A Suggestion for Dark Knight moving into 5.0/Eventual Rework

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The only part I'm on board with is making Darkside a trait.
I mean, it's just always on anyway, except for when you forget it.

I'm sure Grit and Blood Weapon could be handled better too. At least have Blood Weapon cancel Grit, instead of having to first deactivate Grit and then use Blood Weapon.

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Of course, I don't expect any of these changes to pass. It is and has been apparent some are not interested in this thread beyond a quick laugh, but I hope I can eventually compile enough information to refine the data here.

I want to add some personal anecdotes to this thread, because I play both WAR and DRK extensively, and I'm also a dungeon aficionado.

I play with my healer buddy, and I know I've made mention of this person in previous posts in other threads, but they do run a parser. However, they haven't really played in a few weeks, so i can only give out results from 4.3.

That said, by the end of the dungeon I've noticed the results are fairly consistent, and they should be given that I play the same way every time on both tanks. But normally on WAR I'll do something like ~5k, while on DRK i'll do something like ~4.5k. To me, that difference doesn't allow to say DRK is suffering in the dungeon department.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

I want to add some personal anecdotes to this thread, because I play both WAR and DRK extensively, and I'm also a dungeon aficionado.

I play with my healer buddy, and I know I've made mention of this person in previous posts in other threads, but they do run a parser. However, they haven't really played in a few weeks, so i can only give out results from 4.3.

That said, by the end of the dungeon I've noticed the results are fairly consistent, and they should be given that I play the same way every time on both tanks. But normally on WAR I'll do something like ~5k, while on DRK i'll do something like ~4.5k. To me, that difference doesn't allow to say DRK is suffering in the dungeon department.

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Thanks for the input, but OP was updated.

-Needs a 3rd combo tree, preferably adding a dot similar to goring blade for PLD.
-TBN needs to be on a 12 sec cd or lower allowing for more synergy with other defensive cds. It's meant to imitate IB/FC which takes six gcd's, or roughly 15 secs to get 50 gauge but IB/FC can be used simultaneously back to back while TBN cannot. DRK's mitigation and dps will naturally increase with this change.
-A doom counter over head to indicate to the party when Living Dead expires.
-Blood Weapon is an MP regen healing 40% of your mp over 15 seconds.
-Give DRK's Sanguine Blade. Cost 50 blood gauge and heals 100% of dmg dealt. DA buffed.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

-Needs a 3rd combo tree, preferably adding a dot similar to goring blade for PLD.
-TBN needs to be on a 12 sec cd or lower allowing for more synergy with other defensive cds. It's meant to imitate IB/FC which takes six gcd's, or roughly 15 secs to get 50 gauge but IB/FC can be used simultaneously back to back while TBN cannot. DRK's mitigation and dps will naturally increase with this change.
-A doom counter over head to indicate to the party when Living Dead expires.
-Blood Weapon is an MP regen healing 40% of your mp over 15 seconds.
-Give DRK's Sanguine Blade. Cost 50 blood gauge and heals 100% of dmg dealt. DA buffed.

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-with i miss the old delirium i dont want a copy paste of goring blade or anything like that, i preffer the old sistem where delirium was better until you have DASE.
-wothless except you want to use it agains AA, TBN have already enough synergy with a lot of skills, increese the shield duration will only serve to use it against AA in every content efectively but make you harder to handle you blood without overflowing it.
-apreciated indicator but we preffer a total rework of the skill, DRK is the only one that can't use his inmortality and survivie on solo content
-blood price better, blood weapon generate a lot more MP that a 40% of our total mana pool in that duration and blood price is almost useless and never used his full duration except mass pulling if you dont drop grit.
-and for last DRK dont need another 50 cost gauge skill, in any case reduce the cost so we can have something to control our gauge better and prevent overflowing more easily.

Rather than create a new thread I'm just going to go ahead and post this here, but I've been thinking a lot about how DRK could be reworked to be more interesting and gradually came up with a completely redesigned skillset to try and address what I feel are the job's weak points and improve on it. This is just a fan redesign so I'm not saying this is definitely how it should be, but I thought I'd go ahead and share it anyway since I put a lot of thought into it.

First of all, the main issues I see with DRK as it currently stands are:
- The job's basic rotation is not much fun due to only having one DPS combo.
- The blackblood system feels shallow and tacked-on as part of a forced effort to give every job a new gauge mechanic.
- The job is overly focused on oGCD use compared to other tanks.
- The job rotation doesn't flow elegantly compared to other tanks (cooldowns don't naturally line up, it can be hard to figure out what abilities you should be using).
- The defensive skills are too situational compared to other tanks.

That said, I think the basic idea of a job which expends MP in order to empower their skills is a pretty good one and fits with the general class concept of DRK as a self-sacrificing fighter. I think it's also possible to incorporate a gauge mechanic which is more interesting and meshes better with the rotation.

So, here's the basic outline of the skills. Note that all actions are instant and have a 3y range unless otherwise stated. Also all action names, potencies/durations/etc and descriptions can be easily changed; some existing actions could be reworked instead of the new ones I've provided.

Core traits (i.e. passive skills):

Darkside - Increases damage dealt by 20%. Prevents natural MP regeneration during combat, as well as MP regeneration caused by allies. Also causes MP to drain slowly during combat, at a rate of 2% base MP every 3 seconds. If MP reaches 0, the DRK will suffer a 20% reduction to damage dealt for 10 seconds.
(Notes: This is intended to bring back the mana management aspect of DRK but without having Darkside as a clunky separate ability that needs to be switched on/off. It also still only applies in combat instead of the weird situation in Heavensward where you were constantly draining MP but also still had your natural regeneration. To prevent unfair MP loss during fight downtime, the drain effect stops if the DRK uses no actions for 9 seconds.)

Soul Mastery - Allows for the accumulation of Soul Shards. Soul Shards are earned when using certain actions while in combat. Soul Shards are used to enhance or enable certain actions. The DRK may hold up to 5 Soul Shards at once.
(Notes: Soul Shards effectively replace the Blood system. Together with Dark Arts they are intended as a way to make the DRK toolkit more engaging by offering more interesting rotational weaponskills, while also allowing for Dark Arts to be used on situational abilities without DPS loss.)

Grit - Increases maximum HP and benefit of healing magic by 20%, but reduces damage dealt by 20%. Also multiplies all enmity generated. Cancelled by the effects of Souleater.
(Notes: Grit is now a trait, and instead of reducing damage received it grants extra HP and recovery like WAR. I'll explain this in the next section.)

Core abilities:

Dark Arts - Applies a buff which will enhance certain actions. Buff fades after applicable action is used. Costs 25% base MP.
(Notes: Most Dark Arts effects no longer boost potency directly. Instead they provide other enhancements, but also often grant soul shards to offset the MP cost and opportunity cost of not using Dark Arts on certain skills. For the most part, you can now use Dark Arts on just about any of the skills it empowers without worrying about whether it's a DPS loss, which allows for more interesting situational uses of Dark Arts. Due to the new design relying a lot on the Soul Shard system, Dark Arts is unlocked at a later level, alongside a trait which grants actions their Dark Arts effects.)

Souleater - Removes the effect of Grit, reducing maximum HP, increasing damage dealt, and reducing generated enmity. Lasts until cancelled and persists through KO. Has no activation cost, but once activated it cannot be deactivated until at least 15 seconds have passed.
(Notes: This is how Grit is changed. Instead of Grit being activated separately, instead DRK's tank stance is always active as a trait, and instead they activate an ability to turn it off. This is intended to make DRK closer to their traditional identity: actively giving up HP for more damage. It also makes them slightly more unique compared to the other tanks. The name Souleater is stolen for this skill, since in earlier FF games Souleater is the ability DRK uses to deal extra damage at the cost of their own HP.)

Core Weaponskills

Hard Slash - 150 potency. Combo starter. 60TP

Spinning Slash - 230 potency. Combos off Hard Slash. Increases enmity. 60TP.

Power Slash - 300 potency. Combos off Spinning Slash. Increases enmity. Dark Arts effect: Grants a Soul Shard, and doubles enmity generated. 60TP.

Syphon Strike - 250 potency. Combos off Hard Slash. Restores 18% base MP. 60TP.
(Notes: Grit no longer increases MP restored. MP restored is generally increased to compensate for Darkside's gradual MP drain, but is generally less than it currently is in Grit. Both this and the fact that it no longer has a Dark Arts effect, is intended to cut down on Dark Arts spam.)

Soul Rend - 300 potency. Combos off Syphon Strike. Grants 1 Soul Shard. Dark Arts Effect: Grants an additional Soul Shard and absorbs a portion of damage dealt as HP. 50TP.
(Notes: Effectively replaces the old Souleater. The HP absorb effect now applies with or without Grit, but can potentially grant additional HP in Grit.)

Soulbreaker - 280 Potency. Combos off Syphon Strike. Consumes a Soul Shard in exchange for an additional 70 potency of damage (for a total of 350). 50TP.
(Notes: This is the new third combo ender, it's intended as a spender for Soul Shards when you have nothing else to use them on. Effectively replacing Bloodspiller. I wanted to have a third combo that wasn't just a timed buff or debuff like WAR and PLD, so I think this helps separate DRK a little bit while still maintaining a simple tank kit.)

Scourge - Standalone weaponskill. Applies a damage over time effect with a potency of 40, lasting 30 seconds. Requires and consumes 1 Soul Shard. Dark Arts effect: DoT lasts 36 seconds. No TP cost. Doesn't break combos.
(Notes: Brings back an old favourite from the HW DRK kit and incorporates it into the rotation more cleanly. Scourge is one of the priority skills for spending Soul Shards and it's also something you always want to use Dark Arts on since it's a bigger effective DPS gain than other uses of DA.)

Unleash - Standalone weaponskill. 100 potency to all enemies within 5y of the DRK. Increases enmity. Dark Arts effect: Grants a Soul Shard, and increases radius to 7y. 120 TP.
(Notes: Unleash is changed to a weaponskill instead of a spell so that it's not competing with Dark Arts for DRK's main resource of MP. It now functions as both the basic AoE enmity and AoE damage skill sort of like WAR's Overpower, but with additional AoE skills to supplement.)

Spells:

Abyssal Drain - Deals 120 potency of unaspected damage to target and all enemies within 5y of target. Absorbs a portion of damage dealt as HP. Requires and consumes 1 Soul Shard. No MP cost. 15y Range, 5y radius. Doesn't break combos.
(Notes: This is what you spend your built up Soul Shards on in AoE. Instead of requiring the huge expenditure of both Dark Arts and the spell's own MP cost to get the HP restore effect it instead provides it natively, and the skill is instead limited by Soul Shards.)

Salted Earth - Creates a patch of salted earth, dealing unaspected damage with a potency of 30 to any enemies who enter. Lasts 21 seconds. Range: 15y. Radius: 5y. Cost: 20% of base MP. Only one Salted Earth effect can be active at once.
(Notes: Salted Earth is changed to a spell, which means although it no longer has a cooldown, the new potency, MP cost, and opportunity cost of requiring a GCD means that you should still wait out its duration, and also that it's only really worth using when fighting groups of enemies. This is intended to make the skill itself more interesting while also cutting down on DRK's oGCD reliance.)

Unmend - Deals unaspected damage to target. 150 potency. Increased enmity. 15y range. Costs 5% base MP.

Rotational/Offensive Abilities:

Blood Weapon - Reduces auto-attack delay, weaponskill and spell recast time by 10%. Reduces TP costs by 10%. Causes successful physical attacks to generate MP (6% base MP per hit). Attacks which hit multiple enemies do not multiply MP generated. Lasts 15s. Cooldown: 45s. Shares a cooldown with Blood Price.

Blood Price - Causes physical attacks made against the DRK to generate MP (2% base MP per hit). Enemies who strike the DRK also receive retaliation damage of 20 potency. Lasts 18s. Cooldown: 45s. Shares a cooldown with Blood Weapon.
(Notes: Blood Weapon and Blood Price can now be used irrespective of tank stance, but since they share a cooldown you can't use them both at once. The intention is for Blood Weapon to be used on single targets while Blood Price is intended for tanking groups. Blood Price's MP regeneration has also been buffed to make it much more worthwhile.)

Plunge - Leap to target and deal 200 potency damage. 15y range. Cooldown: 30s. Dark Arts effect: Grants a Soul Shard and increases range to 20y.

Dreadblade - Deals 350 potency damage and grants the Dark Arts status. Cost: 25% base MP. Cooldown: 60s.
(Notes: This effectively replaces Carve and Spit and to a lesser extent Dark Passenger. Instead of just having another oGCD skill which you always want to use with Dark Arts, this effectively combines the Dark Arts usage with the ability, reducing button spam while also providing the Dark Arts status so it serves as a nice simple priority skill in the rotation.)

Delirium - Consumes all Soul Shards and grants a buff which lasts 3 seconds for each Soul Shard consumed. While this buff is active, all weaponskills and spells will automatically apply their combo bonuses and dark arts effects, without the need to perform the preceding combo actions or use Dark Arts. Cooldown: 90s.
(Notes: Greatly changed from the current Delirium which I feel is hopelessly boring and barely even worth using. This new ability serves as your big Soul Shard spender while also changing up the DRK's rotation slightly, like the big cooldowns for PLD and WAR do. Note that it only applies to weaponskills and spells, not abilities. This is to give you something to spend MP on while Delirium is active and also to eliminate any kind of DPS penalty for failing to line up your DPS oGCDs with Delirium)

Situational/Defensive Abilities:

Soul Sacrifice - Restores 10% of the DRK's Max HP. Consumes 1 Soul Shard. Cooldown: 5s.
(Notes: A simple defensive usage for Soul Shards, equivalent to something like Clemency or Equilibrium but with a unique DRK twist. You could say this replaces Sole Survivor which I think is a lame skill even after the recent buffs.)

Endure - Reduces damage received from the next incoming attack by 10%. Consumes 1 Soul Shard. Stacks up to 3 times, each stack granting an additional 10% damage reduction. Lasts 10s. Cooldown: 1s. (Adding another stack does not refresh the effect duration)
(Notes: Endure is intended to replace The Blackest Night as the "temporary mitigation on a short cooldown" ability, which I felt was too complicated and which would also be hard to work with the DRK's new HP-boosting tank stance. I tried to make it distinct from Sheltron or Inner Beast but still similarly useful, and I liked the idea of the DRK mitigating damage simply by taking a hit head on and enduring it through sheer willpower.)

Reprisal - Reduces target's damage dealt by 10% for 10s. Cooldown: 90s. Dark Arts effect: Grants a Soul Shard and increases damage reduction to 15%.
(Notes: Reprisal is DRK exclusive again and serves as their group mitigation tool, equivalent to something like Shake It Off or Divine Veil. It lasts longer compared to cross-role Reprisal but has a slightly longer cooldown too.)

Shadow Wall - Reduces damage taken by 30%. Lasts 10s. Cooldown: 120s.

Dark Dance - Increases parry rate by 30%. Lasts 20s. Cooldown: 60s. Dark Arts effect: Successful parries have a 30% chance to generate a Soul Shard.
(Notes: I brought Dark Dance back as a cheap, low-power defensive cooldown. It has basically the same function as Anticipation so it's not all that useful defensively, but the new and improved Dark Arts effect means that it can potentially be a big boost when tanking groups of enemies. I also thought this was a balanced way to bring back the lost element of parry procs.)

Dark Bargain - Immediately sacrifices the DRK's HP equivalent to 15% of their current maximum HP, in exchange for a healing-over-time effect which will restore 40% of the DRK's maximum HP over the next 24 seconds. Cooldown: 90s. (Cannot be used if current HP is less than 15% of maximum)
(Notes: This effectively replaces Dark Mind, which I felt was too binary. Either you were fighting a boss with heavy magic damage and Dark Mind was great, or you weren't and Dark Mind was useless. Dark Bargain gives DRK a more generally useful, middle-of-the-road defensive cooldown with a distinct DRK flavour in giving up HP for future benefits.)

Living Dead - Applies Living Dead effect, lasting 10 seconds. If an attack would reduce the DRK's HP to 0 while this effect is active, they instead survive with 1HP and the Living Dead effect is replaced with the Walking Dead effect, lasting 10 seconds. While Walking Dead is active, most attacks will not reduce the DRK below 1 HP. If the DRK is restored to at least 80% of their maximum HP while Walking Dead is active, the effect is dispelled and nothing further happens. If the Walking Dead effect expires and the DRK is below 80% of their maximum HP, they temporarily turn into a zombie, becoming unable to move or act for 10 seconds. Cooldown: 240s.
(Notes: Living Dead is changed to be a bit less penalizing compared to the other invincibility skills. You now only need to be restored above 80% HP instead of to 100%, and failing to do this just causes a 10 second stun/zombification instead of outright death. The cooldown is also shortened.)

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Originally Posted by PangTong

Unleash - Standalone weaponskill. 100 potency to all enemies within 5y of the DRK. Increases enmity. Dark Arts effect: Grants a Soul Shard, and increases radius to 7y. 120 TP.
(Notes: Unleash is changed to a weaponskill instead of a spell so that it's not competing with Dark Arts for DRK's main resource of MP. It now functions as both the basic AoE enmity and AoE damage skill sort of like WAR's Overpower, but with additional AoE skills to supplement.)

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So you turned Srk in a 4 resource Job and made DRK aoe harder which is currently what is working best for them? Also did you nerf mana generation and I didnt saw it because otherwise it shouldn't be an issue.

Harder perhaps only in the sense that it's maybe a little less powerful. In actual execution it's much easier and less complicated. MP regeneration is nerfed a little bit mostly in the change of Delirium and addition of draining MP, which is done mostly to cut down on Dark Arts spam. The reason I don't like DRK's current system of AoE is because everything is competing for MP. Abyssal Drain costs MP, but it costs additional MP to boost it with Dark Arts, so you're giving up additional casts of AD for the sake of the HP restoration, which usually isn't worth it. The current system has Quietus to restore MP but to get Blood while AoEing you're mostly looking to use Blackest Night, which ALSO costs MP and is therefore also competing with Abyssal Drain. And you also have Dark Passenger, which also requires a massive MP expenditure for only a marginal damage advantage. DRK's AoE is strong, but it's far from easy to understand or use well.

If your main AoE skill doesn't cost MP then you're free to use Dark Arts with it without worrying about whether it's limiting later casts, but there's still some decision making since Salted Earth is also a spell so you have to prioritize your MP into keeping it up.

There are still only 3 main resources and that's if you count TP which I don't really. Most people don't really think of TP as a central PLD resource but you'll still run out if you spam Total Eclipse.

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Originally Posted by Speaks

Salted Earth double click/tap to cast at user's feet.
Return Scourge as a proc based attack, base the proc on something that doesn't require main tanking to work.
Make Blood gain consistent vs right now where overcapping is too easy.
Give us interesting ways to spend blood, preferably in smaller increments.
Likewise with mana, overcapping is too easy currently.
Darkside as a trait.
Blood Weapon overhauled to make it more interactive.
Reduce Dark Arts treadmill.

Thanks to those who gave feedback that was constructive, and good luck to DRK players in 5.0

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OP seems to have changed. Quoting for context. Each reply is numbered based on original line of portion of quote being responded to.

1. This seems fine, but it'd hardly warrant a DRK-unique change. I'd suggest convenient special-targeting measures be added for all target-less skills come 5.0, allowing you to auto-place on or snap to Target, Self, or Focus Target, ideally via a context menu on the skill as listed in Actions&Traits.
2. I'd need a more detailed example.
3. I'd need a more detailed example. Blood gains are consistent as is. Manipulating the gains procedure to level out rate of growth would technically be inconsistent. There is also little risk of overcapping once experienced in the job.
4. Spitball: Revise Delirium. Make it your situationally best and generally worst spender for Blood, but rather than being a cooldown it's now a drain effect, causing you to continuously spend a continuously increasing amount of Blood in order to augment your Blood Weapon or Blood Price and reduce the rate at which their durations fade. Make the Mana and Blood gains from Blood Weapon and Blood Price both based on relative potency dealt or taken, respectively. Cause Bloodspiller and Quietus to act as if affected by Blood Weapon, but also to stack with its effect, and The Blackest Night to act automatically as if affected by Blood Price, but also to stack with its effect.
5. Revise Darkside. Wrap its % Damage multiplier into baseline potencies. Instead of increasing damage flatly, Darkside will cause you to consume up to 50% more mana based on your current %MP to deal up to 25% more damage. *Exact values to be tuned for consistent damage efficiency but greater burst, to be avoided when banking damage, and to be used when bursting or securing AoE threat.* "Allows excess mana generation to briefly increase your maximum MP, allowing for further power." (Generating excess mana will briefly increase your maximum MP, at an efficiency which decreases based on current excess, which then continuously fades back to normal. This current mana of this portion will be counted, but not the maximum, allowing you to burst to a height of, say, 120% MP, for a total of 60% bonus mana expenditure and 30% bonus damage on mana-based Spells and Abilities.)
6. See [5].
7. See [4].
8. See [4] and [5].