Please seperate the Relic Weapon and Eureka weapon in 5.0

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

If Eureka content is doing so well and is liked, it should be able to stand on its own. It can still have its own weapon and gear attached to it and I think that is fine.


But please, don't stuff the relic weapon into it again. Please let the relic quest and weapon be its own thing and not shoved into content that many people dislike.


If Eureka can't hold up with having the relic weapon in it, then improve Eureka instead of forcing people that don't want to be in there to go in there.

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Sadly they will. They are this lvl of stupid and all the people that go there when hateing it as well

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I did. I still disagree with it.

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Im sorry to hear that.

I'm willing to think most people would be interested in more interesting and experimental level geometry in general. Seriously are you not tired of plain levels of square and circular shapes?

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Im sorry to hear that.

I'm willing to think most people would be interested in more interesting and experimental level geometry in general. Seriously are you not tired of plain levels of square and circular shapes?

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Not particularly. I’d rather have interesting boss mechanics and harder fights in general over playing around with the Z-axis tbh. Honestly, for raids, I’d rather them return to actual raids over boss fights. But people complained about trash so...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

But people complained about trash so...

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People complained about the bloody Faust fights being such a roadblock to the actual raid.

It is not fun to time out without even getting to fight the actual boss, because of an obnoxiously high dps check of a fight that caused the current meta of DPS, tough DPS, and green DPS. Faust had zero interesting parts, it was just "hit the tank really hard and spawn adds"

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

People complained about the bloody Faust fights being such a roadblock to the actual raid.

It is not fun to time out without even getting to fight the actual boss, because of an obnoxiously high dps check of a fight that caused the current meta of DPS, tough DPS, and green DPS. Faust had zero interesting parts, it was just "hit the tank really hard and spawn adds"

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You're also forgetting that Gordias as a whole was poorly tested and overtuned for what gear was actually available. I don't believe this was an issue with Creator and Faust-Z. That being said, I wasn't even referring to Faust.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You're also forgetting that Gordias as a whole was poorly tested and overtuned for what gear was actually available. I don't believe this was an issue with Creator and Faust-Z. That being said, I wasn't even referring to Faust.

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Well, it's the only trash mob I've seen in raids while they were still iLevel relevant, so it's the only thing I can refer to as "trash mobs in raids".

If they were interesting and not obnoxiously overtuned, people might be more receptive to them. But if they're just a beefgate that just adds an extra layer of tediousness to a time out... yeah, can't say there's a reason for them to return.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Well, it's the only trash mob I've seen in raids while they were still iLevel relevant, so it's the only thing I can refer to as "trash mobs in raids".

If they were interesting and not obnoxiously overtuned, people might be more receptive to them. But if they're just a beefgate that just adds an extra layer of tediousness to a time out... yeah, can't say there's a reason for them to return.

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While I could imagine Faust in Gordias causing some sort of hurdle due to overtuning (which the developers did admit they failed to properly test Gordias), I doubt that Faust-Z in Creator was that large of a wall - it's the easiest tier, save for Deltascape, that this game has seen. Considering I dipped my toes into Savage starting with Creator and never had any issues with him. However, I believe if a group cannot beat a properly tuned gatekeeper, they probably aren't ready for the actual boss yet; and a part of me likes that sort of gatekeeping in Savage.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

While I could imagine Faust in Gordias causing some sort of hurdle due to overtuning (which the developers did admit they failed to properly test Gordias), I doubt that Faust-Z in Creator was that large of a wall - it's the easiest tier, save for Deltascape, that this game has seen. Considering I dipped my toes into Savage starting with Creator and never had any issues with him. However, I believe if a group cannot beat a properly tuned gatekeeper, they probably aren't ready for the actual boss yet; and a part of me likes that sort of gatekeeping in Savage.

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I can see the logic there, but ... it just doesn't seem like it contributes to fun.

There's a difference to being unable to beat a DPS check halfway through the fight, and being unable to beat a DPS check before the fight begins. You don't get to see any mechanics or learn from them, you just pour 100% into either (a) DPS, (b) healing off his erratic tankbusters and raidwide attacks, or (c) timing cooldowns to protect you from those increasingly powerful erratic tankbusters.

And it's barely a few minutes. I don't like being written off because I haven't gotten a high iLevel. I get enough of that from party finder.

This is all my subjective opinion though. Maybe I'm just a trash PUG tank that hasn't gotten a static since Deltascape.

I like working on a relic. Specifically, I love the ARR and HW relics because they revitalize dungeons and give incentive to use the duty finder, even if I dislike some aspects of these relics. Locking relics behind Eureka in SB was awful for many reasons, and the primary reason I did Eureka was for the relic. I didn't enjoy this path though. "I did the others, so I guess I'll try this..." If it's connected to Eureka or Eureka-like content once again, I will not fall into this trap again. You can have a separate weapon that spawns from Eureka, but please have a weapon-line based on dungeons and tomestones once again.

If there is a 5.0 Eureka then it'll more than likely be tied to the relic again.

Gear in this game simply isn't interesting enough for a unique and useful weapon to exist alongside a more traditional relic and the raid and trial options.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

but please have a weapon-line based on dungeons and tomestones once again.

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You have it, it's called Tome Gear.

I would prefer the older style of relic weapon quests. However, Eureka could remain source of unique job specific gear. The first set of armor could be dyeable AF4 and relatively easy to obtain, but further stages could come with a different appearance, cosmetic effects and more materia slots.

The weapon never seemed like a core point of Eureka because it was all about the exploration and history of the place. I feel like swapping the weapon grind for a gear grind wouldn't make a big difference to the Eureka experience. My suggestion would allow players with either content preference to get something cool that takes a lot of work.

If it's "Eureka-like" in the sense of an instance for multiplayers and off the limits of FFXIV content, I'm ok with it. Eureka has nice map design, players interaction, logos system and unusual situations. That's the fun part in my opinion.

If it's "Eureka-like" in the sense of uninspired grinding, punishing system, then I agree it should not hold the relics. Not for a second expansion at least.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not particularly. I’d rather have interesting boss mechanics and harder fights in general over playing around with the Z-axis tbh. Honestly, for raids, I’d rather them return to actual raids over boss fights. But people complained about trash so...

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Interesting raid mechanics can still involve the Z-axis in some ways tbh. Coil 1 involving jumping on/off glowing panels to spawn or avoiding spawning adds for Cad to eat was pretty neat. Heck, fixate/kiting mechanics haven't been used since Coil IIRC. We haven't had a raid vehicle since Gordias 2. Stormblood raids were watered-down "stack here, Star-of-David this at exact points around the arena, brute force raid buster with Cure III that" all throughout the expansion.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Interesting raid mechanics can still involve the Z-axis in some ways tbh. Coil 1 involving jumping on/off glowing panels to spawn or avoiding spawning adds for Cad to eat was pretty neat.

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exactly this, i hope we get something that's not a circle or square.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

We haven't had a raid vehicle since Gordias 2.

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Technically, we did in Sigma 2.0, but Air Force being properly integrated is subjective.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Technically, we did in Delta 2.0, but Air Force being properly integrated is subjective.

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If jobs still had knockbacks we wouldn't have even needed that. I'm not really sure that counts.

Gordias was a floater in a lot of ways but I think 2 was actually a fight done right there.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

If jobs still had knockbacks we wouldn't have even needed that.

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Jobs still have knockbacks.

I'd honestly rather farm umbrites again than have another Eureka style relic weapon in 5.0. Because as boring the tomesink was, I at least had multiple options on how to get the tomes, most of them being things I was already doing anyway in game.
ALSO the old Relic and Anima weapon systems allowed you to work on multiple steps in preparation after finishing the first one, unlike Eureka. (for example: you can already prepare items like umbrites, aether oils and active clusters for a weapon still in the unidentified items stage, but you can't work on a pagos weapon while in pyros ect)

It's funny to me that so many people keep saying they don't want the relic in Eureka because they want a weapon to aim for outside of said content... but we already have those... Tome weapons and Savage weapons, we also have Primal weapons. I understand that many people don't like Eureka, while many still do enjoy it today (like myself). I'm not trying to be that guy who's all "Then don't do it" but at the same time, I wish more people would realize that their are other avenues for high tier weapons aside from Relics, which are meant to be tedious time consuming tasks for those who would like an alternative to doing more challenging content.

Let the people who enjoy Eureka (yes there are actually quite a few of us, you just don't realize it because the ones who enjoy it aren't as loud as the ones who dislike it) continue to play this type of content. There are a lot of other types of content available for different types of players in this game. I personally feel like even if the "PERFECT" content was implemented, people would still find something to complain about. Either there wasn't enough carrots to warrant doing it, or to many carrots are locked behind it and people who didn't want to do said content would either have to wait to buy it from the MB, or would actually have to do it themselves to get it.

I personally liked the relic line this go around. It was not nearly as tedious as running expert a million times and using tomes, or gil sinking for items that are ONLY used for the relic. This relic was actually REALLY easy to get, it just took some dedication.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Jobs still have knockbacks.

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Am I missing any outside of MCH and WHM? We had a MCH in our raid group but never actually tried him using Blank on the necessary wind mob. I have a feeling it wouldn't have worked anyway. I miss interactions like that, though I know double BRD/double PLD meta in first Coil because of silence wasn't looked at favorably by either the devs or the community.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I doubt Eureka will continue into ShB.
However this isn't because it was failed content. Quite the opposite. It was content people liked (well Pagos was....) for the most part.
It actively had people in there all the time, still does at the time of this post. All regions! I might go Penty farming later today in fact.

The reason I don't think it's going to continue is the same reason Diadem didn't continue. Again, not because it was failed content (and that arguably was), it's because they learn from what they did, and carry on to improve later objectives.
Diadem, Diadem 2, and all the versions of Eureka are teaching the devs what people like to do in these things. They get more creative with each rendition. Pyros was hella fun.

So while Eureka won't continue, something else will surely take it's place.

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Seems very popular to me in spite of the sages on this forum predicting anemos would be dead in a month when everyone got to 20. I personally enjoy it. Thats not to say I want to see a repeat of Eureka in Shadowbringers. I would hope the relic quest will be different from what it's been in the past. What i don't want to see in another tome grind into oblivion in order to earn one.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Seems very popular to me in spite of the sages on this forum predicting anemos would be dead in a month when everyone got to 20. I personally enjoy it. Thats not to say I want to see a repeat of Eureka in Shadowbringers. I would hope the relic quest will be different from what it's been in the past. What i don't want to see in another tome grind into oblivion in order to earn one.

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Anemos was fine, Pagos I will not touch it with a 10 foot pole.

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Originally Posted by Jonnara

Anemos was fine, Pagos I will not touch it with a 10 foot pole.

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I actually enjoyed pagos. Leveled a number of toons there. Sorry but I thought the additional challenge of getting around was fine. They've nerfed it now so it's a lot easier for those who didn't want to do it. Spawn rates and aether levels make it pretty easy now.

I wouldn't be opposed to open world content in Shadowbringers but I would also hope it wouldn't just be a rehash of Eureka Stormblood with a new coat of paint. We'll have to wait and see what they have in mind.

I'd be cool either way. Maybe make it able to progress faster in totallynotDiadem 3.0 so that there is still an incentive to play in there, but also make it so you can progress it outside of totallynotDiadem 3.0 for people who still want to do the relic but want additional options.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

If jobs still had knockbacks we wouldn't have even needed that. I'm not really sure that counts.

Gordias was a floater in a lot of ways but I think 2 was actually a fight done right there.

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The easterlilies in o6s weren't affected by anything other than Typhon, iirc. So having a knockback wouldn't have done much good. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain Fluid Aura and Blank had no effect of them.

That being said, I think he was referring to the Air Force mount players were supposed to get in to avoid the earthquake, but that could be heavily shielded through to keep uptime. Not Typhon.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The easterlilies in o6s weren't affected by anything other than Typhon, iirc. So having a knockback wouldn't have done much good. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain Fluid Aura and Blank had no effect of them.

That being said, I think he was referring to the Air Force mount players were supposed to get in to avoid the earthquake, but that could be heavily shielded through to keep uptime. Not Typhon.

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I liked the paint gimmick of O6S but I sort of wish it had been utilized a bit better, or that you could "combine" paint colors to have even more tools to deal with mechanics. It was a really underutilized idea, IMO. Maybe it'll come back for another raid.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The easterlilies in o6s weren't affected by anything other than Typhon, iirc. So having a knockback wouldn't have done much good. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain Fluid Aura and Blank had no effect of them.

That being said, I think he was referring to the Air Force mount players were supposed to get in to avoid the earthquake, but that could be heavily shielded through to keep uptime. Not Typhon.

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Yes, I was.

Dunno why I wrote Delta, it's Sigma.

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Originally Posted by Jonnara

Anemos was fine, Pagos I will not touch it with a 10 foot pole.

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Pagos is fine now, I might even go so far as to say it's my favourite of the three. It's much more newbie friendly now that the TP points have been adjusted too.

Everyone raves about Pyros but it feels incredibly overrated to me, I found logograms more annoying than interesting, and these days 90% of the instance just AFKs in town.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You have it, it's called Tome Gear.

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Cool, then let's just scrap Eureka's weapon outright. I mean, it's not like the weapons scale past I300 there, right?

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Am I missing any outside of MCH and WHM?

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Technically, SMN too. As far as I recall, the only change in knockbacks skills in SB was the removal of the potency, so nothing was changed on the effect itself and the jobs that can do it.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

Cool, then let's just scrap Eureka's weapon outright.

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You asked for a weapon to buy with tomestones...there is already a weapon to buy with tomestones...alongside a full set of armor and accessories. The game doesn't need two rewards for the same currency, especially when one of them is both cheaper and stronger, and already send you through instanced content of your choice and raids.

Since tome gear is more than enough to give you access to everything, nothing is restricted because of Eureka. If you want the weapon for the specific skin, then it's no different from every other weapon. So, if you want a PvP weapon, a Primal weapon, a Savage weapon or a Ultimate Weapon, you just have to do the corresponding content. And, if it wasn't clear enough, calling it a Eureka weapon might be a hint for the related content, you know ?

The relic isn't a tome weapon.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

The relic isn't a tome weapon.

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I would argue that the 2.x and 3.x relics were, in fact, tome weapons.

The only relic thus far not requiring any tomes in its creation is the eureka weapon.

For the most part I enjoyed Anemos and Pyros. However once Pagos came it was a nightmare.

My main issue is that with place like Eureka you have to invest large amounts of time in one sitting to get things done. For the other relics I could do a quick 15-20 minute dungeon here or a fate there to progress. It was very time friendly and that is what made the relic weapon unique. Eureka weapons are the exact opposite and their time sink can be toxic.

I hope the next relic is done right.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I would argue that the 2.x and 3.x relics were, in fact, tome weapons.

The only relic thus far not requiring any tomes in its creation is the eureka weapon.

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Tomes needed for less than half the steps is a far cry from "just a tome weapon." Tomes were mostly used as a catch-up mechanic for parts of the relic that were more grindy.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Tomes needed for less than half the steps is a far cry from "just a tome weapon." Tomes were mostly used as a catch-up mechanic for parts of the relic that were more grindy.

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Yet, it took far more tomes than required for a standard tome weapon. the arr weapon took over 10000 for 1 step!

Also, many of the steps could only be completed with tomes. There was no other way to get the thavnarian mists for the original relic, or books.

I don't really understand the hate towards the relic being tied to Eureka? I've spent far less time in Eureka to get one relic to current max than I did farming the same dungeon over and over for tomestones or light. Cause ya that was fun.. Sure Anemos was a little boring and pagos released in a bad state but pyros is pretty fun and the other 2 zones have been nerfed some. I spent a week taking my relic from final anemos step to final pyros step. I'm still rolling for stats, but even currently its fairly decent. I guess what I like about Eureka is the party chat that happens and the shout chat usually. Who has time to chat when speed running the same savage dungeon for light.. So I'd be fine with a eureka like content for relic or whatever shiny.

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Originally Posted by Aeloria

I don't really understand the hate towards the relic being tied to Eureka? I've spent far less time in Eureka to get one relic to current max than I did farming the same dungeon over and over for tomestones or light. Cause ya that was fun.. Sure Anemos was a little boring and pagos released in a bad state but pyros is pretty fun and the other 2 zones have been nerfed some. I spent a week taking my relic from final anemos step to final pyros step. I'm still rolling for stats, but even currently its fairly decent. I guess what I like about Eureka is the party chat that happens and the shout chat usually. Who has time to chat when speed running the same savage dungeon for light.. So I'd be fine with a eureka like content for relic or whatever shiny.

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Stop making it look like the only alternative is tying the Relic to grindy and boring repetitive progress.
The relic can be both a faster to acquire weapon AND be linked to more entertaining or diverse activities. Like a log with clear progressions of exp/light/darkness/whatever but that you know is actually growing and at what rate and you get by doing diversity of stuff, not just ONE method that is clearly way too superior to others.
For all i want, we should be able to get the Relic to "grow" with us by just doing content with it equipped. From killing normal monsters in level cap maps to ultimate trials. Maybe the difference or variety could come from certain "skill checks" along the way instead of merely just "gather something up".

Maybe for the same step:

Dragoon Relic II - Weapon Progress 100/250.
-Defeat Bahamut Ultimate without dying. +50 growth. (idk the fight so idk if this is possible.)
-Defeat Doomtrain Savage without being touched by ghosts. +25
-Defeat Nidhogg EX without being hit by Geirskogul. +15 growth.
-Beat any lv. 70+ dungeon 20 times. +10 growth.

They may even get goals by class.
-Don't let any party member die in a dungeon (ignoring fall damage) . +2 growth.
-Mitigate at least 20% damage from all tank buster attacks in any EX raid. +6 growth
-When engaging more than 3 targets at once, hit all with at least 2 AoE attacks. +1 growth.

(Values above are merely an example. Let's say an Ultimate tier pro should get his relic in a few hours and someone doing hunts/fates/leves/farming/mobing should take arround 3 weeks)

Goals could be so diverse that people by merely playing would go advancing their relic as tools of their use and convenience. This could also be a great incentive to revisit older content and maybe even motivate the players to perform. Obviously, the harder the challenge the faster the acquisition of the weapon would be. That could motivate people to move around through different content to either test their skills, hone them or maybe even growing fond of finding perfect compositions and whatnot.

I'm just wondering why we were able to give our weapon a soul before you know...throwing it in the ocean, never to be seen again outside of glamour.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Tomes needed for less than half the steps is a far cry from "just a tome weapon." Tomes were mostly used as a catch-up mechanic for parts of the relic that were more grindy.

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For the Zodiac weapon, the only steps that didn't require any tomestones were Atma and Nexus.
For the Anima weapon, only the first step was not doable with tomestones, the others all had a tomestone componant, even if they also had a weekly locked other mean of doing it. When it's either "buy each item for 1800 uncapped tomestones" or "get one item each week" sorry, but tomestone is the main way to do it.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

For all i want, we should be able to get the Relic to "grow" with us by just doing content with it equipped.

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Why should the relic be relegated to a secondary incentive ? All other content already have their reward, so why should the relic not have its own content ? From a design standpoint, it's a bad move because you simply take the risk of leading all your playerbase to a single type of content and reducing the scope of what you can do. And if Eureka has proven something, it's that the relic is a worthy incentive to do a specific content while not reducing the participation in other content.