Make Viera and Hrothgar non-binary / gender-neutral?

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Originally Posted by Endeleon

He literally said intersex doesn't exist but....sure jan.

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Where is he saying that exactly in his post ? Can you quote the exact line ?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Which comprise what % of the population, exactly?



Their lore isn't written that way. So the game has already "assumed" for Viera.

Regarding that second article, I'd like to see you explain it clearly, rather than just linking it, because there is plenty of ideological fluff/propaganda masquerading as and using the language of science.

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I...don't see how that matters? 1.7% of the world population is some degree of intersex, without getting into the percentage of non-binary individuals, which is higher because, again gender =/= sex. Which is for real world statistics, and again, it has no bearing in this game. I was correcting someone who erroneously claimed there's only two sexes. My previous post in here is how I don't see SE making a non-binary race, even if I'd be okay with it. I'd rather see the male Viera and, if a non-binary/gender-neutral race is made in the future, I'd be okay with it.

How about no instead. That seems easier and far less volatile thing to do. Just need to look around for a bit, and done! SE didn't do it. Easy and no worm cans opened.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I...don't see how that matters? 1.7% of the world population is some degree of intersex, without getting into the percentage of non-binary individuals, which is higher because, again gender =/= sex. Which is for real world statistics, and again, it has no bearing in this game. I was correcting someone who erroneously claimed there's only two sexes. My previous post in here is how I don't see SE making a non-binary race, even if I'd be okay with it. I'd rather see the male Viera and, if a non-binary/gender-neutral race is made in the future, I'd be okay with it.

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It matters because a small percentage is an EXCEPTION, not a RULE. There are humans that are born with one arm, a half an arm, and hands attached directly to their shoulders, do we start saying the amount of arms humans have is a spectrum now?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

You're asking me to summarize an article from nature (one of the world's leading academic journals), that's already a summary of a very complex subject.
The article explains it clearly. That's why I linked that specific article. With nice real life examples (e.g. a guy who had kids, and also had a womb).

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Nah, I'm asking you to explain it, in your own words, because I have a sneaky suspicion it's just the first scientific-sounding article that came up when you googled the topic. It’s more that what people like you try to do is jump from a statistical anomaly and then hammer people when they point out that the vast, vast majority of the world does slot into the two sex paradigm.

But thanks for your generous offer, however I rather doubt the ability of someone spreading themselves so thinly over so many areas of inquiry, which take even the most intelligent individuals years to master for just one of them, to offer much of an education in the area. It'd lead a person less motivated by good faith to think one might be dealing with a troll.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I...don't see how that matters? 1.7% of the world population is some degree of intersex, without getting into the percentage of non-binary individuals, which is higher because, again gender =/= sex. Which is for real world statistics, and again, it has no bearing in this game. I was correcting someone who erroneously claimed there's only two sexes. My previous post in here is how I don't see SE making a non-binary race, even if I'd be okay with it. I'd rather see the male Viera and, if a non-binary/gender-neutral race is made in the future, I'd be okay with it.

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Agreed, it has no bearing on the game, as for all intents and purposes it might go as low as 0% for the playable races.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Nah, I'm asking you to explain it, in your own words, because I have a sneaky suspicion it's just the first scientific-sounding article that came up when you googled the topic. It’s more that what people like you try to do is jump from a statistical anomaly and then hammer people when they point out that the vast, vast majority of the world does slot into the two sex paradigm.

But thanks for your generous offer, however I rather doubt the ability of someone spreading themselves so thinly over so many areas of inquiry, which take even the most intelligent individuals years to master for just one of them, to offer much of an education in the area. It'd lead a person less motivated by good faith to think one might be dealing with a troll.

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My academic background is in neuroscience and psychology.
So while I'm not a specialist in molecular genetics or biochem, I have a background in them, as it's necessary to understand my field.

The vast majority of the world only slots into the 2-sex paradigm based on heuristical gender stereotypes (not science).
Defining sex at a genetic level isn't as clear cut as a y-chromosome. There is a lot of nuance. And evidence suggests it's a spectrum rather than binary.
There's obviously a bimodal distribution with 2 peaks. But that doesn't mean there isn't anything inbetween.
And then if you believe in evolution, you have to accept that genetic difference is a normal part of being human.
So if some intersex people exist (and they do), that means by definition sex isn't binary.
You can't discount 1-in-100 statistical anomalies (they matter just as much as everyone else).
For example, some people are double-jointed (hypermobility). And hypermobility is likely heritable. We don't start claiming that people who are double-jointed don't matter or don't exist.

The article I linked explains that the way science looks at sex is different from they way society looks at sex.
It talks about people who have a specific set of chromosomes (e.g. XX/female) but have sexual anatomy from the opposite gender.
It talks about how sexual characteristics can potentially change throughout one's lifetime (e.g. ppl with 5-alpha reductase deficiency often display as stereotypically female until puberty)
It talks about how recent evidence suggests we all have a diverse range of cells (some female, some male) further complicating definitions of sex.
It talks about rarer cases of this being very apparent (e.g. mosaicism, chimaerism)
It talks about how XX and XY cells can influence our biological functions (and mentions ongoing research in the area)
And it talks about ethics surrounding the scientific shift towards understanding sex as a spectrum (specifically in regards to newly born intersex children).

Again, lots of evidence from different fields of biology all showing that sex is not binary.

But this has little to do with the post. And like I said, if you have questions, ask me in game.
It's a complex topic, and a few lines isn't going to accurately represent it (hence linking to a longer nuanced article).

Regardless, diversity in a game isn't a bad thing.
Giving people more choice isn't going to hurt anyone.
Especially if it can be done with minimal effort on the development side (e.g. keeping existing models)

No, better don't do that.

Then the question would be asked why Viera is the exception rather than the other races who also would have those outliners that also fall into this group? Perhaps if the character creator wasn't limited and was updated to allow for full body manipulation for design, and all 'pronouns' were removed - then yet again, perhaps. But we both know that isn't going to happen.

There is already an issue with male Viera being what they are according to some in the eastern culture - why? I do not know. I am not from the east; they have a different culture - even if I don't agree with the statement of male Viera being weird. Anyway, if they think that male Viera is weird, then I can assure you that 'non-binary' characters are even weirder to them.

And as someone has stated, gender is very much important for Viera due to the matriarchy. The two change appearance in regards to puberty - which can be said of a lot of youths; I'm sure plenty of us have come across young children for which you can't tell their gender. The twins are a prime example of this; there are many more where the 'youths' of Eorzea could pass for male and female - only their clothes and eyelashes seem to set them.

I also don't believe they would 'chose' their gender; especially one which has them ripped away from their families and forced into a lifestyle which will ultimately kill them in the process to achieve mastery or doom them to a life of solitude, especially when there are female wood wailers who do not have to suffer such a fate.

No, I suspect adding in the other gender would be less work for them - and of course; there is the other matter. Yeah, this is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened just yet - not here. Not when we're still battling to have races not to be gender locked.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Let people define their character's gender for themselves instead of defining it for them.

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Or..... Pick a female or male race and just say you're non-binary? Isn't that how it's done in real life?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Don't list the gender for either race.

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No, we're not doing that shit here, this isn't Tumblr.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Have some masculine-esque facial choices for Viera

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Just play a female roe with bunny ears. Simple.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

And some feminine-esque facial choices for Hrothgar

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Just play a muscular Highlander with Tamamo Ears.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

And add hair options that allow players to make male-looking or female-looking characters of each race.

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Just play the other races.

How bout no.

Oh sweet baby jesus no.

No, no, no, no, no, a thousand times no. No times no divided by no to the power of oh hell no!

Nah, I want both genders, plus it just creates a whole lot of other potential abuse scenarios.

Yeah this is definitely NOT the answer.

Sorry but no. I play a video game to fight monsters and make friends, not to worry about genders or someone’s pronouns. Half the time I don’t even pay attention to someone’s character unless they have a cool glamour.

Not to derail the conversation, but as a Japanese playing a game published and made in Japan, I have to point out that the country is far, far from the progressive nature most of the NA is. Japan doesn't recognize same sex marriages, and it even makes transgender people get sterilized (have surgery to remove the organs born with and then have organs that look like the gender they identify with) before they are legally allowed to get a name change/gender change papers. I don't mean to rain on people's parade, but JPN is very much more about conformity to societal norms and I highly, highly doubt anything like this would ever be allowed. The same thing goes for the non-gendered (sp) pronouns -- there are already soooo many tons of different pronouns we have to use depending on someone's age, rank, relationship to us, etc. that adding new ones even in the game wouldn't make sense and would just confuse people (at least confuse many non-English speakers, I'd think). To quote Yoshida in his recent article interview today: "This is a difficult era"

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Originally Posted by Hugowulf

Sorry but no. I play a video game to fight monsters and make friends, not to worry about genders or someone’s pronouns. Half the time I don’t even pay attention to someone’s character unless they have a cool glamour.

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I suppose if it was a random person you could ignore their gender? Unless you feel the need to know everyone's gender when you run by them?
Or you know, if it was a friend, you could ask....

I'm pretty sure asking about someone's preferred pronouns is a lot easier than running a dungeon/raid. So if you can handle fighting monsters and making friends, i'm sure you're perfectly capable of asking a simple question.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Rather than having female Viera and male Hrothgar, why not just keep the existing body models, but give us variety in facial design and chest size?

Let people define their character's gender for themselves instead of defining it for them.
Don't list the gender for either race.
Have some masculine-esque facial choices for Viera
And some feminine-esque facial choices for Hrothgar
And add hair options that allow players to make male-looking or female-looking characters of each race.

This solves the "lack of resources" problem.
But also gives players the flexibility to play as whatever gender or identity they prefer.

It might require a bit of tweaking gear-wise (e.g. chests for viera), but at least it will give people more flexibility in how they play the game.

More flexibility and choice is always good (not SJW propaganda).

And lore can be updated to have both races as gender neutral (males and females are culturally similar in body-type and clothing).
And/or to have viera/hrothgar quests about non-binary life choices (in a respectful way).

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there is way too much in the game atm that would have to be change to accommodate that would make this a feasible option

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Or you know, if it was a friend, you could ask....

I'm pretty sure asking about someone's preferred pronouns is a lot easier than running a dungeon/raid. So if you can handle fighting monsters and making friends, i'm sure you're perfectly capable of asking a simple question.

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Do not bring silly pronouns into a game. Your gender does NOT matter in a game, stop trying to make it seem like it's more important then content itself.

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Originally Posted by Pixelburst

Do not bring silly pronouns into a game. Your gender does NOT matter in a game, stop trying to make it seem like it's more important then content itself.

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They aren't silly to the people who are using them.
You may not agree with them but that doesn't mean you should disrespect people who feel they are a necessary part of their self-expression.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I suppose if it was a random person you could ignore their gender? Unless you feel the need to know everyone's gender when you run by them?
Or you know, if it was a friend, you could ask....

I'm pretty sure asking about someone's preferred pronouns is a lot easier than running a dungeon/raid. So if you can handle fighting monsters and making friends, i'm sure you're perfectly capable of asking a simple question.

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I always refer to people by the pronouns of their character- manroe is he, femroe she etc. I couldn't care less about who someone is in real life, or how they identify in real life.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

They aren't silly to the people who are using them.
You may not agree with them but that doesn't mean you should disrespect people who feel they are a necessary part of their self-expression.

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I'm here to play a video game, I don't care about your gender.

I could care less about your politics. Keep pronoun business out of games.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I suppose if it was a random person you could ignore their gender? Unless you feel the need to know everyone's gender when you run by them?
Or you know, if it was a friend, you could ask....

I'm pretty sure asking about someone's preferred pronouns is a lot easier than running a dungeon/raid. So if you can handle fighting monsters and making friends, i'm sure you're perfectly capable of asking a simple question.

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How is asking all that nonsense any easier than just saying your name and asking if you could do x for me. That is very unnecessary. If I have a close friend that likes to share personal stuff, I don’t mind listening. I get that it’s important for someone to have these pronouns in their lives and that’s great. It just feels like if you don’t get catered to because of this, it’s automatically super disrespectful.

Plz keep modern western ideologies that are ultimately flawed out of this issue. Your only make things worst not better.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Rather than having female Viera and male Hrothgar, why not just keep the existing body models, but give us variety in facial design and chest size?

Let people define their character's gender for themselves instead of defining it for them.
Don't list the gender for either race.
Have some masculine-esque facial choices for Viera
And some feminine-esque facial choices for Hrothgar
And add hair options that allow players to make male-looking or female-looking characters of each race.

This solves the "lack of resources" problem.
But also gives players the flexibility to play as whatever gender or identity they prefer.

It might require a bit of tweaking gear-wise (e.g. chests for viera), but at least it will give people more flexibility in how they play the game.

More flexibility and choice is always good (not SJW propaganda).

And lore can be updated to have both races as gender neutral (males and females are culturally similar in body-type and clothing).
And/or to have viera/hrothgar quests about non-binary life choices (in a respectful way).

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But then nobody would have a stepping stool for their arguments, they would just have to accept that they just didn't get what they wanted and that it has nothing to do with sexism at all, it's just a sensitive topic they can flail around for attention. People should be ashamed of themselves for trying to use sexism and lgbtq as means to get what they want.

No. Make your own game with pretend genders.

I wished we had male and female for both races cause it would have gave us more customization , with that being said, I certainly don't want this game to turn towards SJW gender politics so I'd rather keep things as male and female instead of some combination of them rolled into one.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Not to derail the conversation, but as a Japanese playing a game published and made in Japan, I have to point out that the country is far, far from the progressive nature most of the NA is. Japan doesn't recognize same sex marriages, and it even makes transgender people get sterilized (have surgery to remove the organs born with and then have organs that look like the gender they identify with) before they are legally allowed to get a name change/gender change papers. I don't mean to rain on people's parade, but JPN is very much more about conformity to societal norms and I highly, highly doubt anything like this would ever be allowed. The same thing goes for the non-gendered (sp) pronouns -- there are already soooo many tons of different pronouns we have to use depending on someone's age, rank, relationship to us, etc. that adding new ones even in the game wouldn't make sense and would just confuse people (at least confuse many non-English speakers, I'd think). To quote Yoshida in his recent article interview today: "This is a difficult era"

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To be honest, most of the NA playerbase isn't a bastion of progressiveness either.

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Originally Posted by DiscoDuck

No. Make your own game with pretend genders.

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Literally all genders are pretend.

Would be neat, but wouldn't that require a lot more extra since didn't they say making the male buddy outfit was sort of a pain? I highly doubt they would put in the effort to make a non binary race without lifting the gender restrictions on gear. Since they have yet to the latter I doubt they would put in the effort to make a non binary race. Though a neat idea.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Literally all genders are pretend.

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Please keep the progressive agenda out of this game.

Due to the way gear works, along with poses and other things, I think its best we just get a male bunny and female hrothgar.

We could also, you know, leave them the genders that they are and hope that their gender counterparts get added at some point. We don't need to push this sorta thing in a video game world, we really don't.

Wow from reading this thread it makes me feel sick thinking of how many people here would harass me or berate me for being nonbinary. People say FFXIV has the best community or something but I'm not seeing that right now. It's unfortunate how viscous people get as soon as someone says "gender".

Sorry OP, your idea sounds nice, but look at the people you're talking to. They want more genders for in-game races but "don't care about your character's gender". Somehow.

I can't tell if OP was serious or not, if so.. This is a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Wow from reading this thread it makes me feel sick thinking of how many people here would harass me or berate me for being nonbinary. People say FFXIV has the best community or something but I'm not seeing that right now. It's unfortunate how viscous people get as soon as someone says "gender".

Sorry OP, your idea sounds nice, but look at the people you're talking to. They want more genders for in-game races but "don't care about your character's gender". Somehow.

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I'm sorry that people don't share the same opinion and view point as you do. Also the community overall is very good. You are entering a heated topic so of course there is going to be some choice words thrown around. I think you are being unnecessarily sensitive about this. People are trying to insert themselves and their view points into the game and onto others. Its selfish overall.

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Originally Posted by Pixelburst

Just play a female roe with bunny ears. Simple.

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I do actually think something like this would at least help satiate people. If we had a more realistic-looking pair of bunny ears (think Tamamo or Werewolf headpieces), that might allow people to sort of create the facade of...sort of male-ish Viera (or buff girl bunnies, whatever)?

It ain't fixing the "Genderlock? In my 2019?!" problem, but it's something.

https://i.imgur.com/QKcISZF.png

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Let people define their character's gender for themselves instead of defining it for them.

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With all due respect, there is a reason Japan respects traditional gender roles, and it is not "they aren't progressive enough." It is "don't fix what isn't broken."

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Literally all genders are pretend.

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If all genders are pretend, then why should we take them this seriously?