Thoughts on how we might go from WoL to WoD

Maybe we are going too far in the whole metaphysical concepts of light and darkness and chaos and order? Wouldn't there still be people killing each other without the gods' guidance?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Maybe we are going too far in the whole metaphysical concepts of light and darkness and chaos and order? Wouldn't there still be people killing each other without the gods' guidance?

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Order and Chaos is not always related to a higher being but a standard for Society as well.

Take FFMobius Season 2 storyline for example. With Season 1 ending the Chaos of Palamecia created by People's blind uncontrolled desire for Hope, the world of Palamecia is now ruled by a Society of absolute Order where everyone's lives are determined by a select few people being the Collective.

It is now Absolute Order where no aspect of Chaos is tolerated (such as freedom to choose your life and choose to cause harm to others out of free will) but people live under a artificial belief of happiness because they are told to be happy where they are in this society by the Collective. However, because of this those in the Collective abuse their power and harm others because by their Role in this Order Society they are the law of the land and only they are allowed to harm others in the name of keeping Order in society even if it is to flaunt their position of power towards people they have control over to keep them obedient or make a example for those who will choose to think for themselves or desire freedom to choose what they want to do with their lives beyond their given roles by the Collective.

Hm...to be honest, I'm not sure that Order Versus Chaos is the strongest or primary theme in Final Fantasy XIV. It's there to some extent with the Garlean/Eorzeon conflict, but at the same time the Eorzeans battle against a more traditional 'chaos' faction, namely the Beastmen. Not to mention that the Garleans are shown to cause more chaos and struggles than their 'savage' counterparts, and they were created as a tool to do just that. Each of the Eorzean factions tend to have a mix of 'order' and 'chaos within them. The Lominsans are simultaneously pirates who favor freedom and the most dictatorial of the city states. Gridania has the order that comes from intensely religious societies ruled by immortals, but carry the trappings of chaos through their less directly organized nature, wearing furs, and having groups of random hunters and poachers around. Even Ishgard has a storyline about using the 'chaotic' militia to bring more order through the formation of the city watch.

Heavensward, which has an 'evil order' faction in the shape of Thordan and the corrupt elements of the Church still has our characters serving Ishgard for the most part, and trying to stop both sides. They aren't so much opposed due to their ideology as much as endless cycles for vengeance and desires for power. And there's really no evidence that light equals order or darkness fully equals chaos, even if the Ascians cause it and the heroes of light restore order. Namely because half the time those same heroes of light are instead tearing down corrupt order which kind of breaks that conflict a bit.

Unlike franchises such as Warhammer (whatever flavor) or the Shin Megami Tensei series, Order Versus Chaos does not appear to be the primary dichotomy of FFXIV. Catastrophes are caused by traditional 'chaotic' groups like the Heretics or the Ishgardian Rebellion and by traditional 'order' groups like Garlemald. It's more of a sub-theme if anything, and explored in various directions depending on the scenario. Light and Dark seem more like overwhelming physical forces, and Hydelyn herself seems to be more based around benevolence and free will than protecting some standard of order in the universe. The game tends to focus more on forgiveness, individual conflicts, and tolerance versus intolerance than grander themes of Chaos versus Order.

But that's just my opinion ha ha.

The stinger in the 4.5 trailer brought back my initial idea that the first shard had somehow become a threat to the source and we'd need to be doing something stop that.

I can't imagine that voice being anyone other then Zodiark or an Ascian with their perspective that the star (Whatever it is they're referring to by that) is a "fraudulent existence" coupled with them being capable of anchoring a shard to the source (Presumably so we can travel there more easily), so if we're having to work with an agent of the dark to prevent a greater disaster from happening, that would be an easy explanation for us being the WoD instead of the WoL.

I think after we fight Zenos-Elidibus, Solus will just waltz in and do something bad that'll force us to go to the dark side. I still can't decipher the meaning behind "Throw wide the gates, so that we may pass." Hopefully 4.5 Part 2 will answer that.

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Originally Posted by AdamuKun322

I still can't decipher the meaning behind "Throw wide the gates, so that we may pass."

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Probably a big hint:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...War_Of_The.png

It would be funny if those words the voice was saying weren't meant to be taken literally and were in fact just an incantation for a teleportation spell as they were in FFT.

Perhaps all that's needed is for someone to recite them...or that could be how the Scions are being spirited away and that our Echo-reinforced minds are too stubborn to be dragged off to who knows where.

I'm pretty sure it is a Teleportation Spell. Only from the sound of it, whoever is casting it has had to cast it many times. Maybe because they messed it up somehow? or keep going to the wrong places?

If it were just the incantation to a teleportation spell, I can't fathom why the Scions (and only the Scions) are hearing it and it's leaving them comatose.

There's almost definitely some temporal shenanigans afoot, but I couldn't say what exactly just yet.

We already know that you can't travel to another shard without relinquishing your physical form (As far as we know, at least), so I'm thinking someone at the first shard needed to inform the Scions of something, but couldn't adequately explain things from a distance, so they instead opted to pry their minds away for a time (Thancred seems to get better at some point in 4.5 judging from the trailer, so I'd assume they'll all be back by the end of part 2 of the MSQ).

I'd assume that whatever spell or other aetherial shenanigans they're relying on isn't easy to pull off, which is why they're only nabbing a Scion or two each time.

The thing is, the Ascians have been yammering on about opening a 'gate' since ARR's story - remember Lahabrea's hammy comment after defeating Rhitahtyn at Cape Westwind during Operation Archon?

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Originally Posted by FFXIV ARR Main Scenario Quest 'Operation Archon'

Lahabrea: "Look, Hydaelyn- your minion comes... bringing the Light."
Lahabrea: "Alas, the gate to the void already stands open. Soon, Darkness shall consume all, and you shall bow down to the one true god! AHAHAHAHA!!"

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So really, this kind of talk from them is hardly original, hells, I'm not even convinced the next Calamity being a Flood of Light is even true, and just misinformation touted by the Ascians and their agents deliberately to sow confusion, strife and distrust with us and Hydaelyn out of desperation because we can now destroy their ilk for good.

I mean, look around, the world is hardly drowning in Light, Hydaelyn is a crapsack world of the highest order with Darkness tearing everything up, and our victories hard-won affairs that ultimately do little to stop the Darkness unravelling whatever little advances towards light we make (the only major inroads against the Darkness itself we've made have been the complete destruction of several Ascians), so, until I am shown Hydaelyn Herself telling us that we're too powerful in the Light and to please tone it down a notch, I'm regarding this whole affair as nothing but Ascian propaganda.....

Maybe I'm just in denial though....

Interestingly, that's one of the "deliberate misinformation" / "deliberate vaguery" ones. Lahabrea's talking about an interdimensional rift. Perhaps the Chrysalis?

I have played FFXIII-2 just now and to use the time travel, Serah needs to have an affinity with the chaos (as the encyclopedia in game says) which she has.
So in FFXIV, because our light and darkness are tied to order and chaos, and we need to change the history, so maybe we need to embrace darkness to be able to use the time travel (if it's a thing in Shadowbringers).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

I mean, look around, the world is hardly drowning in Light, Hydaelyn is a crapsack world of the highest order with Darkness tearing everything up, and our victories hard-won affairs that ultimately do little to stop the Darkness unravelling whatever little advances towards light we make (the only major inroads against the Darkness itself we've made have been the complete destruction of several Ascians), so, until I am shown Hydaelyn Herself telling us that we're too powerful in the Light and to please tone it down a notch, I'm regarding this whole affair as nothing but Ascian propaganda.....

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Hear, hear. Dear lord, whether you take "Light" to represent order or goodness, BOTH are in mighty short supply from what we've seen! And yet, we're supposed to believe we're on the bleeding edge of a Flood of Light? If that's the case, then a "balanced" world sure would be a terrible place to live...

It's part of the reason that I believe there's a strong chance that we're going to be adventuring on the First Shard - a place ALREADY flooding with light, and the details of how it got that way conveniently obscured - and THAT'S why we're going to have to don the mantle of Darkness for a time. Whether that will be most, or only part of the reason we become the Warrior of Darkness, I do not yet know. But it sure doesn't seem like we're in dire need of more Darkness on the Source!

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

I have played FFXIII-2 just now and to use the time travel, Serah needs to have an affinity with the chaos (as the encyclopedia in game says) which she has.
So in FFXIV, because our light and darkness are tied to order and chaos.

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I wrote a longer post about this in either this thread or another (please excuse this poor holiday-addled brain) but there is really nothing to suggest that Light and Darkness represent Order or Chaos. The servants of the dark have sown chaos yes, but they've also supported bastions of 'order' like Garlemald. Far more important is the fact that our heroes, representing Light, fight to destroy corrupt order like Garlemald or the Ishgardian Orthodox Church just as much as they fight chaotic forces like wild beastmen tribes or mischievous Acians. Order versus Chaos is a powerful theme in lots of series like Warhammer (all of them) or the Shin Megami Tensei games, but it does not seem to be a primary theme in FFXIV. I think there's a fair bit of trying to jam square pegs into round holes here.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

We already know that you can't travel to another shard without relinquishing your physical form (As far as we know, at least)

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I'd like to point out that in the Crystal Tower storyline, we DO travel with our own bodies to The World of Darkness, aka The Void, formerly the 13th, through an interdimensional portal of sorts. Though at the same time, it might be hard to fit The Void into the same set of 'rules of travel' binding the intact shards.

Counterpoint: The barrier between two shards is double-sided and thus much thicker and much more rigid. A clumsy comparison, but imagine being underwater and coming to the surface to find the empty air versus getting to the surface and finding all the weight and pressure of another ocean pushing against that boundary. The membrane between the Source and void even shifts and tiny holes appear naturally from time to time, and we can cut into it using "only" an extraordinary amount of energy (see: Void Ark). However, to hit another shard requires a Calamity, and opening that barrier at all seems to instantly re-merge our worlds - as if two bubbles are colliding and becoming one - and unmake everything from the copy in the process. Xande was using the Crystal Tower to prop open a small gate to the empty space where the Thirteenth once was.

Ah okay that makes sense. But this made me remember another question. Does a Calamity only need to happen on the Source for it to absorb another shard? I always assumed if it was a 2-way barrier, a calamity needed to happen on the target shard as well, which is why the Ascians are plotting in the shards in the first place. Otherwise, why did Igeyhorm raise all that chaos on the 13th, why did Mitron try to do things on the 1st?

Unconfirmed, but I assume that chaos is wrought on both sides of the barrier betwixt worlds, causing maximum disruption and creating specific circumstances. Once the crescendo hits, a trigger is pulled, so to speak, and we both get the Calamity, but their world is destroyed by it.

Then going along with the 'calamity on both sides' line of thinking... Does a world in the midst of a Flood (either Light or Dark) count as having their aetherial-spacial-or-whatever barrier disrupted enough to be absorbed? Arbert and co. were intent on having another Calamity occur on the Source, because they believed the 1st would be the shard to be rejoined. Of course, they received second-hand information from Elidibus, and Elidibus is a snake that doesnt give the full picture most of the time.

As Moose said, the requirement for dual Calamities is unconfirmed. Ascian meddling on other Shards doesn't necessarily mean that the Ascians are priming those other Shards for calamities. It could be that the Ascians there are simply working to keep those Shards in Balance, so they do not Flood either way before a Rejoining has the chance to occur. Igeyorhm failed in this task hardcore.

The fact that the Warriors of Darkness believed that their world could be Rejoined to the Source to salvage what souls remained implies that yes, either a calamity on the shard is unnecessary, or a Flood qualifies as a calamity. However, it also bears remembering that Elidibus was the one who lead them to that conclusion, and his trustworthiness is suspect. It could be he was simply willing to write the First off as a loss, and recruited powerful warriors from that shard to assist in causing a calamity to absorb some other shard.

However, it's also possible that Elidibus was sincere, and that he DID want to "save" the First through a Rejoining (if only because it'd be a waste to let a perfectly good shard fall to a Flood).

We honestly do not have enough information on what it takes to cause a Rejoining to do more than speculate.

It feels a bit more apparent as to why we're going to become the WoD

now that we know that an excess of light is warping the Source's aether in a way that Solus seems to be intending to exploit to cause a calamity.

We're the brightest light around, so if that's something the Ascians plan to use to their advantage, then it would make sense for us to just turn it off and make the shift to the dark until balance has been restored.

Though that still leaves the how of this WoD business.