I'd like to talk about the powerscaling of Zenos vs WoL

Zenos' ability to use rudimentary magicks / enchanted weapons is, as is explained in the Chronicles of Light book (supposedly; this is secondhand info), due to the fact he embedded a crystal into his palm to force his body to release aether. His magical abilities aren't linked to Resonance.

Yes and no... his story in Chronicles of Light ends with him taking the crystal out of his palm and dropping on the corpse of the guy he killed with it. Who just so happened to be the guy who taught him a lot of his crazy sword tricks. It ends with him admitting to himself that the fun part of the entire thing was hunting down a way to beat the guy and being disappointed it turned out to be that easy. And Zenos is like... fourteen at the time.

It is definetly the story of him learning just how big a difference magic and aether manipulation make in fights and him figuring out a way for a Garlean to temperately use magic. He just doesn't have a lot of control over it and gives up that particular method at the end. From what we see of the Resoance, it's just the logical end he's reached in figuring out how to permanently give Garleans aether manipulation that is permanent.

Yeah, the crystal was a temporary thing, when we fight him any magic he uses is due to the resonance. That was the point of the experiment from one of the few lines the doctor guy gets before being killed in Ala Mhigo. What a waste of a character IMO.

On the topic of why Zenos's and Fordola's Resonance doesn't work like Krile's Echo, I don't think that the person providing the Echo template really matters. The Echo is the same in EVERYONE who has it. What differs, is how they use the Echo - and different people work out different ways to use it, most often accidentally.

It may even be the case that anyone with the Echo could do what anyone else who has the Echo can do, if only they're able to master it. A bit like giving computers to a bunch of cavemen; poking around, they might each find different things they can do with it, but each has the potential to do anything anyone else can do.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The Echo is the same in EVERYONE who has it.

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This isn't the case. In 1.0, it was a little more specific, that some people had some abilities, but not all. There was a lalafell, for example, who had the Power to Transcend Words; this was our standard babelfish power. Minfilia, on the other hand, did not possess this power and needed an interpreter to understand the Sylphs who petitioned the Path of the Twelve for aid. (She likely had the Power to Transcend Time and walk in the memories of others; I can't recall if she confirmed it for us specifically.) The Warrior of Light possesses both of these qualities and the Power to Transcend Worlds and visit Hydaelyn in the Aetherial Sea (as of 2.0).

The EE1 itself breaks down and names these powers. The Power to Transcend Words/Time/Worlds--and is writ in a way which supports that someone might have one Power but not another; specifically that the Power to Transcend Worlds is rare, this seems to imply it's rare among Echo users. Of course, if the Echo manifested exactly the same in every person, there wouldn't be this rarity. The Power to Transcend Worlds definitely would've shortened a lot of the mystery inherent in 1.0's original scenario.

And finally, perhaps, the smoking gun of it all from 3.1's In the Eye of the Beholder MSQ:

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Originally Posted by Krile, Student of Baldesion, the organization created to study the Echo

No two manifestations of the Echo are alike. I, for example, can converse with beings of every shape and size─excepting beasts, contrary to what others would have you believe. Language has nothing to do with it, of course; rather, I am sensitive to the whispers of the soul. Their intent, their very essence even─the traces of which served to guide the elementals to Y'shtola.

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The Echo is NOT the same across the board amongst everyone who possesses it. They've strung this point along now since the very beginnings of the reveal of the power, and I can't even begin to believe they've reneged this from 1.0 when they mention it in Heavensward. The unifying feature of these powers is that the Echo is "the power to transcend" (literally, sometimes, in Japanese), and that they "break down the barrier between souls;" however to claim that it is inherently the same in everyone feels disingenuous. Realistically, if you could learn to control the manifestation of the Echo, that's what the Path and the Scions might've done, right? Those without the Power of Words learn it from those with, and so on--but that possibility has never been explored or hinted, as far as I can recall.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

the smoking gun of it all from 3.1

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Originally Posted by Krile

No two manifestations of the Echo are alike. I, for example, can converse with beings of every shape and size─excepting beasts, contrary to what others would have you believe. Language has nothing to do with it, of course; rather, I am sensitive to the whispers of the soul. Their intent, their very essence even─the traces of which served to guide the elementals to Y'shtola.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I had read this as [Urianger] catching onto that Krile's ability to see aetherial traces with the Echo was copied onto [Fordola].

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Originally Posted by Urianger

I surmised that Fordola may be possessed of a preternatural ability to divine meaning from the fluctuations of an individual’s aether, and to instinctively react. To employ a metaphor, one might say that she was attuned to the whispers of my lady Alisaie’s soul.

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/10angstycharacters

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Yes and no... his story in Chronicles of Light ends with him taking the crystal out of his palm and dropping on the corpse of the guy he killed with it. Who just so happened to be the guy who taught him a lot of his crazy sword tricks. It ends with him admitting to himself that the fun part of the entire thing was hunting down a way to beat the guy and being disappointed it turned out to be that easy. And Zenos is like... fourteen at the time.

It is definetly the story of him learning just how big a difference magic and aether manipulation make in fights and him figuring out a way for a Garlean to temperately use magic. He just doesn't have a lot of control over it and gives up that particular method at the end. From what we see of the Resoance, it's just the logical end he's reached in figuring out how to permanently give Garleans aether manipulation that is permanent.

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Ahem. I stand corrected (having the full story - or a Cliff's Notes version of it - definitely helps), but that doesn't preclude the possibility of Zenos getting his ability to manipulate aether from another source. I can't remember or reference which, but one of Zenos' bios states that he's augmented beyond the normal limits of what a Garlean can do, implicitly before he ever appears on screen. (If aetherial manipulation is necessary to use his enchanted katanas' special powers, he'd have to be.)

It could be Resonance, of course, but that raises the question of why he needed to capture Krile if he already had an Echo-capable aetherial wavelength sample to copy.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

The Echo is NOT the same across the board amongst everyone who possesses it. They've strung this point along now since the very beginnings of the reveal of the power, and I can't even begin to believe they've reneged this from 1.0 when they mention it in Heavensward. The unifying feature of these powers is that the Echo is "the power to transcend" (literally, sometimes, in Japanese), and that they "break down the barrier between souls;" however to claim that it is inherently the same in everyone feels disingenuous. Realistically, if you could learn to control the manifestation of the Echo, that's what the Path and the Scions might've done, right? Those without the Power of Words learn it from those with, and so on--but that possibility has never been explored or hinted, as far as I can recall.

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And English for that matter. It's one of Zenos's lines during the fight in Ala Mhigo, I think after the aether transfer phase.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

And English for that matter. It's one of Zenos's lines during the fight in Ala Mhigo, I think after the aether transfer phase.

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It's literally his call for "Storm, Swell, Sword" (his super).

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Originally Posted by Rocl

*snip*

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Perhaps I did not express it clearly, but what you are saying is pretty much what I was trying to get across. The Echo is the same in everyone. How they express it is what differs.

Think of it like the "mutant gene" in the X-men. There's just one gene that matters. If you have the gene, you're a mutant. If you don't, you're not. However, the mutation caused by the gene is different in pretty much everyone who has it.

The Echo is the mutant gene. It's exactly the same in everyone who has it, but how it is expressed varies from person to person. So, you could transfer the Echo from Krile into six different people, and get six different manifestations of the Echo, rather than six different people who have Krile's Echo abilities.

This was all in response to the question someone asked about why Fordola's abilities are so different from Krile's when Fordola's Echo was copied from Krile's.

I DID, however, also postulate that it may be possible for a skilled Echo user to harness their Echo in ways other than those they discover naturally. The in-game evidence is scarce, and is mostly based on some of the stuff Elidibus said in his first appearance. He seems to imply that Minfilia's mastery of the Echo is imperfect, and that if she was in full mastery of it, she would be able to see him as he truly is (and, for that matter, agree with his point of view). The "ability to see Ascians" (albeit crudely) seems to be an ability all Echo users possess, which does NOT tie in with their "Echo specialty". So, on an individual basis, Echo-bearers already are shown to have powers beyond what they're known for, and likely all of them lack "mastery" as an Ascian would see it.

It could even be implying that fully mastering the Echo is how you BECOME an Ascian. At that point, you would be able to do anything that any Echo user could do, and likely much more, besides. It is at that point that you fully comprehend the "unnatural" state of the cosmos, and realize that it MUST be corrected, no matter the cost - or, at least, that is the conclusion that Elidibus and the other Ascians have come to. If there are fully-mastered Echo users who have not reached that conclusion and become Ascians, they are not nearly as meddlesome. (Perhaps the Twelve? Fully-mastered Echo users who have reached an even greater state of clarity than the Ascians, and meddle infrequently, understanding that meddling generally causes more harm than good?)

This all moves well away from the "mutant gene" analogy, and well into the realm of speculation. However, I don't believe any text, even from 1.0, explicitly dismisses the possibility that Echo users could learn to use their Echo in new ways. Every Echo user has abilities that come naturally to them, but can they learn other ways to use it, as well? Elidibus certainly seemed to feel that Minfilia had room to grow as an Echo user.

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Originally Posted by griffinborn

Like we DBZ fans always say: powerlevels are bullshit!

There's no denying our individual growth. We as WoL make mistakes and can learn from them, but it can be hard to portray being silent protagonists. We probably have our inner thoughts about feeling inadequate and not being able to save our friends.

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If you haven't already, I highly recommend the DRK quest line. The 60-70 stuff touches on this to a degree as well as what the WoL actually feels as a person and not just a hero.