Mahjong is the most depressing mini game you've added to XIV

I was kind of excite because I thought they had reworked Mahjong into being a fast paced mini game... but no they just gave us "Monopoly x100" that real Mahjong is. No thanks. I know people rag on Lord of Verminion, but that is actually fun, easy, and fast. This is a mistake.

It's also been out for three days, and they have a habit of scaling things that don't work out the way expected. Give feedback, and see what happens. I agree that the requirements are too steep currently, and maybe they'll hear us saying that. After all, they updated things like TT drop rates, etc. from some dungeons already.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

It's also been out for three days, and they have a habit of scaling things that don't work out the way expected. Give feedback, and see what happens. I agree that the requirements are too steep currently, and maybe they'll hear us saying that. After all, they updated things like TT drop rates, etc. from some dungeons already.

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That's why I'm refusing to stay quiet about this. Collecting the music scrolls in game was one of my top favorite things to do, besides leveling and chocobo racing, both I already have maxed out. But if I'm going to be walled behind an achievement that other players can actually push me further from, I'm not going to have it.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

It's also been out for three days, and they have a habit of scaling things that don't work out the way expected. Give feedback, and see what happens. I agree that the requirements are too steep currently, and maybe they'll hear us saying that. After all, they updated things like TT drop rates, etc. from some dungeons already.

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it's probably gonna work 'as intended' in JP, while it'll die harder than LoV here in EU/NA. And since the devs only care about JP feedback nothing's gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Bacent

That's why I'm refusing to stay quiet about this. Collecting the music scrolls in game was one of my top favorite things to do, besides leveling and chocobo racing, both I already have maxed out. But if I'm going to be walled behind an achievement that other players can actually push me further from, I'm not going to have it.

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So to clarify, you define an “Achievement” as something that can take an arbitrarily long amount of time, but heaven forbid it require skill, which you could develop? You come off as saying you want to save the princess without clearing the castle. That’s not a game, it’s a cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

So to clarify, you define an “Achievement” as something that can take an arbitrarily long amount of time, but heaven forbid it require skill, which you could develop? You come off as saying you want to save the princess without clearing the castle. That’s not a game, it’s a cutscene.

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The issue is the process can be exponentially longer thanks to rating being back further and further to the point it seems impossible given the length of games and luck required, as such the goal is kicked further and further away from you with no way of reset from where you started.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

So to clarify, you define an “Achievement” as something that can take an arbitrarily long amount of time, but heaven forbid it require skill, which you could develop? You come off as saying you want to save the princess without clearing the castle. That’s not a game, it’s a cutscene.

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And when you're always getting matched against people who have much more skill and knowledge over the game. When you have no clue how the scoring system works. WHEN THIS IS THE ONLY ACHIEVEMENT YOU CAN ACTUALLY LOSE PROGRESS TOWARDS.

I don't care if I need to develop skill to climb the ranks. But you could zero out on your rating before you can ever hope to climb back up due to a HUGE chunk of the player base already being horribly off put by this mini game. If I needed to climb ranks, I'd put a lot more effort into it. When you're shoved further and further away from an achievement you want to get, it's beyond disheartening. Makes you bitter as well when it's the same people you keep getting pitted against, and actually being told by them 'you're bound to lose most of the games to play', it DO NOT HELP in the slightest bit.

Do you think it's fair to lose progress towards an achievement, WHICH NOTHING ELSE HAS IN GAME?

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

The issue is the process can be exponentially longer thanks to rating being back further and further to the point it seems impossible given the length of games and luck required, as such the goal is kicked further and further away from you with no way of reset from where you started.

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So work at it and get better? The concept behind an MMR system is that you will gain or lose points until you’re matched with people of equal skill (which does take time; as was noted above, starting at 1500 creates a cluster of all players together until they’re stratified). So if you’re not good at the game, your rank goes down. You practice against people similar to you, and as you learn, your rank goes up. A 50.00001% win rate will increase your rank, albeit slowly.

Having just finished a game of this now with other players, I must say its even WORSE. Come in third place? You still lose points despite having done well enough to not wind up in last. Not to mention how much luck is required to pull these setups off, I had winning chances any number of times and it just did not happen due to other players getting that lucky 'ron' or 'riichi' out of absolutely nowhere. I somehow pulled off making 12k points at one point but I sure as hell can't tell you how I did it. This game might seem fine if you've played it before but good lord this is player hostile to anyone who is new to it. Anything below second and you basically are screwed out of getting anywhere in terms of that achievement and you can't even rank up at all. I understand that it's partially skill and partially luck but this is a STEEP learning curve for anyone. What in the world were they thinking bringing in this game when only a select number of people will ever have fun with it.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

So work at it and get better? The concept behind an MMR system is that you will gain or lose points until you’re matched with people of equal skill (which does take time; as was noted above, starting at 1500 creates a cluster of all players together until they’re stratified). So if you’re not good at the game, your rank goes down. You practice against people similar to you, and as you learn, your rank goes up. A 50.00001% win rate will increase your rank, albeit slowly.

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I know how an MMR system works and I'm fine with it for it's intended purpose, and even the titles.

The problem at the core is the orchestrion roll is gated behind it.

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Originally Posted by Bacent

Do you think it's fair to lose progress towards an achievement, WHICH NOTHING ELSE HAS IN GAME?

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I guess you’ve never gotten a boss to 1% and then wiped, having to start over? Never spent time in a Battleground thinking you were going to get a win and then fell victim to a comeback? Setbacks of all sorts exist. They may not make a number tick down on the counter on the achievements page, but they can mean that number doesn’t increase in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

I know how an MMR system works and I'm fine with it for it's intended purpose, and even the titles.

The problem at the core is the orchestrion roll is gated behind it.

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The orchestrion roll is a prize. You have to win the game to get a prize.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

I guess you’ve never gotten a boss to 1% and then wiped, having to start over? Never spent time in a Battleground thinking you were going to get a win and then fell victim to a comeback? Setbacks of all sorts exist. They may not make a number tick down on the counter on the achievements page, but they can mean that number doesn’t increase in the first place.

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Ok clearly you are missing the problem.

Rating starts at 1500, it can go BELOW that while your target remains the same.

Bosses reset to the same all the time, infact on some bosses you have a checkpoint.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

I guess you’ve never gotten a boss to 1% and then wiped, having to start over? Never spent time in a Battleground thinking you were going to get a win and then fell victim to a comeback? Setbacks of all sorts exist. They may not make a number tick down on the counter on the achievements page, but they can mean that number doesn’t increase in the first place.

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The two aren't even comparable? A 1% wipe is annoying sure, but it still doesn't set you back that hard. Using any of the raids as an example, if you're on the second phase of say Kefka... You stay at second phase Kefka. Try again and go for it.

With Mahjong, any bit of bad luck and all of a sudden you may find yourself down a few hundred points. That could be from winding up with players who are skilled with the game or in my case the deck of tiles not playing out in your favour. The fact you lose progress towards an achievement is mind boggling. Sure the music scroll is a prize... but in that case why not put it behind something less stupid. Like buying it for MGP or as others have again stated, your rank which does not go down until that second kyu level. Its more feasible to rank up than it is to get your rating up especially when even landing third place nicks you for no reason.

Because the kyu level and your MGP are an indication of nothing but time spent. The entire idea is that you have to get better, not score an occasional win. If you want to argue that they have balanced point gain/loss improperly, then have at it. But this thread entirely seems to be a claim that you deserve a trophy just for playing a whole lot. You don’t.

Can’t edit so I’ll be brief. Game takes too long and on PS4 I have no clue how to cancel a match. Rating (or whatever it is) for orchestrion music can only increase by facing other people and can go negative very easily.

Game is native to Asia so it was obvious that it would die over here after a few days, especially considering March durations.

Please change Orchestrion music acquisition requirements, point system or just plain delete that orchestrion music from there.
This hurts music collectors a lot.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

I guess you’ve never gotten a boss to 1% and then wiped, having to start over? Never spent time in a Battleground thinking you were going to get a win and then fell victim to a comeback? Setbacks of all sorts exist. They may not make a number tick down on the counter on the achievements page, but they can mean that number doesn’t increase in the first place.

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Does any of that give you something to start with, then keep taking away from you the more you don't win? The ONLY thing in that case is losing gear durability. Something easy enough to forget/fix. But no. This you start off with 1500 points that are stripped away every time you play the game and lose against people that either A) Get lucky, or B) Know this game well.

I don't play on an asian server. The crowd is going to get thinner than a drop of blood in the water the longer this game is out. This was implemented terribly. You're also ignoring the fact that this is the ONLY game that you can't do anything for any kind of ranking against NPCs, unlike TT/LoVM. You know, other mini games, not main content like you like to compare it to.

Nowhere near what Verminion was.

It got it's own trailer.

I gave it a go at the novice table, and while I had no idea what was going on I...actually kinda enjoyed it. I won't lie. I'll need to read the "how to play" things later, but I could see myself getting invested a bit. Unlike Lords of Verminion, where I tried it once and only ever used it for my challenge log after. If any minigame is depressing it's LoV.

Chocobo races are also dead, i forgot the last time i raced against someone that wasn't a bot.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Chocobo races are also dead, i forgot the last time i raced against someone that wasn't a bot.

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Haven't looked in detail so ready to be corrected fast here but, wouldn't a key difference there be that you may actually race against AI for whatever you may need vs the issue OP lists? The key point/difference being people are both harder to beat when good and also a limited commodity that seems they're afraid (possibly right) might become scarce? If all is well with AI (like I believe it is) then you don't have much to worry about besides just doing it, meanwhile here it seems like you have to worry about becoming better than people who already know how to play a game (like people who know chess vs not) and then also beat the clock before you can't find people to join in (while also trying to play the content you actually want to play lol).

I'm actually happy about the AI in chocobo races since I don't need to worry about it dying without me babysitting it lol, would like to be able to queue for a bunch of races in a row or a zone of races so I don't need to load in and out a bunch though heh.

Already said what I think would be best for reward distribution here so I don't really have any other suggestion for the thread but just wanted to clarify if that was a similar or not point.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Haven't looked in detail so ready to be corrected fast here but, wouldn't a key difference there be that you may actually race against AI for whatever you may need vs the issue OP lists? The key point/difference being people are both harder to beat when good and also a limited commodity that seems they're afraid (possibly right) might become scarce? If all is well with AI (like I believe it is) then you don't have much to worry about besides just doing it, meanwhile here it seems like you have to worry about becoming better than people who already know how to play a game (like people who know chess vs not) and then also beat the clock before you can't find people to join in (while also trying to play the content you actually want to play lol).

I'm actually happy about the AI in chocobo races since I don't need to worry about it dying without me babysitting it lol, would like to be able to queue for a bunch of races in a row or a zone of races so I don't need to load in and out a bunch though heh.

Already said what I think would be best for reward distribution here so I don't really have any other suggestion for the thread but just wanted to clarify if that was a similar or not point.

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This could be a bit of an issue, for sure. Hopefully they'll allow people to rank up via NPCs eventually even if it's at a slower rate. It's a Gold Saucer minigame. There's not really any reason to lock progress like that. Gold Saucer has always been a time sink.

I tried it and i didnt know it would last forver and could not find exit out of the game while ur in the game xd

So i logged off and logged in xD

Haven't tried it yet myself...after reading this thread I'm tempted to practice on an alt first to avoid tanking my rating while I learn the game.
Here's hoping they change it to allow npc matches to count towards the roll. I feel like this will be a niche activity in NA and difficult to rank up in the future.

Thinking it over, it seems to me that this is inherently an achievement that not everyone can get? If the only way to boost your own rank is to lower somebody else's, people inherently have to get pushed downwards for you to get up there.

I guess you could be nice and deliberately lose after you get the achievement, but that's pretty much all.

Is there a lower limit to where you canned up? Do you start getting extra points for a win eventually? The notes said something about high-ranked players having a bigger penalty for coming last.

I've played 3 games and my rating has already dived down to 1452. What...?

The Mahjong Tutor says:

https://imgur.com/sK5pP8B.png

But I'm not 2nd kyu or higher... (I'm still Novice rank!) so why am I losing any points at all?

And even then it says I'd lose 10 per game... why am I 48 down after 3 games? :S (I see the part about higher ranks lose more points, but I'm right at the bottom of the ranks...)

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

I've played 3 games and my rating has already dived down to 1452. What...?

The Mahjong Tutor says:

https://imgur.com/sK5pP8B.png

But I'm not 2nd kyu or higher... (I'm still Novice rank!) so why am I losing any points at all?

And even then it says I'd lose 10 per game... why am I 48 down after 3 games? :S (I see the part about higher ranks lose more points, but I'm right at the bottom of the ranks...)

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That information only applies to your ranking (the kyu thing)

Rating is the thing that starts at 1500 and you can lose immediately. It's a rather garbage system honestly.

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Originally Posted by Robert_Ilcri

That information only applies to your ranking (the kyu thing)

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Then how does the scoring work for the rating please? I can't see anything from the tutor about it? :S I'm about to come 4th in another game, so I assume I'm about to end up even further from my 1600 goal? :(

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

Then how does the scoring work for the rating please? I can't see anything from the tutor about it? :S I'm about to come 4th in another game, so I assume I'm about to end up even further from my 1600 goal? :(

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First gets 29, second gets 9, third gets -9, and fourth gets -29.

You can see how quickly running into much higher level players/strings of bad luck will entirely screw you out of this achievement.

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Originally Posted by Robert_Ilcri

First gets 29, second gets 9, third gets -9, and fourth gets -29.

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Wow.

So I'm almost too scared to ask, but how low can we go? Zero? Negative?

I can see next week once interest in this has died completely people will just be running the game + 3 trial accounts to get their required rating :S

I wonder if it's against the ToS to sell myself as a 4th place buffer? :D (If I'm already getting that already, it'd be nice to get paid for it too lol)

They need to add a mini-game we westerners can actually play like chess.

I thought, reading the rules, 3rd place was neutral i.e. neither winning or losing points.

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Originally Posted by Krokov

I thought, reading the rules, 3rd place was neutral i.e. neither winning or losing points.

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This is once again for the ranking aspect. Your RANK is a personal thing which starts at Novice and will level up as you get second and first places.

Rating starts at 1500 for everyone and is immediately able to be changed for better or worse. You can see this info under your Gold Saucer tab, but in any case right from your first match win or lose, your rating will change even if your rank does not.

There's not even an MMR system in place so you can easily get farmed by the more skilled mahjong players. I already have the orchestrion and mahjong ethusiast and I can also agree to having the orchestion reward removed from having a ranking requirement to something like "× amount of games won", which makes it way less punishing. The titles can stay as is though.

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Originally Posted by Arya_Leviathan

I can also agree to having the orchestion reward removed from having a ranking requirement to something like "× amount of games won"

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How about "Come 4th or higher in X games" ?

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

How about "Come 4th or higher in X games" ?

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Haha. I think you should be able to at least put in some effort to learn the game, maybe 2nd place or higher × 25 games, I think that's fair.

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Originally Posted by Arya_Leviathan

I think you should be able to at least put in some effort to learn the game

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I don't disagree, but it's a very complicated game. I've played 5 games now, I think I came 3rd in one, 4th in all the rest and I'm down to 1400 (and wondering if that's the lowest I can go, but don't have another hour to spend right now to find out). Still on 0/20 on my rank up.

Dear god, content in a massively multiplayer online RPG that you don't personally enjoy and don't have to complete, that massive amounts of other people around the world adore? What a travesty.

I'm glad they added this, it's not everyone's cup of tea. If someone is truly hardcore about 100%ing the game then this is, indeed, a challenge. Good, it should be.

I find it quite fun and im completely new to Mahjong.
The only thing i would like: Pls give us some MGP for playing.
For example 1. Gets 500, 2. 300, 3. 100, 4. nothing (to avoid afkers)
Maybe even more for pvp.

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Originally Posted by Poisonous

Dear god, content in a massively multiplayer online RPG that you don't personally enjoy and don't have to complete, that massive amounts of other people around the world adore? What a travesty.

I'm glad they added this, it's not everyone's cup of tea. If someone is truly hardcore about 100%ing the game then this is, indeed, a challenge. Good, it should be.

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I think OPs problem is not that its in there at all or that you need to work towards it but more that this achievement might be impossible in the future. He even said that he would be fine if its with ranks or wins because that is something you can work forwards to while the system right now just means that you might never get it, no matter how hard you work. This might be kept alive in asian countries for a long time but I doubt that this will be played much in our part of the world. Thus anyone that wants the rolls might be out of luck.

(Honestly this might just end like some of the LoV or TT rewards that people win traded to get them.)

In the end this is a mini game. A mini game that already takes a huge amount of time to play it. Having such huge losses for last or even third place is just bad imo.