The Last Races

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

it doesnt make sense for au ra girls to be half the size of the males along with a miriad other racial tomfoollery but here we are on moon logic island

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tbh that does make sense in most species in the world males or double the size than females but with some species the female is double the size of males.

People really should learn history ,biology before saying something doesn't make sense

the only thing in races that dont make sense is how soft the males look and males only being 2inchs taller than females lol.

Plus if we were going to be realism the only female warriors,drk would be roe and highlander lol

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

As someone who is fat in real life I don't see why anyone would want a fat body shape for their character. Not only is it not pleasant to look at, trying to do battle or anything like our characters do in game would be bending the laws of reality even more than I'M comfortable with lol.

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I’ve always wanted to make my character fat. As unrealistic as it is, that’s how I want him.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

tbh that does make sense in most species in the world males or double the size than females but with some species the female is double the size of males.

People really should learn history ,biology before saying something doesn't make sense

the only thing in races that dont make sense is how soft the males look and males only being 2inchs taller than females lol.

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while that holds true for most of the animal kingdom, there is a reason humans (you know, the closest thing we have to the races ffxiv) have evolved to be within about a foot tall of eachother. we also dont have tails and other stuff. im just saying that ppl who yell about realism are reaaaaally specific about where they draw that line. also arent a lot of female reptiles the bigger ones?

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

That said, prob that kind of race would run into similar critiques to what elezen receive. Gotta know how to manage proportions and different clothing fits to maximize aesthetic. It's basically hard mode of design haha.

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The thing is "aesthetic" and "proportion" are subjective and players mostly based it on how they are for human in real life (and even this has been changing overtime and largely influenced by the media) even tho the characters in the game are not human.
Elezen, Roegadyn, or Lalafell might not be proportionate by human standards, but they are proportionate by their own race's standards.

People said that male Roe look ridiculous and disproportionate in gears, mostly healer/caster gears, but I personally found a lot of gears (including some healer/caster gears) looks the best on Roe. =D
I also think some of the gears looks weird on lalafell, but some people might fight them cute.
So it's all subjective. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Fland

The thing is "aesthetic" and "proportion" are subjective and players mostly based it on how they are for human in real life (and even this has been changing overtime and largely influenced by the media) even tho the characters in the game are not human.
Elezen, Roegadyn, or Lalafell might not be proportionate by human standards, but they are proportionate by their own race's standards.

People said that male Roe look ridiculous and disproportionate in gears, mostly healer/caster gears, but I personally found a lot of gears (including some healer/caster gears) looks the best on Roe. =D
I also think some of the gears looks weird on lalafell, but some people might fight them cute.
So it's all subjective. /shrug

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Fland, I am so sorry. This hit the button that unleashes my hardcore creative nerding. I just want you to know in advance that it isn't personal and I do get u with different preferences on all this stuff. Preferences are totally subjective and I'm absolutely not immune on that front. But I think there is a massive difference between preference and overall principle/craftsmanship in art, which I'd class as somewhat more objective. Not perfectly objective, but mostly. I also 100% would categorize fashion as an art.

Brace urself for some tl;dr madness.

I recognize there is currently a postmodern idea circulating on how various concepts and norms are artificially imposed through society. Personally, I think that approach neglects and simplifies not only the intricacies of cultural development but of human instinct as well. Those things aren't arbitrary and stem from concrete, measurable factors. Stuff like fashion and what is considered desirable can shift from culture to culture at different times, but those changes reflect elements including (but not limited to) health, inconvenience, expense, scarcity, environment, etc.

Fashion, as an art form, does reflect some negotiation between the choices of individuals and what those choices communicate to others. This plus the literal and cultural landscapes surrounding fashion plays a huge role in how fashion can be judged. We learn about resources, economic standing, social hierarchy, climate, and more by looking at each other. We can even at times tell someone's mood and self-image from how they dress.

Proportion is not subjective so much. It literally refers to how big and small body parts are relative to other body parts. Human beings are capable of a limited (but still varied) range in body proportions short of deformity. The final fantasy characters, while humanoid, play with our expectations of proportions and occasionally push to or past the limit. Some races, like lalafells, take a more cartoony approach that can be accepted at face value as unrealistic. If you know the uncanny valley principal, there's a space between something passing as totally human (considered appealing) and being far enough from human that we no longer judge appearance by human standards (also appealing). That middle space drops sharply at a certain point and becomes disturbing. It's too realistic to be taken as cartoony (with alternate expectations) but it doesn't measure up to what we consider a healthy human being either. Humans instinctively react as if there is a potential health hazard in this zone. As such, subjects falling within that valley experience some negative response.

When it comes to Elezen for example, their heads look proportionately small compared to both their shoulders and their height. This can be balanced visually using certain hairdos, but when people react negatively to Elezen and call them ugly or creepy--it's probably a reaction to the uncanny valley principle. I'd argue that Elezen are barely in the uncanny valley and can still look great, but I'm also very aware that without addressing the proportion oddities they're not going to appeal as much to most viewers.

Aesthetic, I primarily use to refer to the tone cultivated by visuals. In this instance I said it casually to refer to conventional beauty standards. Beauty standards might shift between cultures but they remain real, measurable, and (I'd argue) positive enough. It's possible to engage effectively with beauty standards without embodying the beauty standard's "ideal" in every single way. Further, imo the beauty standard ideal doesn't always reflect what every single person in a culture will personally prefer. It's more of a concept than something that needs to be embodied perfectly. Seeing how people who diverge from the "ideal" engage with beauty standards can generate some of the most gorgeous, inventive, and interesting styles imo. It's about how people direct the viewer's attention across their body (similarly observable in visual art) and emphasize/de-emphasize various features. When someone is particularly skilled in navigating this through fashion, provided they are not at a hugely unhealthy extreme they will usually receive positive attention for it.

Pretending fashion doesn't exist and opting out is like saying society and culture don't exist. No person is a vacuum so of course those things are still there. Even if you throw on old sweats full of holes, you're still communicating your choice and conveying information about yourself to others.

Tone is generated by understanding the interaction of human instinct and culture. Taking fashion as an art, there might be different traditions and preferences but you can absolutely still gauge whether the overall craftsmanship works or doesn't. You can prefer something that is poor craftsmanship or dislike something that is high craftsmanship, but the technical side of evaluation is still there and can be judged in a largely consistent way.

Finishing up, for what it's worth people are still totally free to disagree with me and I won't take it to heart! I don't know everything, just tend to speak in firmer language when analyzing. Fully aware this is opinion stuff, and while I might believe it strongly I've changed my mind before haha.

Also there are definitely some great looking Roe casters/awkward looking lalas in the world too. :)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

With the amount that our characters' bodies can already clip through themselves during certain poses... it possibly could be.

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This is more of a technical issue. And like you said, it's already present in current body shape.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Tone is generated by understanding the interaction of human instinct and culture. Taking fashion as an art, there might be different traditions and preferences but you can absolutely still gauge whether the overall craftsmanship works or doesn't. You can prefer something that is poor craftsmanship or dislike something that is high craftsmanship, but the technical side of evaluation is still there and can be judged in a largely consistent way.

Finishing up, for what it's worth people are still totally free to disagree with me and I won't take it to heart! I don't know everything, just tend to speak in firmer language when analyzing. Fully aware this is opinion stuff, and while I might believe it strongly I've changed my mind before haha.

Also there are definitely some great looking Roe casters/awkward looking lalas in the world too. :)

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Hmm.. even if they manage to make a proportionate bigger body shape and gears whose craftsmanship objectively suitable to them, some people would still not find them aesthetically pleasing. So I guess subjectivity is still in play here.

But hopefully, SE will consider this overall craftsmanship objectivity like you said, and not discouraged by the possible subjectivity that comes with it, when they decide to try experimenting with bigger body shape.

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Originally Posted by Fland

Hmm.. even if they manage to make a proportionate bigger body shape and gears whose craftsmanship objectively suitable to them, some people would still not find them aesthetically pleasing. So I guess subjectivity is still in play here.

But hopefully, SE will consider this overall craftsmanship objectivity like you said, and not discouraged by the possible subjectivity that comes with it, when they decide to try experimenting with bigger body shape.

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Yup! Like I mentioned, some of the most beautiful and interesting visuals can come from not 100% embodying a beauty ideal but still engaging in creative dialogue with it. :D That's why I mentioned how I still figure Elezen can be beautiful for example, they might be more challenging to navigate in some ways relative to the stuff I mentioned but that doesn't mean the results are less impressive or fun. It's just more "hard mode" in some ways. Hyur midlanders, miqo'te in-general, and au ra play more into conventional proportions so makes sense to me that their overall popularity is higher. Most things will fit and look good for them. There are still hugely popular elezen characters though for example, even if the race gets played less often. And the variation is still valuable imo, you can create some really powerful tonal impacts with body type variation. Male Roegadyn and Highlanders have some of the most imposing visual potential in the game, and imo there's value to that. It's also possible to play with and subvert those body type expectations in fun, memorable ways. 100% possible to pull off a gentle giant visual.

I think Hrothgar were a little bit of a gamble for SE because they are farther from the human side of things, but they're also kind of like lalafells where they're inhuman enough that I doubt they'll suffer for it. They're not being judged on human terms so much. The serious question on how much they're willing to break with expectations/conventions will come from if they're willing to do slim-and-pretty bunny boys and equally animalistic female hrothgar, since those types aren't seen as often. If they do those and find success (which I suspect they will), then down the line they might be open to continued experimentation.

Here's hoping!

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

tbh that does make sense in most species in the world males or double the size than females but with some species the female is double the size of males.

People really should learn history ,biology before saying something doesn't make sense

the only thing in races that dont make sense is how soft the males look and males only being 2inchs taller than females lol.

Plus if we were going to be realism the only female warriors,drk would be roe and highlander lol

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>says people need to learn more biology and history

"its weird that males and females are similar heights, that males look soft (whatever that actually means), and only larger race females could be warriors."

in the animal kingdom, most species have drastically larger females than males with a few key exceptions. beetles and other iinsects sometimes take it a step further with them looking drastically different as well.

reptiles frequently also follow this trend of larger females, so if anything the size disparity in au ra should be reversed. none of that matters of course because all races in this game are human like in nature and human size variation typically is not that drastic.

just give us the other genders.

I want a cute dog race so I hope these are not the last race.

I refuse to believe any race is the last one until the day we get Lupin.

They're already rigged with most animations just with how they function as enemies in the story, come on SE.