to group heals....and doesn't cost a Lustrate or Indom.
Assize is kinda like an extra Indom...except it doesn't cost a Lustrate...and is on a separate CD, and damages enemies, and restores mana too!
Losing the fairy was felt slightly, but Regen basically covers that, and is targetable too!
MedicaII is basically like a WD, except I have to spend a couple seconds casting it (that WD took anyhow to take effect, so no major loss)...and I can spam it if I needed to for some odd reason.
Medica is basically like a weaker Succor, and Cure3 is basically a stronger succor but with a shorter range.
Holy is basically art of war, except with a NICE stun (but you do have to stand still for a second to use it).
PoM is another cheat code.
Thin Air is another cheat code.
and finally...Afflatus Misery...is the reason you all exist...to feed the blood lily.... -
07-30-2019, 01:39 AMgalbsadiDaily reminder that this is FALSE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
Here's WHM out-healing SCH and AST both in Eden (normal, b/c Savage isn't out yet): https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
Here's WHM out-healing SCH and AST both in EX Trials: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
Here's WHM out-healing SCH (but not AST) in lv80 Dungeons: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
...note that all of these includes shielding as healing.
Also note that this is in addition to WHM pDPS outshining the total rDPS of both AST and SCH. -
07-30-2019, 01:49 AMSaberMaxwellAre you able to cross reference those rankings with DPS rankings to check that white mages doing that level of HPS are also keeping up their DPS? Likewise with SCH?Quote:
Originally Posted by galbsadi
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07-30-2019, 02:01 AMgalbsadiI'm sure if somebody wanted to dig deep enough they could find where the trade-offs lie, but that's also where things get more complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
For example, just earlier this week I had somebody trying to talk down my parses as SCH on a run with a PUG that took a lot of avoidable damage and had unnecessary deaths....which naturally led to lower DPS numbers (but led to higher than normal HPS numbers). Conversely, had a run with mostly static members (as a warmup into EX trials for some that still need gear there)...and almost no avoidable damage was taken, leading to purple DPS parses...but much lower HPS ones.
So, it's possible, but that'd be a much deeper level of research than I have the time (or wherewithal) to partake in right now. The information I linked is all public, however, so anybody else is welcome to...but the point stands that WHM are both capable of significantly higher DPS numbers and significantly higher HPS numbers...which mind you, I'm not saying is a good or a bad thing....merely that it's false to say they're "lower DPS than SCH." -
07-30-2019, 02:14 AMSaberMaxwellI'll elaborate further, but it's those trade-offs and complications where the discussion prompted by the statement "SCH has more HPS than WHM" lies.Quote:
Originally Posted by galbsadi
Exactly.Quote:
For example, just earlier this week I had somebody trying to talk down my parses as SCH on a run with a PUG that took a lot of avoidable damage and had unnecessary deaths....which naturally led to lower DPS numbers (but led to higher than normal HPS numbers). Conversely, had a run with mostly static members (as a warmup into EX trials for some that still need gear there)...and almost no avoidable damage was taken, leading to purple DPS parses...but much lower HPS ones.
"And" is a bold word. "Or" is probably a better word.Quote:
So, it's possible, but that'd be a much deeper level of research than I have the time (or wherewithal) to partake in right now. The information I linked is all public, however, so anybody else is welcome to...but the point stands that WHM are both capable of significantly higher DPS numbers and significantly higher HPS numbers...which mind you, I'm not saying is a good or a bad thing....merely that it's false to say they're "lower DPS than SCH."
I suppose by word of the statement, yes you're right. Stick a SCH and a WHM together and have them healspam, WHM will win. Generally when people make a statement like that though, they're talking about those very trade-offs you'd have to do research on to find. What are the HPS of two healers maximizing DPS, and thus minimizing HPS? Looking at 10th percentile, SCH wins here for instance. Can I correlate a low HPS with a high DPS? Not really, like you I don't have the data to support that theory because FFLogs itself doesn't offer that kind of data, or if it does it's not a feature I've personally found. -
07-30-2019, 02:42 AMIrenia
Part of that reason is opportunity cost. Or rather, how much DPS do those skills cost.
Because Scholar has many, many healing skills that cost 0 DPS, it should be obvious that they use their free skills first, and in an optimized situation, they should be the one healing more... At least, until the free stuff runs out. After that, it gets murky.
If DPS does need to be spent, then Afflatus is best here - you get a refund on the DPS even! And if things are really as and you want to spend all your DPS to keep everyone up... Well, that's where WHM also shines, right? -
07-30-2019, 02:46 AMGhishlain
@SaberMaxwell - I think I'll just to answer your question using myself as an anecdote with a recent Titania EX I was in:
I did 6,931.3 HPS which is considered a 97th percentile when compared to 102,945 parses within the last two weeks. In the very same fight I achieved 5,132.2 pDPS which is considered 66th percentile when compared to 102,945 parses within the last two weeks.
A scholar in the 70th percentile range achieves 4,809.7 DPS (this includes both rDPS and pDPS). A 99th percentile SCH achieves 6,8326.24 HPS.
So using this one metric, my one run of Titania exceeds SCH in both the HPS and DPS category. Of course this is only metric in a pool of over 100,000 entries so obviously take it with a grain of salt but yes, it is possible for a WHM to surpass a SCH in both HPS and DPS within the same fight.
I think in order to do a proper analysis of what you're inquiring, you'll probably need to find the point where a WHM parse whom is of equal percentile in both HPS and DPS as this will indicate that they do both equally as well - then compare that value with SCH in the same percentile range and see how they compare.
[edit] I think it's important to note that WHM also loses less potency versus SCH when they have to weave oGCDs because of how Lilies operate. Afflatus basically acts like a 225 potency GCD weaving tool when you can use Misery (so 75 potency loss from Glare). Ruin II is a 200 potency GCD weaving tool (also an 80 potency loss from Broil III). So, it's more beneficial for WHM to use their weaving tool first versus SCH, thus increasing WHM's overall healing just because their weaving tool both acts as a heal and is an overall lesser potency loss versus the SCH equivalent. This will skew results at the high end optimization in WHM's favour. -
07-30-2019, 02:49 AMgalbsadiEven that's not necessarily so black and white, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
For example, here's the top parse as DPS for BOTH WHM and SCH on Eden Prime (same run, they ran together):
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/fmWKC...pe=damage-done
While the SCH does have higher healing here, note that the SCH is still parsing 46th percentile healing, whereas the WHM is parsing 9%. One might argue that this is a tradeoff where SCH has an advantage...or one might argue how the WHM had 53% overheal (as compared to 35% for the WHM). Another argument might be that this is strategic, focusing entirely on oGCD healing and pure weaving on the part of the WHM (here roughly 75% of the SCH healing was oGCD or instant [hardcasts being 5 Succors], and roughly 82% of the WHM healing was as well [hardcasts being literally one Cure3 and two Medica2 casts]). (Note that these were all hardcasts, as all usage of Swiftcast by either player was added to their primary damage ability.) Like I said, to put it matter of factly is, IMO, pretty wrong unless you have some serious backup to support that.
This difference can also be seen on the DPS end, with the SCH only having 77 casts of Broil3, compared to 83 casts of Glare from the WHM, as well as some slightly reduced DoT usage (9 Biolysis vs. 13 Dia).
If one was to dig deeper, though, this is probably a good starting point, as overall activity was similar for both healers here (138 casts, or 24.9 CPM from the SCH, and 137 casts, or 24.8 CPM from the WHM).
For a bit deeper looking, here's another top-performing WHM on DPS...coupled with a high performing...WHM on DPS. https://www.fflogs.com/reports/z3xfD...pe=damage-done
One WHM parsed 99% DPS but only 9% healing....but the other parsed 77% DPS...and 86% healing. This suggests that it may not necessarily be a tradeoff as much as suggested.
Also supporting this, the highest ranking AST log (https://www.fflogs.com/reports/7zthZ...pe=damage-done) also features a SCH who parses well on both DPS (92%) and healing (77%).
Finally, here's another parse showing a WHM parsing both more DPS and healing than SCH...at a high level (97% DPS on WHM, 99% on SCH): https://www.fflogs.com/reports/QZbMq...9&type=healing -
07-30-2019, 03:17 AMSaberMaxwellFair enough. I'll just say I'm not equipped to have this conversation; I'm not a healer main, I'm not an expert on the tools that they have. My point from the outset is that you're answering the wrong question when you say "WHM has higher HPS than SCH just look at the upper percentiles." With the research you've subsequently done, I accept the conclusion drawn much more.Quote:
Originally Posted by galbsadi
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07-30-2019, 03:18 AMMimiluFor me, I think this is why they need an even number of healers to balance with instead of having an odd number, which they have to balance around AST, who has to both do its own thing (cards) and fill either WHM's or SCH's role but not as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
With an even number, you can have 2 proactive healers (shields and/or buffs/heals before damage) and 2 reactive healers (heals after damage with burst and HoTs), while still giving everyone the minimum they need to do casual content in the event a party gets 2 of the same type of healer. -
07-30-2019, 03:25 AMgalbsadiNote: I could still be wrong here too, as my knowledge, while perhaps better suited as I do main a healer and do some raid content....still isn't that of a HC progression raider (and never will be again, I got burned out of that race years ago in WoW...I game for fun, not a second job).Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
However, as to why I'm using higher percentiles here: this is intentional as it implies that people are looking at optimization at this point and what the job is actually capable of...and this is what tends to shape the meta when it forms. Realistically it's fair to point out that this doesn't necessarily apply to the majority of players...as it's fully possible to clear without having anywhere near an orange parse in the entire group. (I can't speak to minimums to clear in this game in particular, but when I last led a raid team in WoW [early Legion, when EN was current] it was somewhere around lower greens on average being necessary to clear most Normal and Heroic content, with higher parses merely being a bonus or allowing one to carry another's weight in particular content).
I'm also, while I consider myself decent, far from the best player out there. My parses typically average blue (roughly median), partially because I don't stress *too* much about optimization (unless we're not clearing). After all, for me the reward is to fight the content and to beat it, not to have my name in orange or purple (despite the fact that my parses do actually show purple, largely b/c they run off 'best', not average). -
07-30-2019, 03:38 AMRisvertasashi
Comparing HP/S on logs is a terrible, terrible idea.
HP/S is capped, and the more your cohealer heals, the less you can heal. -
07-30-2019, 03:58 AMGhishlainExcept the discussion in question isn't about looking at raw HPS value, but more about WHM being able to outperform SCH in both the HPS and DPS metric at the same time. Of course it stands to reason that a healer who heals more will be DPSing less but the question still remains if a WHM who is HPSing more will still output more DPS than a SCH who has to perform at the same percentile of healing as a WHM. That's something you can infer by digging deep into the bowels of the site which shall not be named.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
Or to put bluntly, if both WHM and SCH need to output 6,000HPS to succeed in the fight; how much DPS will they still be outputting by the time the fight is done and how comparable are they? You'll need a lot of datapoints to answer that question but it's definitely more than just looking for raw HPS values that is implied in your post.