All physical range DPS are perfect now!

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

The MCH sucks. Feels generic and unfun to play. Want the job to be reverted.

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Respectfully disagree here, I love new MCH and feel like it's now how MCH should have always been. Guess you can't please everyone.

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

Respectfully disagree here, I love new MCH and feel like it's now how MCH should have always been. Guess you can't please everyone.

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What's so good about this job now? Nothing. It feels smooth, yes, I totaly agree with that. But Job lost it's uniquness, it's gunslinger feel. And, personaly, this dumb robot is totaly out of the place. The turret was better.

Given the overhaul I can certainly see why people would like old MCH better. But I like the new approach and all the different machines. Though I'm also just more interested in the Edgar exque approach than focusing on the gun. The gun itself is the least interesting part of new MCH for me.

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Originally Posted by armandojc3

I know im alone here but i do preffer the bard to be a ranger.

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Trust me you are in no way alone, people have been asking for that for a long while. It's just never gonna happen. SE would 1) have to literally retcon the entire job's story, and if there is anything we have learned is that SE views story and lore as the most important part of the game. And 2) This would upset the players who have grown to and love the idea of a Bowman Bard, and have gained an identity with the job for over 6 years. The job has been one of the most popular jobs since day one, and they aren't going to upset that with such a drastic change.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

What's so good about this job now? Nothing. It feels smooth, yes, I totaly agree with that. But Job lost it's uniquness, it's gunslinger feel. And, personaly, this dumb robot is totaly out of the place. The turret was better.

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Feels unique to me, compared to the other jobs. It's really enjoyable. I couldn't bring myself to play old MCH, so I suppose it was made for people like me. I love the new robot, to me it's way cooler than the turret but like I said, to each his own.

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

Feels unique to me, compared to the other jobs. It's really enjoyable. I couldn't bring myself to play old MCH, so I suppose it was made for people like me. I love the new robot, to me it's way cooler than the turret but like I said, to each his own.

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pew pew turret was lame. Robot is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

What's so good about this job now? Nothing. It feels smooth, yes, I totaly agree with that. But Job lost it's uniquness, it's gunslinger feel. And, personaly, this dumb robot is totaly out of the place. The turret was better.

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It's smooth, it flows well, it has good busywork during the entire thing that feels impactful and gives an otherwise 2.5s GCD class a frenetic pace, its class theme is dramatically stronger, its burst window is easier to set up and execute because it's no longer utilizing terribly designed job mechanics, the new turret and automaton system feel amazing and less forgettable. And, oh yeah, it beats Summoner at its own game, including as a pet class because the automaton queen doesn't drop GCDs from moving and will falcon punch its way across the map to hit with its autos, in addition to it just flat out having the right amount of skills to track without getting overwhelming or punishing about it.

The only thing Machinist flat out fails at is being lag tolerant.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

What's so good about this job now? Nothing. It feels smooth, yes, I totaly agree with that. But Job lost it's uniquness

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Its uniqueness of being a machinist?
Gadgets and robots should have been the name of the game from the start.
If they wanted it to be a rough and tumble wild west style gunslinger class, they should have called it.... the gunslinger.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

What's so good about this job now? Nothing. It feels smooth, yes, I totaly agree with that. But Job lost it's uniquness, it's gunslinger feel. And, personaly, this dumb robot is totaly out of the place. The turret was better.

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That's exactly why it was reworked.
Gunslinger isn't machinist

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

You're are wrong and don't know what you're talking about. You have to weave at least one Gauss Round and Ricochet to avoid overcapping because the situation where you have more than 20+s on their cooldowns is extremely rare when entering Hypercharge. Besides, avoiding weaving also means that you can't use Wildfire, Queen, Barrel Stabilizer, Tactician or any of your role abilities in Hypercharge which severely limits your flexibility since you're using Hypercharge so often. Also that "minor clipping" at the end of Hypercharge can be the difference between your Drills/Anchors landing outside the raid buff windows for the entire fight. It's bad, annoying and entirely avoidable by designing the job better to account for latency.

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You should be using WF and barel stabilizer in hypercharge. They should be used before.
Also, surprise surprise, you can delay hypercharge without DPS lose. You know it only costs 50 heat and you have 100 at max

All of the new physical range DPS jobs are terrible.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

What's so good about this job now? Nothing. It feels smooth, yes, I totaly agree with that. But Job lost it's uniquness, it's gunslinger feel. And, personaly, this dumb robot is totaly out of the place. The turret was better.

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So... the MACHINIST lost its uniqness of being NOT A MACHINIST ? Because, as far as I remember, "gunslinger" =/= "machinist". But I could be wrong ofc !

Oh and wait, you don't like the robot because it feels sooo out of place for a machinist ? I mean, a machinist controlling a machine sure sounds silly, am I right ?!

Next level logic right here.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

All of the new physical range DPS jobs are terrible.

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Why do you feel that way?

Don’t mean that to sound condescending, just genuinely interested in the issues you’re having with them, since you may not be the only person to feel that way

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Originally Posted by ColaSama

So... the MACHINIST lost its uniqness of being NOT A MACHINIST ? Because, as far as I remember, "gunslinger" =/= "machinist". But I could be wrong ofc !

Oh and wait, you don't like the robot because it feels sooo out of place for a machinist ? I mean, a machinist controlling a machine sure sounds silly, am I right ?!

Next level logic right here.

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Yeah, I can understand if someone likes the 'gunslinger' thing and would prefer that over the plethora of machines it now has. Just as I can see why some people would prefer Bard as a Ranger instead of having songs.

But to say it lost its uniqueness just isn't the right choice of word, it's still a very unique job compared to the others. Even with the tech elements to gun breaker it still feels very unique.

Unless they mean in terms of gameplay mechanics but the post doesn't sound like it's talking about those since it mentions being a gunslinger specifically.

The numbers coming from Savage are not looking good for us. It's very bleak.


What's your take?

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Originally Posted by ArniQQ

The numbers coming from Savage are not looking good for us. It's very bleak.


What's your take?

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Do we have numbers yet?.

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Originally Posted by armandojc3

Do we have numbers yet?.

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It doesn’t prove anything but from a cursory glance at 75th percentiles [THAT SITE], Machinist seems to be sitting at a comfortable position, Bard is very low for how little utility it brings (third last here), and poor Dancer is at the very bottom even after accounting for rDPS.

My uneducated analysis is that Machinist is doing decent while Bard is lagging behind despite being a pure DPS, whilst Dancer is lagging quite far behind for how little personal DPS it offers

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Originally Posted by Connor

It doesn’t prove anything but from a cursory glance at 75th percentiles [THAT SITE], Machinist seems to be sitting at a comfortable position, Bard is very low for how little utility it brings (third last here), and poor Dancer is at the very bottom even after accounting for rDPS.

My uneducated analysis is that Machinist is doing decent while Bard is lagging behind despite being a pure DPS, whilst Dancer is lagging quite far behind for how little personal DPS it offers

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Not really. In the 75th percentile Bard a and MCH are about dead even, and Bards are bringing more to the table. At the 90th percentile, ranged phys dps is 3 of the 4 lowest.

Of course, the isnt that accurate yet, but every job beside NIN is well represented. From the looks of it, this role is bad at the moment.

Havent read the whole thread (just the first page) but I agree, BRD is too much just a ranger at this point. The other two are in a nice place right now at the far end support DNC and the high end dps MCH. I would really like to see BRD get some more utility/song like effects back. Song like effects dont even necessarily have to be raid utility, but there needs to be more actual music connected to the class. It's also really not in a super strong place right now. Its not terribad, but its not great either.

This is just shooting ideas that may be bad here but; maybe three stances the BRD could switch between that werent cooldowns so it really was on need with simple effects coming from their 3 songs? one with a regen, one with a crit bonus, one with an MP restore for when the healers need it. all mild bonuses.
Could even give it an in combat movement speed buff song that would actually allow players to get more dps uptime before escaping, or just escape easier from AOEs in savage. In combat movement speed buff would be both very niche, nice QoL, but not a dps enhancer making it special.
Heck BRDs could even have a specialized esuna if no one wanted to go the regen route. There are so many options that still fit well in the game without unbalancing things that would just make them well... more bardy
Or just add songs that effect their own dps more. A personal speed buff on cooldown associated with a song.

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Originally Posted by ArniQQ

Not really. In the 75th percentile Bard a and MCH are about dead even, and Bards are bringing more to the table. At the 90th percentile, ranged phys dps is 3 of the 4 lowest.

Of course, the isnt that accurate yet, but every job beside NIN is well represented. From the looks of it, this role is bad at the moment.

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I've tried checking again and you're right that Bard and Machinist are about equal at the 75th percentile I used, so at least in terms of balance within the role things seem ok. That said, considering they're using rDPS instead of pDPS, I don't think it's quite right to say that Bards are bringing more to the table than Machinist in regards to utility, even with Battle Voice. I'm not sure if Paean or Minne see any use within Savage, so can't comment on them or whether they'd add dps that isn't considered by the logs. That's not to say that Bard is in any way worse off than Machinist, since it closes any potential gaps with its high personal DPS. And while I do think that the main draw of the job being its fast-paced damage/mobility and not its utility is completely antithetical to what the job is supposed to be, in terms of number balance Bard does fulfill its role well

As for Dancer, even in rDPS they're still the lowest of all the jobs which seems kinda sad. In an ideal world a Dancer would naturally be the lowest in dps but close the gap with it's rDPS, which it doesn't seem to be doing. And as an aside, it's bizarre seeing Ninja right down the bottom with Dancer and Red Mage lol.

Lastly, you're definitely right that in terms of actual representation the ranged physical role is looking to be the most popular role of them all. Currently there are 1660 Dancer logs and 1579 Bard logs. The only job that outdoes them is Dragoon (which is way up at 2475). So numbers aside, there do seem to be a lot of ranged physical DPS being represented right now (though ranged physical has been the most popular role for a while now, particularly Ranger).

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Havent read the whole thread (just the first page) but I agree, BRD is too much just a ranger at this point. The other two are in a nice place right now at the far end support DNC and the high end dps MCH. I would really like to see BRD get some more utility/song like effects back. Song like effects dont even necessarily have to be raid utility, but there needs to be more actual music connected to the class. It's also really not in a super strong place right now. Its not terribad, but its not great either.

This is just shooting ideas that may be bad here but; maybe three stances the BRD could switch between that werent cooldowns so it really was on need with simple effects coming from their 3 songs? one with a regen, one with a crit bonus, one with an MP restore for when the healers need it. all mild bonuses.
Could even give it an in combat movement speed buff song that would actually allow players to get more dps uptime before escaping, or just escape easier from AOEs in savage. In combat movement speed buff would be both very niche, nice QoL, but not a dps enhancer making it special.
Heck BRDs could even have a specialized esuna if no one wanted to go the regen route. There are so many options that still fit well in the game without unbalancing things that would just make them well... more bardy
Or just add songs that effect their own dps more. A personal speed buff on cooldown associated with a song.

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Also this, I've been asking for more Bard-like aspects to the job since it came out, just to see them all be gradually dropped to the point I dropped it as my main completely. As you say there are a load of ways they could have added more 'musical' aspects without messing with balance within the role or making Bard 'compulsary' for raids like it was before. And naturally two jobs within the same role can both offer the same thing ('support') without stepping on each other's toes.
That said, if the aforementioned metrics are anything to go by there are absolutely no indicators to the developers that anyone has any issues with Bard. It does good DPS, and that's all it needs to do. And I mean, I can survive if they don't give it anything related to 'music' or 'songs' because it feels like a lost cause, but the developers really need to just rename the job Ranger and stop selling it as something that it's not. I feel like they've backed themselves into a corner now design-wise where all they really can do to fix it is remove the songs, rename the job and maybe make a real Bard job as a healer or caster dps someday. There's no way we'll get any new abilities between now and the next expansion, and looking at Bard's toolkit now just makes me feel like 'really? that's it?'

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yeah, I can understand if someone likes the 'gunslinger' thing and would prefer that over the plethora of machines it now has. Just as I can see why some people would prefer Bard as a Ranger instead of having songs.

But to say it lost its uniqueness just isn't the right choice of word, it's still a very unique job compared to the others. Even with the tech elements to gun breaker it still feels very unique.

Unless they mean in terms of gameplay mechanics but the post doesn't sound like it's talking about those since it mentions being a gunslinger specifically.

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I gotta say, every time I try to start leveling MCH which was my favorite ranged class for 2 expansions, I keep reaching for my bullets.

There's also some of the MCH quests that I believe pushed the idea of bullets/reloading and I'm not sure they've been redone to compensate for that. In plot that is, I think it's still clearable without the bullets.

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Originally Posted by Super_Smiley

Thank you Final Fantasy XIV development team for making all 3 physical range jobs amazing to play! No need for a overhaul in 6.0. Amazing work!

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This will really depend on your perspective. Traditional MMO-Bards and FF14-bards didn't like the loss of utility aspects and the direction to go away from song buffs, and traditional MMO-rangers totally like it because it's not as focused on support in this expansion and not as support oriented.

IMO, Bard needs to be it's own existance and basically do both and the current iteration fells like they just don't understand their own creation. Like, playing songs should directly affect proc rates and give a 7.5% DH buff and damage reduction, battle voice should double the effects of songs, the soul gauge should be a resource for apex arrow and songs like Warden's with an ability increase similarly to MNK/SAM's (traubadour), and each song should be able to aid the party in it's own way and make use of pitch perfect (MB = mp restoration with rain of blood, Army's could give the haste buff to everyone or increase gauge point generation by 50%, and minuet is just minuet or something), et cetera. OMG, just use the song mechanics of Ballad and minuet, expand on those, and just totally go crazy

And, MCH could really hit harder, and DNC might need a trait that does dmg to all enemies in the aggro table per step in it's Rythm Game mode

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Originally Posted by Connor

Why do you feel that way?

Don’t mean that to sound condescending, just genuinely interested in the issues you’re having with them, since you may not be the only person to feel that way

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The problem with the ranged DPS jobs are that they do not provide enough damage, party utility, or party damage steroids compared to other jobs. Eventually, we are going to see groups switch to 3 melee DPS and 1 BLM, or 2 melee DPS and 2 caster DPS. The 1% party buff is not going to matter if ranged DPS are too weak.

A lot of the decision making with buffing the party were removed from BRD and MCH. If a player just never thought about optimizing Foe Requiem and MP, then those players would not really care. The good Bards tried to figure out the best time to buff the party and managed their MP appropriately. I enjoyed playing a Bard play-style that cared about helping the party out with buffs and utility, versus an insular and selfish game play. I want to actively press buttons to help my group out.

MCH just does not do enough damage and has absolutely no party utility.

The only reason to bring a ranged DPS is if you need to constantly run around at a distance or you need a line Limit Break. Every other DPS job is better in every other scenario.

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Originally Posted by RowanLauron

I'd prefer a ranger job. If we are to have a musical buff support job, turn bard into ranger and bring in songstress.

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No. I can easily argue for them to go back and keep bard as it was cause that IS what it means to be bard and make a ranger. We don't need a songstress, we need a bard that actually does what bards are supposed to do.