[SPOILERS] The Fate of Ascians

I rather have Hydralian explain because she got some explaining to do I suppect she be montor are progress on first aswell

through I think nearly impossible to bring more warrior of light to the firsts.

I like see how we start out and how we got on chocobo wagon I think it be interesting part of mainline quest. I think the scion are pretty accept of the warrior of light if the whole story brought to light I think they won't turn on us or anything like that. it maybe that the servant of Zodiark may tried turn them against the warrior of light this may happen

Been finding a lot of juicy info lately.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/0ab4767a...75fd1f7e2f.jpg

First, a fan managed to catch this screenshot. Looks like Emet-Selch's soul has in fact been sundered into seven pieces. The fan who caught this also noted that during the fight as he's saying stuff like "you have no power over me" and "you seek to shatter my soul", it sounds like Hydaelyn might have been making some moves through that whole fight without our being aware.

At this point, while sure I could be wrong, I am willing to bet that one of the fragments goes to the Source and zips into one of the Solus clones Emet-Selch has been stockpiling. Even if his memories get messed from sundering, the body is familiar.

Additionally, I think earlier had some discussion on how our soul was breaking apart. I think conservation of matter rules would apply to souls, and since we as WoL have been rejoined seven times pre-Ardbert (so an 8-fold soul at that point) I honestly think what would have happened if our soul had outright broken is that we would have re-sundered. Being rejoined an eighth time reinforced and stabilized things, but it's not like our soul would have stopped existing.

I also have been rewatching old cutscenes and found something potentially crazy. Scene is "What Little Gods Are Made Of", cutscene #2 where we get a lesson in how death and rebirth work.

Explanation is:

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MINFILIA: Let us begin at what some might call the end. When we who dwell in the material realm die, our spirits dissolve into the flow of aether, and we are returned to the aetherial realm.

In turn, the restless energy which suffuses that plane streams back into our world, giving rise to new life.

URIANGER: 'Tis as the heavens did decree--the way of all mortal souls.

'Twixt this world and the next do the aetherial currents swirl, bearing the very essence of life. Thus doth the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth continue unabated.

MINFILIA: Primals behave somewhat differently. In order to manifest and then maintain a physical presence in this realm, they must consume vast quantities of aether, most often in the form of crystals. Though they may seem to live, their flesh is but aether given shape.

Thus the defeated primal leaves behind no broken corpse--rather, the essence of its form seeps back into the land whence it came, and the energy of its shattered spirit is called back into the aetherial realm.

URIANGER: And there it waiteth till next the prayers of the faithful do draw it forth from the sea of aether to take their offering of crystals and make for itself a new body...

MINFILIA: Which brings us on to the third group. These so-called "immortals". They exist in a manner all their own.

Y'SHTOLA: Quite. Even as the Sahagin elder fell to the Admiral's musket shot, I witnessed the release of an aetherial cloud which immediately took possession of a nearby minion.

URIANGER: A soul that dissipateth not upon the death of the flesh...

THANCRED: The secret of life everlasting. And in the claws of a Sahagin, no less. But I wonder: what would happen to one of these obstinate spirits should there be no suitable host for it to claim?

MINFILIA: If mortal death entails a return to the aetherial realm, it seems doubtful that the soul of an immortal would venture there.

URIANGER: Nay, it merely withdraweth a distance. Unto the shore of the aetherial sea, perchance, but no further.

MINFILIA: Yes, it exists in neither this realm nor the next, abiding instead in the space that lies between them.

The Ascians took control of Thancred by means of a Crystal of Darkness--an artifact which, if our theories are correct, serves as a gateway to the place I have just described.

THANCRED: I was hoping people had forgotten about that...

MINFILIA: I am sorry, my friend.

URIANGER: For a mercy, the weary road of our research hath brought us unto an answer.

Y'SHTOLA: The Sahagin ascended to an immortal state, but he did not possess a Crystal of Darkness through which to flee this realm. Thus was he consumed by Leviathan.

If we could entrap the spirits of defeated Ascians in like manner, and thereby deny them resurrection...

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Given all of this info, here's what I got.

Lahabrea is doing something unbelievably weird, because his Crystal of Darkness shattered when a Blade of Light was used on him while he was possessing Thancred. This did not kill him. I stress this because the Warriors of Darkness doing weird sacrifices with their own crystals effectively killed them, plus black masked Ascians got shown dying in connection with their crystals shattering. Lahabrea was then blasted by Hydaelyn personally, using the connections of the WoL and various friends and allies. Again, he 100% is confirmed to have lived through that without the Crystal of Darkness he was using to possess Thancred. We as WoL have more than one Crystal of Light in our possession confirmed as per defeating primals so conceivably Lahabrea could have had spares, but idek. I also am wondering at this point if the Crystals of Light might reflect the number of times our soul has rejoined (we have six primals + initial Ascian fight crystal, + Ardbert's Crystal presumably) but am unsure of that.

Anyway.

We have since learned that aether and souls are not synonymous (IIRC, haven't hunted down the bit where that got explained again yet), plus even outside of Ascians and tricky Sahagin there are beings whose souls linger after death. These being the undead and the fae specifically, who basically chill incorporeal in the material realm while slowly stockpiling aether from the environment around them to regain physical forms. We also know that returning to the aetherial sea does not equate to no longer existing or not having a soul/identity anymore. Primals still exist within the aetherial sea waiting to be summoned again, Ysayle aand Haurchefant showed up while yanking Nidhogg's eyes off of Estinien. Worth keeping in mind.

If Lahabrea has a spare Crystal of Darkness or some other means of not dying permanently despite the Thancred situation, when Thordan tried to eat him claiming that a soul is just aether? My impression is Thordan was technically incorrect. He did consume Lahabrea's aether and it probably really sucked a lot for him, but there's no reason to think his soul would have been destroyed by that. Wasn't trapped by auracite, wasn't sundered by a Blade of Light... the biggest obstacle would be whether his soul could flee to the shore of the aetherial sea, but he apparently somehow managed after Hydaelyn personally blasted him.

At this point I seriously don't know where he is or what he's doing, and I do think whatever happened he successfully convinced Elidibus he's dead. But idek anymore.

Also, since I know some people question whether it's reasonable to use past info as more lore gets brought in... I'm gonna argue that even if the plan wasn't totally known when certain elements were introduced, SE seems pretty careful to build upon elements like that retroactively without contradicting them.

Lahabrea could be stowing away in Zenos, since Zenos merged with Shinryu who had the eye of Nidhogg which had Lahabrea's aether in it. After all of that the guy is probably not doing great but his presence could explain why Zenos was able to use a synthetic Echo to body jump so easily, since we know that's Lahabrea's favorite move.

As to how any of Lahabrea could possibly have survived all of that...

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The above two posts are intriguing to me. I'll preface by saying I'm as big a fan of the Ascians as they come, and have begrudgingly reconciled myself to the fact that they will only ever go as far as serving as antagonists, albeit with a sympathetic backstory, much as I wish I had the option of taking their side. I also enjoyed Emet-Selch as a character and he ranks as one of my top FF character picks.

With that said, the last thing I would like to see them do in his case is try bring him back through any sundered remnants assuming control over his clones. He had a fittingly epic conclusion and got a measure of closure upon his death. It'd feel rather tawdry for them to just bring back some fragmented, lesser version of him. It seems logical to assume Hydaelyn may have played a role in the fight, given his words (and also given that her Blessing is a direct form of assistance to the WoL), and in a monomaniacal bid to sunder all unbroken lifeforms, inflicted such a fate on him, but even so I hope they know when to call it a day and just let the character leave the scene.

Lahabrea, on the other hand, I felt did not get the treatment he deserved and I'd have liked to see more from him. As unlikely as it may seem, I am receptive to the notion that he did not die when absorbed by the Eyes of Nidhogg, for two simple reasons: 1) we know from Emet-Selch just how powerful these unbroken Overlords are, so whilst it's not entirely clear which would win out between the hungering Eye and a soul of this nature, it's not a foregone conclusion that the latter would be destroyed in the process, even if it ended up temporarily draining him and 2) like Jaywalker mentions, none of the usual steps necessary to slay the Ascian were taken (for similar reasons, I don't believe Mitron or Emmerololth are gone, either.) We just assume his aether was consumed, but as Jaywalker notes there's a relation between the two but they're not identical with one another; they're just coextensive. Powerful though an elder dragon's eyes may be, so is an unbroken Ascian Overlord, as well as being highly resilient.

Zenos appears very much to be acting of his own accord - for now - but assuming Lahabrea was not consumed by the Eye in question, and was able to somehow preserve himself in Shinryu, it'd certainly provide a plausible transmission vehicle to Zenos. For all the Resonance is hyped up to be, we still defeated Zenos well before we faced Elidibus in his body. I'm also convinced that all Elidibus is getting to when he refers to being "overwhelmed" by him is the ability Zenos has to assert control over his body and not much more than that. The Resonance clearly altered it in a way that fascinated Elidibus, and probably enhanced the connection between the soul and the body in the way the Echo might do, but that is all it really amounts to - his bid to merge with one of the two gods will likely prove to be his undoing and the pinnacle of his hubris.

I had put his "resurrection" down to the blade he had used perhaps having some ability to serve as a "vessel" for his soul, but it'd be intriguing indeed if Lahabrea was the actual culprit behind such a feat, without Zenos even realising it. Now there is the question of how he'd hide it from Elidibus but it may not be as straightforward as we think it is with all the layers of abstraction and separation that have inserted themselves in the process. Normally an Overlord can discern the colour of one's soul but what would it even look like in this case? Very interesting prospect, if true!

I'm also looking forward to who this "Oracle of Darkness" will be, if it's an actual thing. The Hand of Erebos (links to ancient Greek mythology and specifically Hades and the underworld, as well as darkness) and the masks of the summoned entities in the raid all hint at something of an Ascian nature, and the timed magic of course seems to be a wink at a certain Sorceress. Could be the Overlord Altima perhaps, if they want to push through with some Ultimecia reference? Or perhaps some wildcard.

He wasnt killed he was sundered, that's hydaelyns special move, the ability to split souls. She cant kill a person but she split his soul into fragments and he will be reborn like the WOL, with no memory of the past or the things that made him him, he will just be attuned to zodiark like we are attuned to hydaelyn. Pretty simple yo.

Hydaelyn’s, maybe, but the technique the Scions invented is something else. It’s speculative whether it’s what happened to Emet-Selch, especially given the hole in his chest from the auracite, and definitely not what occurred to Lahabrea.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

With that said, the last thing I would like to see them do in his case is try bring him back through any sundered remnants assuming control over his clones. He had a fittingly epic conclusion and got a measure of closure upon his death. It'd feel rather tawdry for them to just bring back some fragmented, lesser version of him. It seems logical to assume Hydaelyn may have played a role in the fight, given his words (and also given that her Blessing is a direct form of assistance to the WoL), and in a monomaniacal bid to sunder all unbroken lifeforms, inflicted such a fate on him, but even so I hope they know when to call it a day and just let the character leave the scene.

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Hey Lauront! First wanna say loved reading your notes lol. :D While I don't have as much to add on Lahabrea, Zenos, and Elidibus as now (although I think it'll be interesting to see whether Lahabrea comes back like a badass or covered in primal digestive juices going YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE WHAT I'VE BEEN THROUGH if he returns lol), do wanna say it was really thought provoking and will be keeping it in mind as the MSQ continues to unfold.

On Emet-Selch, I do have a different stance but both respect yours and originally was of a similar mind on it tbh. Part of why I would have been particularly hesitant on any sort of amnesia/return-sundered-in-a-clone is because there is a risk of being redundant in the story with Yotsuyuu. Doesn't have to be, there are ways to make things parallels instead, but it's something of a gamble narratively speaking. I also think that if the story did close for Emet-Selch with him confirmed as sundered and deceased it would be fine as an end... except his clones were too prominent, plus the situation with Unei, Doga, and Xande lol. But overall it strikes me as a "more than one way to skin a cat" sort of thing where many approaches could work.

Besides clone foreshadowing, the main reason I disagree is because I think that there's some seriously, seriously interesting story potential in terms of addressing other aspects of Emet-Selch's character as well as Elidibus' and maybe Lahabrea's. I think this can expand Emet's character arc in a way that reads as natural and explores questions he raised for the first Shadowbringers arc.

Through Shadowbringers so far, Emet-Selch has introduced big moral questions. He considers himself innocent of genocide because he doesn't believe the fragmented souls of ancients count as alive. This has shaped several millenia of experience for him. He has a LOT of blood on his hands in the name of trying to resurrect the Amaurotines. Like I said before, I personally have questions on whether he arrived at that stance because he couldn't imagine surviving in a world where Amaurot was gone forever (especially as an immortal) but the requirement of genocide like he enabled was also impossible for him to deal with. The problem, in reality, is extremely messy and his solution too neat for me to entirely believe it.

I also, personally, think it was cruel for him to live as long as he did with all of his memories in a way. The Scions and the Warrior of Light are shown to struggle on how to answer Emet-Selch philosophically on the worth of a fragmented existence when the natural state for them was immortal and living in a carefully conformist utopia. I think that answer is extremely important though, and I think the answer is that there are some lessons that can only be learned through facing limitations. One of those limitations is death. I also think that possibly what happened with the Terminus event might be because the ancients had no coping mechanisms that come from facing the freedoms and hardships of mortal life and limited power. An errant thought of theirs could dramatically shape the outcome of one of their creations, and as a result they wound up incredibly repressed.

If Emet-Selch gets placed in a clone, I think (given precedence) it's likely he would have some memory inhibition. I don't know that it would be 100% amnesia on all fronts (although it could be), but he probably wouldn't have access to every detail of the past 12,000+ years. Part of my reasoning here is that getting put into an infant body, there's only so much information that can be retained. Babies literally are not developed enough to walk, speak, or get object permanence lol. Placed in a familiar, adult Garlean form though I don't know that that would be the case. He might be able to hold onto some things. That would help a bit in terms of not being Yotsuyuu.

Additionally, I think it's very likely his tempering was broken by being sundered. Free of that while being limited to fleshy mortal life could raise some serious and important questions for him given his stance before being struck down and while tempered. He might actually have to look at the messy answer that he was sacrificing one group of innocent people for another.

There are questions, too, about how much accountability is in play with tempering versus without. There are points where Lahabrea basically seems out-of-his-mind on par with a thrall of Ifrit, and while Emet-Selch is dismissive on his own status I don't think his opinion is particularly trustworthy there. Thralls of lesser primals like Leviathan and Ifrit are no longer considered themselves and get killed out of necessity. It's the reason there was so much suspense surrounding Gabu. Zodiark outclassing every other primal we've encountered short of Hydaelyn, I suspect the only reason Emet-Selch wasn't outright drooling and chanting was probably because he was an unsundered Ascian in the first place. Lahabrea, particularly given his expertise in creation magics, was probably in a more central proximity during the whole event and got hit harder.

There's also potential for insanely interesting exchanges between a sundered Emet-Selch and unsundered Elidibus--possibly also Lahabrea if he lives. I'm currently suspicious on whether Elidibus has something weird going on in terms of tempering given he talks more about balance than Zodiark. Maybe he has the Echo. Especially if that's the case, there's room to foil perspectives between no-longer-tempered/sundered Emet-Selch, more moderate Elidibus, and Zodiark-is-my-master Lahabrea.

Basically, I think there could be value in letting one of Emet-Selch's seven fragments experience real mortality as a clone without tempering in play, with more room for perspective given both limits of memory and direct experience.

Really hope this makes sense!

If he was sundered, and does come back, like the WoL, would he then be a true WoD? It would be reasonable to assume he would have the echo of some sort, but if his soul is already claimed by zodiarc, Hydi may not be able to claim him. Its pretty reasonable to assume we come from the troup of ascians that summoned her, if not as high ranking as emet himself, perhaps that 14th member that disappeared, and since her claim on us survived, Zodiarc's claim on Emet would have as well.

Remember, technically we have no past, unless you want to rp one. So who is to say we did not suddenly come into existence and just don't realize it. We could easily have body jumped or just been manifested by Hydi. Since we are x7 rejoined we could have regained a few ascian tricks. So the WoD version of Emet could do the same just sans memory. It would not be unheard of us to run into him again then at some point and our echos colliding in a way that could unlock his memory and then....who knows.

I also think the ascian who was partially there that we had a convo with is going to play a bigger role at some point. That was just too out of blue of something to bring up if it wasn't going to go anywhere.

I think it has been full reveal once hydrlean reveal the past it be come more clean who warrior of light was and is why she/he is need again. I think hydralean has been quite for to long it time she must speak soon to reveal the muddy mess that has been made.

here is my theory what happen the scion find out the the wol is more then what they seem they demand answer yet because the wol have none they look to Hydralean for them

hydralean role is more then people think

see Zodark is the bring of death and Hydralean is now the bring of life. she exist to protect life if ascianian have power to write the rules of all creation then they would make them the oppiste of each other. Zodark became hunger for soul because of this he became hunger them so he must be stop. while Hydralean became able create aether which use to create life

Zodark won't give back what he has consume the ascian have become Zealous think they get for him what the never get back. once you start feed soul to Zodark he get taste for them and won't give them back

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

*snip*

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It makes sense, I think, and it's food for thought, but I guess we would prefer rather different eventualities out of the MSQ.

I’ll admit I do differ from some Ascian sympathists in that I like them precisely because I enjoy factions like the Sith, and saw similar undercurrents in them, where you have a core philosophical disagreement/incompatibility with the supposed “good” guys, strengthened by their embrace of darkness.

I generally find their rationale for the Rejoinings to be logical and though they may have blood on their hands, the key issue is that it’s not blood of lifeforms they acknowledge as equivalent. Say what you will about the merits of various animal rights arguments but the Ascian position is not too different to human exceptionalist positions vis-à-vis the rest of the animal kingdom. Then you add to this that the Sundering was inflicted upon them and that the aether being siphoned off by Hydaelyn was not aether they’d rightly regard as hers, and their position makes perfect sense, to me. You can take it further and go into the nature of ethics itself (e.g. predicated on social conventions or absolutes, etc), though that is probably getting beyond the scope of this game.

With that out the way, I am not keen on Emet-Selch being sundered and then re-entering the plot. We already know from the sundered Overlords that their perspective does not fundamentally change and that the tempering survived it, which is logical because all that is occurring is the fracturing/division of their souls and not their remaking. There doesn’t really appear to be much in the way of amnesia. Not in the same way as there is with the WoL. We don't know why that is yet, and I am sure we will learn more of Amaurot's history in due course, whether through Hythlodaeus or not. Although they could make an exception for Emet-Selch, it certainly would not jive with what we know of the Sundering's effects on the Overlords.

Simply forcing him to endure “limitations” is a narrative of a kind I am familiar with, though I will confess I’m not entirely amenable to such plotlines. Sort of like putting a man in a cat’s body. It’s interesting… up to a point. Yet the sundered Overlords are already in such a position. By all appearances, they recall the world as it once was and their unbroken states. If his tempering were to go, it may remove his affinity to Zodiark, but at the same time their entire agenda is about more than just Zodiark, but the restoration of their world and those sacrificed. The crux of it is the cost which that entails – one they deem worth bearing. I also think their logic's merits stands or falls independently of any shift in personal perspective resulting from the sundering - it may well get a similar response from the unbroken as the Scions got out of Emet-Selch, especially if Elidibus thinks it's just the sundering which has altered his perspective.

As to the Terminus event, although I’ve contemplated something similar to what you posit (albeit on slightly different lines), whatever the cause and true nature of it was, instilling a god in the centre of the star appears to have… terminated it. Ultimately you have two options that they appear to have been willing to consider once the decision to summon a god in the star was made – 1) keep the god and their powers and perhaps subject themselves to some further controls, maybe through tempering, in order to prevent a recurrence of the unintended side effect or 2) sunder all existence to the point that such powers are not a threat and thus less regulation is required. By the sounds of it, 2 is what Hydaelyn was intended to do and not to merely counterbalance Zodiark, although what’s less clear is whether it was an evolving plan or whether it began this way.) Not everyone will consider 1) or 2) desirable but in either case there is a losing party.

Finally, as for Lahabrea, I just put it down to a quirk of his personality and how long he’s been at this game. If they reduce it to a mere side-effect of tempering, the question then arises as to what of Hydaelyn’s summoners? There is a lot of arbitrariness in this and they could just write it so that she was summoned so as not to temper, but I find that too convenient and removes any tough decisions with regard to her in the process. Whilst in Lahabrea’s case it could all come down to tempering, I’d rather they did not go down that route. My suspicion is that Zodiark was his pet project and that’s why he’s so passionate about his restoration. Whereas for the other Ascians (or at least their majority), it had a more utilitarian function.

At this point I’d rather they just harnessed Elidibus for further interaction with the protagonist and expanded on why his approach and perspective differ somewhat from the other Ascians without mere recourse to “degrees” of tempering. Whilst I understand the yearning for more out of Emet-Selch, my preference would be for exploring his character further through glimpses into his past.

My preferred outcome would be for it to be necessary for the “cosmic balance” for both darkness and light to be in balance through the presence of the respective deities (and the knowledge that Zodiark could be summoned on new terms), but it’s unlikely, IMO, that they’ll go with this route, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

*snippity snip*

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Read through everything and considered some, just want to let you know that while I can't reply at the moment hopefully in a few hours I'll be able to! Will edit this post once I can. For now just want to say part of what was neat going through your reply, I think we may have dramatically different interpretations on the Ascians versus mortals. Not a bad thing (can be really interesting in fact!), but also ends up leading to diverging notions for story trajectories. Just wanna letcha know in advance, while I'm gonna explain the position I have and why I have it later--I mean it more as comparing notes for fun than an attempt to convert.

EDIT: Haven't forgotten, but wound up not having time to nail whole response today! Working on it though.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Looks like Emet-Selch's soul has in fact been sundered into seven pieces.

At this point, while sure I could be wrong, I am willing to bet that one of the fragments goes to the Source and zips into one of the Solus clones Emet-Selch has been stockpiling. Even if his memories get messed from sundering, the body is familiar.

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I buy this theory. Why else would they show seven large pieces floating away instead of a cloud of aether dust? They don't use this effect when the Lightwardens are defeated or when Nabriales/Igeyorhm get shattered inside white auracite. The only other datapoint we have of an unsundered Ascian being killed is Lahabrea, but he just gets absorbed into Nidhogg's eye so hard to make a comparison there (I think it's less likely that Laha's alive given he was fused into Thordan and then Shinryu and would now be in Zenos I suppose, but who knows :confused:).

Also the clones are super suspicious. Emet's mentioned that it's harder to take over a body with a soul in it hence why clones are useful. But after we found out they existed in 4.4 nothing interesting has been done with them yet.

So either those are two big unintentional red herrings or Emet will be back (tm). If so I hope we get to see more of a grey side to him, I doubt he's coming back as a straight villain since he'll have been demoted to ordinary Ascian power levels after being sundered.