Please Remove Tomestones currency

It's currently way better then what everyone has to do in WoW to gear up right now.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's very much a matter of mindset. Coming from single player games myself, it still seems strange to be expected to keep paying and paying for a game forever. Anything else - I reach the end, I do finish it, and that's it. I've paid the same amount whether I play it over again, or come back to it in a few months, or never touch it again. It could be the best game I've ever played but I don't need to keep paying for it (or playing it non-stop) to show that I like it.

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Calling it pathetic was probably a bit too far. You're right that there are all sorts of players. The problem is that the vast majority of players (and humans for that matter) seem to be utterly obsessed with material rewards. Someone asked how many times I would do something for "fun"? What the hell kind of question is that? I do it for fun. Every. Single. Time. Is there another reason to do anything in a game? What differs are peoples' definition of fun. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to only have fun if they get to see a shiny reward. For these people, they quit as soon as they get their gear set, and so SQEX has to limit the system to keep this playerbase from ditching. As for me? I play for fun and challenge. I do a fight again and again until I get better. Then I make it harder and do it again. And then make it harder and do it again.

Unfortunately, I burn out sometimes too. But not because of a lack of new content or grinding too fast. I burn out because of built-up frustration with the playerbase. Waiting 3-4 hours for a party to solo heal Omega (Savage) in an any-chest party drains the soul. Especially when said party can't even do the mechanics. If I had hosted a 2-chest weekly, people would be all over it. But no - I take out some of the material reward and people avoid the party. The lack of people willing to join anything for the sake of the fight itself rather than rewards, and also the even further lack of talented players of that nature is what drives me to burn out.

If it was removed what should replace it?

Here in FFXIV you have a timegate. Over in WoW you have 'random' and my raid group there had people using leveling gear on key slots like weapon as we entered 'hard mode' of the raid due to the luck of random drops. You'd get that one person who'd get a stack of drops on the first night, and that other person who'd have nothing weeks or months in...

Maybe the current tomestones are not working - all split into so many different types it can get silly... but the basic idea has a LOT of merit to a player like me coming from another game.

I used to run a guild in WoW... you don't want to know how annoying it is to watch your most dedicated, loyal, and studious raid member get nothing, while some new recruit gets it all, and then quits guild for a higher ranking one the next day...

In this game, it feels like as gated as we are, a team of people will usually keep pretty close pace with each other.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

Calling it pathetic was probably a bit too far. You're right that there are all sorts of players. The problem is that the vast majority of players (and humans for that matter) seem to be utterly obsessed with material rewards. Someone asked how many times I would do something for "fun"? What the hell kind of question is that? I do it for fun. Every. Single. Time. Is there another reason to do anything in a game? What differs are peoples' definition of fun. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to only have fun if they get to see a shiny reward. For these people, they quit as soon as they get their gear set, and so SQEX has to limit the system to keep this playerbase from ditching. As for me? I play for fun and challenge. I do a fight again and again until I get better. Then I make it harder and do it again. And then make it harder and do it again.

Unfortunately, I burn out sometimes too. But not because of a lack of new content or grinding too fast. I burn out because of built-up frustration with the playerbase. Waiting 3-4 hours for a party to solo heal Omega (Savage) in an any-chest party drains the soul. Especially when said party can't even do the mechanics. If I had hosted a 2-chest weekly, people would be all over it. But no - I take out some of the material reward and people avoid the party. The lack of people willing to join anything for the sake of the fight itself rather than rewards, and also the even further lack of talented players of that nature is what drives me to burn out.

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You should probably calm down on the pretentious-sounding statements.

There is nothing wrong with doing content for things like chests in the hopes of getting gear, but you’re making it sound like the worst crime that could exist in this game. People’s definitions of fun are different, and people run content for different reasons; there is no “right way” or “wrong way” to do content or play a game. So some only do it because they want BiS. Plenty others do it to chase pretty numbers, or to learn new jobs, or simply because they’re bored. Who cares what people’s reasons are for doing content?

People not joining a solo-heal for current Savage is probably less about the chests and them simply not trusting the solo heal to play out in a smooth manner. For some people, repeated wiping due to deaths gets tiring.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

Calling it pathetic was probably a bit too far. You're right that there are all sorts of players. The problem is that the vast majority of players (and humans for that matter) seem to be utterly obsessed with material rewards. Someone asked how many times I would do something for "fun"? What the hell kind of question is that? I do it for fun. Every. Single. Time. Is there another reason to do anything in a game? What differs are peoples' definition of fun. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to only have fun if they get to see a shiny reward. For these people, they quit as soon as they get their gear set, and so SQEX has to limit the system to keep this playerbase from ditching. As for me? I play for fun and challenge. I do a fight again and again until I get better. Then I make it harder and do it again. And then make it harder and do it again.

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Fun is very subjective, and then there's "satisfaction" as a separate concept to "fun".

It might be satisfying to beat a hard boss and have it "over and done with" but you wouldn't want to put yourself through that difficult battle again. (And coming from single player games, you're not usually expected to beat difficult battles again, unless you start the entire game over.)

Or you might be willing to go through it - or even enjoy doing it - X amount of times to earn the rewards from it (for completion, glamour or whatever reason) but don't have any desire to do it over again when you're not making progress towards that goal. Especially when the format of the game means you're going to do it a lot of times even if you do only do it when you'll make progress.

And it comes down to what people enjoy. I don't really enjoy the high-level gameplay, but I do enjoy being in the game and following the story, and I enjoy playing around with glamours - so that would be my main driving factor for venturing into things like EX primals. But most of the time I just don't do it.

Getting rewards is not "fun" in itself, but getting all the pieces for a glamour idea and seeing it on my character is fun.


And I don't see what the actual problem is with people quitting once they have their gearset, if that's what they want. Obviously it's not what Square Enix wants, because of course they want to keep you subscribed for as long as possible... but for a player doing what they find enjoyable? They did the work, they earned the result, they "finished the game", and they don't have to stay around if they don't want to.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You should probably calm down on the pretentious-sounding statements.

There is nothing wrong with doing content for things like chests in the hopes of getting gear, but you’re making it sound like the worst crime that could exist in this game. People’s definitions of fun are different, and people run content for different reasons; there is no “right way” or “wrong way” to do content or play a game. So some only do it because they want BiS. Plenty others do it to chase pretty numbers, or to learn new jobs, or simply because they’re bored. Who cares what people’s reasons are for doing content?

People not joining a solo-heal for current Savage is probably less about the chests and them simply not trusting the solo heal to play out in a smooth manner. For some people, repeated wiping due to deaths gets tiring.

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And you should stop judging opinion pieces as statements of fact. The purpose of forums is largely to share opinions. The reason I apologized for calling it pathetic was because that was too direct an expression of how I feel about it, and could too easily be taken as an insult.

I literally said "What differs is peoples' definitions of fun." In other words, that fun is subjective. I am not saying anything is "right" or "wrong" as an absolute. All I'm doing is expressing my opinion on the matter like everyone else. Just because I don't write "In my opinion..." before every sentence does not mean it is being argued as an absolute fact rather than my personal opinion. I'm writing responses to share my view on the matter and the frustration I feel about it. That's no different than what everyone else doing.

"I think it's frustrating that so many people people only find fun in material reward, and that, subsequently, there is a lack of players who share the same mindset I do."

Does that satisfy you? Because that's literally all I said, but with stronger language to illustrate the frustration I feel, plus examples from my experience. It may diverge from the immediate topic of tomes versus no tomes, but it is still on topic, as it is related. I'm simply point out that I believe the issue is not possible to solve due to the fact that it has less to do with tomes and more to do with player psychology.

Mendacity tomestones are already not capped. They just reward the gear level which is appropriate for the time it takes to get those tomes.

I'm a bit in between two mindsets on that topic. I get the point of capping, the logic of weekly rest and uncapping when relevant. It works fine for the way the game is designed (at least for endgame).
But...
What if they reinvented the wheel actually? The game has worked relatively fine that way for 5 years, and I'm seeing more and more people "bunrning out" that system by the end of the patch, and by the end of the expansion.
What if dungeons were actually useful? What if we had something else to build except gearing (especially when gear is not mandatory if you don't aim for high end content)? That's something I'd be happy to see the devs work on actually, more than changing the tome system for something else that would end up being the same in a way.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

And you should stop judging opinion pieces as statements of fact. The purpose of forums is largely to share opinions. The reason I apologized for calling it pathetic was because that was too direct an expression of how I feel about it, and could too easily be taken as an insult.

I literally said "What differs is peoples' definitions of fun." In other words, that fun is subjective. I am not saying anything is "right" or "wrong" as an absolute. All I'm doing is expressing my opinion on the matter like everyone else. Just because I don't write "In my opinion..." before every sentence does not mean it is being argued as an absolute fact rather than my personal opinion. I'm writing responses to share my view on the matter and the frustration I feel about it. That's no different than what everyone else doing.

"I think it's frustrating that so many people people only find fun in material reward, and that, subsequently, there is a lack of players who share the same mindset I do."

Does that satisfy you? Because that's literally all I said, but with stronger language to illustrate the frustration I feel, plus examples from my experience. It may diverge from the immediate topic of tomes versus no tomes, but it is still on topic, as it is related. I'm simply point out that I believe the issue is not possible to solve due to the fact that it has less to do with tomes and more to do with player psychology.

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Where am I saying I construed your statements as fact? Nowhere. I said that they sounded pretentious, because you’re treating anything other than what you personally find “fun” as inferior and “not fun”. At least, that’s the impression I get from your wording. That’s the issue I have with your posts. If that wasn’t your intention, then work on your wording, because that’s how it sounds.

The statement I made about the “right” and the “wrong” ways to play a game come from your previous statement, where you say:

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

The underlying issue here is that players grind then quit without these limitations in the first place. If more human beings were less pathetic, they wouldn't need to resort to annoying limitations to hold onto players who apparently enjoy quitting the game they "like" as soon as they "finish" it.

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This makes it sound like anything that isn’t your preferred method is “wrong”, when people have plenty of preferred ways to play a game. None of which are correct or incorrect.

Helluuuuuuuu

I would agree with the option to give a limit to each battle job thus people could gear up more than one job per week, or maybe if you did not reach the limit it will be added to the next week? (But that could lead to a bit of stress too)

Taking them out completely wont be done. First its a way to gate stuff but its also a way to make sure that RNG is not too bad either. The only other way would be through dungeons which makes it RNG. You could run it x times a week and never get a drop or lose it to someone else. With the tomestones you will at least have a goal to work towards to.

So no to taking them out but yes to changing the restriction a bit.

I'm going to try to condense this a bit, let me know if I miss anything important.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Gates are a necessary evil...

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They exist to increase play time, within the current structure of the game. I'd prefer to move away from that structure toward one where the lifetime of content comes from it being engaging more than anything else. Easier said than done, I know, but not exactly impossible. At the very least there are changes that can be made to existing content or concepts.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The only way to do this would be to keep those dungeons out of the Duty finder or scrap the duty finder entirely..

I agree that big open dungeons with lots of choices of routes to take and bosses to fight and stuff would make dungeons much more fun than they presently are. but they wouldn't work in the duty finder.

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I was actually thinking more along the lines of dungeons that remained linear or nearly so, but changed with each instance. There wouldn't be any fighting over what path to take because there would only be one. No one would know exactly what to expect on entering though. The route, enemies, and possibly some of the bosses would be randomized. I suppose you could add a higher difficulty as in HoH that is PF only as well. There you might find ever more features like optional paths and mini puzzles in the dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Deep Dungeon doesn't generate new dungeons. It has a set number of floors with significantly less variance in aesthetic to compensate. This is starkly different from dungeon design. What you're essentially asking for is a No Man's Sky equivalent at an even larger scale than they promised.

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PoTD/HoH don't provide enough variety as they are. I'm not asking SE to copy and paste those algorithms directly into dungeon generators, but to expand them into more capable content creation tools. Perhaps it wouldn't work as a fully automatic process, but could a random generator be setup to address some of the more tedious aspects of dungeon design? SE is better equipped to answer than question than I am, but if it is at all possible I'd like to encourage them to look into it. I'm not demanding something to exacting specifications, I'm no coder, and I don't run SE. It's more suggesting ideas and hoping that a few are viable.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Its called Primal (Extreme).

Another in-between seems unlikely, normal raid exist because people wanted an in-between dungeon and savage, if another step is added people will still want another one between the two and so on.

Savage aren't that hard anyway so pull out a dungeon harder than raid but easier than savage just good luck with that.

Raid isn't about raiding anymore, they basicaly are easy primal fight already because people aren't good enought to do proper raiding.

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But we get 1 Ex Primal per patch and they only drop a weapon.

Normal raids aren't really inbetween dungeons and savage. They're tourist mode, and irrelevant faceroll within a week, you can die over and over and struggle through regardless. After week one I don't see the point of Normal, I'm already 380 and it's just a 10 minute zerg for loot and log off.

Savage is difficult. Casual groups simply aren't Savage capable. However an in-between difficulty could give room to tune Savage even harder. I'd like a difficulty where the entire group can't die 3 times each, do terrible dps and still down the boss. Where something like a casual FC group can spend evenings and expect a few wipes and a bit of progression.

I'd also like some dungeons that are simply tuned to endgame gear. A 375 tuned dungeon for example with Mist Dragon difficulty bosses. I don't think 1 per patch or two and the rest being catch-up is asking too much.

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Originally Posted by Ssmiley_Bjakkzz

well its simple just a different playstyle i would wish for the game and thats not what SE makes and some dont agree for and also for example whats up with gearing up and become strong when you anyways going on with synced down duties, i dont see the point in why that should be, well for those that say it would unbalance the game for other players, then why not lose the chain off the limit requirement party ups of 4-24 players and be able to go run for yourself or with someone than full party, theres unsynced yes but let that be accessable for how you wanna play they game, i pay for the sub for christ sake lol, let me play how i want my game than put in restrictions for you can do that and you cant do this.
Simple said really. FFxiv needs a total re-makeover in my opinion, because its still a fun game envoirment atmosphere of pretty and lore, just system is so messed up.

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Because from a business perspective, this is financial suicide. If you can obtain i400 within the first week, almost everything becomes entirely invalidated. Normal mode, crafting gear, EX Primal weapons and 24 mans are all 100% worthless in terms of rewards. People will complete the content until they're bored, then unsubscribe for the next several months as there's literally no reason to keep playing.

Limitations like tomestone current exist to ensure the game remains consistency active. There isn't a development team alive who can keep up with how quickly content is consumed.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

PoTD/HoH don't provide enough variety as they are. I'm not asking SE to copy and paste those algorithms directly into dungeon generators, but to expand them into more capable content creation tools. Perhaps it wouldn't work as a fully automatic process, but could a random generator be setup to address some of the more tedious aspects of dungeon design? SE is better equipped to answer than question than I am, but if it is at all possible I'd like to encourage them to look into it. I'm not demanding something to exacting specifications, I'm no coder, and I don't run SE. It's more suggesting ideas and hoping that a few are viable.

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An algorithm simply cannot do what you're asking. Even with manual assistance, the devs couldn't create remotely assume content for how quickly it will be consumed. Normal mode raids, for example, are far too nuanced in design for a machine to automate the process, thus it must all be done manually. The current Alphascape tier likely took 3-4 months of development yet Normal mode lasted two hours at most and Savage lasts two to three months tops—weeks if you're in a hardcore group. So even in the most ideal of circumstances, Savage only lasts half the length of a full tier. And only for slower paced groups. Casual content—the bulk what most players partake—doesn't even have a twenty four hour life span. There is simply no way any development team regardless of their budget can keep up with how quickly players clear. Such is why we have limitations on progression.

No. It's how the game is, and perfect as it is.

Just be glad tombstones don't eat up inventory. I wish things you got from omega would go into key-items and stop cluttering my inventory. xD

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

An algorithm simply cannot do what you're asking. Even with manual assistance, the devs couldn't create remotely assume content for how quickly it will be consumed. Normal mode raids, for example, are far too nuanced in design for a machine to automate the process, thus it must all be done manually. The current Alphascape tier likely took 3-4 months of development yet Normal mode lasted two hours at most and Savage lasts two to three months tops—weeks if you're in a hardcore group. So even in the most ideal of circumstances, Savage only lasts half the length of a full tier. And only for slower paced groups. Casual content—the bulk what most players partake—doesn't even have a twenty four hour life span. There is simply no way any development team regardless of their budget can keep up with how quickly players clear. Such is why we have limitations on progression.

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Well now I have to ask what you think I'm asking for, and how you know that it's not possible. Dungeons tend to be cleared quickly, they'll fall in less than a day like you said. My answer to that is not to add a new dungeon to the game every 4 hours. Instead I would like to see more dungeons added per patch cycle and to make replaying those same dungeons less repetitive, along with similar ideas. Let's take The Burn as an example of a semi-automated dungeon. SE would still have to put months of work into coming up with a concept, a theme, testing, and much of what they do already when introducing content. However they could also set aside some parameters to vary with each instance of the dungeon that is run. PoTD already does this with map layout and enemy placement. Perhaps the initial path along the cliffs at the dungeon start would remain the same. The interior portion of the map might be randomized with each run (I imagine it would be easier to do this when you don't have to worry about integrating the map layout with the background scenery). A new path with varying sets of precreated enemies would be generated each time. We could even have multiple paths to explore in a special fixed party mode. Special dungeons that are intended to be fully auto-generated could be added in addition. The downside of this would the cost, in terms of money, time, and resources, to develop this capability. We know that variable content is possible because it's already in the game. What we don't know is how much further SE can expand its content generation tools while keeping them feasible to implement. It might turn out that HoH is all they're able to do and in that case my idea won't work. Evidence showing that to be the case hasn't been presented so far.

A raid boss would be more difficult to generate as they're much more complex than dungeon mobs, but I still don't see why it would be impossible to set them up in such a way that automated process could create variants of the original. Practicality might dictate that these fights are left totally in the hands of the developers, but that's fine. Perhaps SE would have more time to manually add variations to raids if dungeons or other content becomes a little more automated.

Ideally PoTD and HoH would have been testbeds for integrating this into dungeon development. That ship has unfortunately sailed unless that was secretly the intent all along. If SE tried to create something akin to what I've described it wouldn't surprised me if we saw nothing of it until the expansion following Shadowbringers.

Maybe they can provide tanks and healers with the ability to over-cap on the tomestone for the week by 50% or something for roulettes and raids, to promote faster queue times.